Newtonian eschatology

[TomL]

Don't worry.
If you're actually ready, it'll happen so fast you won't have time to protest its secretiveness.

I will say this....
Jesus instructed us to be ready, and to pray always that we may be accounted worthy to escape what's coming on the earth and to stand before the Son of Man.

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Looking forward to seeing you there! We who are excited about his secret coming keep at it.

read scripture

1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 (NASB 2020) — 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

resurrection and rapture happen together accompanied by a shout and a trumpet at the second advent

 

[SteveB]

read scripture

1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 (NASB 2020) — 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

resurrection and rapture happen together accompanied by a shout and a trumpet at the second advent

Resurrection of the godly who've died in Christ.

Nothing about those who perished in unbelief.

 

[TomL]

Resurrection of the godly who've died in Christ.

Nothing about those who perished in unbelief.

Resurrection of all

Matthew 25:31–46 (ESV) — 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


John 5:28–29 (ESV) — 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Jude 14–16 (ESV) — 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

 

[SteveB]

Resurrection of all

So, Paul lied?
Why did you quote him then?
He doesn't say ALL. He explicitly stated
1Th 4:14-18 WEB 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

there's nothing about the ungodly dead.
it's entirely about the godly who've died in Christ.

Matthew 25:31–46 (ESV) — 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


John 5:28–29 (ESV) — 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Jude 14–16 (ESV) — 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

 

[TomL]

So, Paul lied?
Why did you quote him then?
He doesn't say ALL. He explicitly stated
1Th 4:14-18 WEB 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

there's nothing about the ungodly dead.
it's entirely about the godly who've died in Christ.

Er you ignored all these which show all being raised and/or judged

Matthew 25:31–46 (ESV) — 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


John 5:28–29 (ESV) — 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Jude 14–16 (ESV) — 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

 

[SteveB]

Er you ignored all these which show all being raised and/or judged

Nope. I haven't ignored any of them.
Here's the thing I've learned over the past several decades.

---

When one passage appears to contradict another, or several other the way you're looking at it is wrong.

---

In this case, you assume there is a single resurrection.
the passages we're looking at aren't the only ones.
there are others in the old testament.

The bible describes 2 distinct resurrections.
The godly in Christ Isaiah 26, 1 Thessalonians 4.
The rest of the human race at the end, with the great white throne judgment. The passages you are using and Revelation 20.

Matthew 25:31–46 (ESV) — 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


John 5:28–29 (ESV) — 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Jude 14–16 (ESV) — 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

 

[Frank Russell]

1Th 5:1-10 WEB 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that anything be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. 3 For when they are saying, “Peace and safety,” then sudden destruction will come on them, like birth pains on a pregnant woman. Then they will in no way escape. 4 But you, brothers, aren’t in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief. 5 You are all children of light and children of the day. We don’t belong to the night, nor to darkness, 6 so then let’s not sleep, as the rest do, but let’s watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep in the night; and those who are drunk are drunk in the night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let’s be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Having been there when he taught about the topic, we regularly heard, and were taught the importance of being ready.
We were explicitly and repeatedly told that nobody knows the day/hour. We can however know the times and seasons, we read above.

I'm still learning to follow Jesus. As are numerous other people who were around then.

I suppose we simply received sufficient grace and knowledge that we weren't led astray by those who were pissed off that 1988 came and went.

The passage is saying we can know the signs, that's what Jesus taught to "watch" for.

The pentecostal addage of "but we can know the times and seasons" sounds a lot like the snake in the garden: "Did God really say that?"

 

[TomL]

Nope. I haven't ignored any of them.
Here's the thing I've learned over the past several decades.

---

When one passage appears to contradict another, or several other the way you're looking at it is wrong.

---

In this case, you assume there is a single resurrection.
the passages we're looking at aren't the only ones.
there are others in the old testament.

The bible describes 2 distinct resurrections.
The godly in Christ Isaiah 26, 1 Thessalonians 4.
The rest of the human race at the end, with the great white throne judgment. The passages you are using and Revelation 20.

You assume rev 20 is speaking of another resurrection ignoring the verses which speak off a general resurrection of all

Matthew 25:31–46 (ESV) — 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
this shows all are assigned their eternal destinies at the advent of Christ


John 5:28–29 (ESV) — 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


This shows a simultaneous resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous

as does this

Daniel 12:2 (ESV) — 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Jude 14–16 (ESV) — 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

This show all are judged at Christ advent

resurrection and judgment are all at the last day

John 6:39–40 (ESV) — 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:44 (ESV) — 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 11:23–24 (ESV) — 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

the resurrection is at the last day

John 12:48 (ESV) — 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

judgment is at the last day

You err by using the very symbolic book of revelation to contradict many plain didactic texts

 

[SteveB]

The passage is saying we can know the signs, that's what Jesus taught to "watch" for.

The pentecostal addage of "but we can know the times and seasons" sounds a lot like the snake in the garden: "Did God really say that?"

Times and seasons never meant "day and hour" to me.
Perhaps the problem you're having is that you learned eschatology from a different church than I did.

We were always taught-
Times and seasons means that we can see biblically described events unfolding around us.

Eg,
Israel is back in their ancestral lands.

Regional nations, and people groups described in the Bible as being part of the final collection of major battles are increasingly connecting with one another.

Germany is making agreements with Turkiye, Iran, Russia. Kings of the east are coalescing into an economic community, and are turning against the west.


Communication technology is increasing dramatically. We can now see middle east news in seconds, if nor instantaneously.


The use of "chip" technology is increasingly popular.

AI is growing exponentially.

Globalization is becoming increasingly popular. People who prefer the USA as it was, People who refer to themselves as patriots, lovers of the constitution, bill of rights, personal responsibility, and numerous other things that are distinctly America, are now called terrorists by the president, extremists, and a few other choice terms. My own state's Senator has called those who fight for unborn children, to stop abortion has been calling us extremists for months now.

We're further described as Christian Nationalists.
all these terms are used in a distinctly derogatory and malicious application.


These things and a lot more would be things I'd consider falling under the "times and seasons" heading.

Do any of these give me a day/hour?
Not the last time I checked.


But, you go right ahead. Please tell me how they would.

They might give me a range of a few years.

I do think that most of these things just require a catalyst to make happen.

I don't think that AI is mature enough to actually work at the level it appears to be described in Revelation 13.
It could be, but I don't think so.

They need it to be "human" enough to successfully deceive people at a really large number.

I think too many people can still tell the difference.
In another few years... maybe not.

Remember... this has to succeed at the global level.

But as Jesus said in Luke 21:34-36... throw a serious catalyst in the mix.... BOOM!
"It'll come as a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of the earth."

I can't imagine a more effective catastrophe than the rapture/harpadzo.

I can't imagine that so major an event would make things take long to reassess, and bring all the ideas together to achieve their one world government and civilization.

I'm presently waiting on AI to see how quickly it "grows up."

I encourage you to pay attention to the world around you.
And as Jesus said in Luke 21:34-36....

Get ready!
Get set!
Don't dilly dally!

As Jesus also said...

Seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness...

 

[SteveB]

You assume rev 20 is speaking of another resurrection ignoring the verses which speak off a general resurrection of all

Matthew 25:31–46 (ESV) — 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
this shows all are assigned their eternal destinies at the advent of Christ


John 5:28–29 (ESV) — 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


This shows a simultaneous resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous

as does this

Daniel 12:2 (ESV) — 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Jude 14–16 (ESV) — 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

This show all are judged at Christ advent

resurrection and judgment are all at the last day

John 6:39–40 (ESV) — 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:44 (ESV) — 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 11:23–24 (ESV) — 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

the resurrection is at the last day

John 12:48 (ESV) — 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

judgment is at the last day

You err by using the very symbolic book of revelation to contradict many plain didactic texts

Tom, this discussion is over.

Go back and play in your own ops.
I stopped engaging you in discussion because you made it clear that you have no interest in learning how others see it.

So. Bye!

 

[TomL]

Tom, this discussion is over.

Go back and play in your own ops.
I stopped engaging you in discussion because you made it clear that you have no interest in learning how others see it.

So. Bye!

I am interrested in how the bible extols truth not in various opinions which do not address scriptures when given

You assume rev 20 is speaking of another resurrection ignoring the verses which speak off a general resurrection of all

Matthew 25:31–46 (ESV) — 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
this shows all are assigned their eternal destinies at the advent of Christ


John 5:28–29 (ESV) — 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


This shows a simultaneous resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous

as does this

Daniel 12:2 (ESV) — 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Jude 14–16 (ESV) — 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

This show all are judged at Christ advent

resurrection and judgment are all at the last day

John 6:39–40 (ESV) — 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:44 (ESV) — 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 11:23–24 (ESV) — 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

the resurrection is at the last day

John 12:48 (ESV) — 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

judgment is at the last day

You err by using the very symbolic book of revelation to contradict many plain didactic texts

 

[SteveB]

I am interrested in how the bible extols truth not in various opinions which do not address scriptures when given

If this was true, you'd seek to understand why others view the topics differently.
Yet you don't.
So I know you don't hold that view as you claim.

You err by using the very symbolic book of revelation to contradict many plain didactic texts

It's ironic how many people buy this claim.
The book of Revelation is 404 verses.
There are over 800 allusions to the old testament.
This means that everything contained in Revelation originates in the old testament.
Thus, the purported symbolism are biblical.

https://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/41/

 

[civic]

Hey! I was there!
That was supposed to have been the end of the tribulation.
Admittedly, I'm grateful because my wife and a number of friends hadn't yet been saved.

I'm thinking that both you and I will be in eternity by 2060, so I'm good.

my mother in law went to his church in alameda, we lived 15 miles from there. I use to listen to his "open forum" call in program often back then as he had his own radio station in the Bay Area.

 

[TomL]

If this was true, you'd seek to understand why others view the topics differently.
Yet you don't.
So I know you don't hold that view as you claim.

It's ironic how many people buy this claim.
The book of Revelation is 404 verses.
There are over 800 allusions to the old testament.
This means that everything contained in Revelation originates in the old testament.
Thus, the purported symbolism are biblical.

Newsflash I know your view as I was taught it.

I once believed it.

However, I came to realize it was unbiblical.

 

[SteveB]

Newsflash I know your view as I was taught it.

AS YOU WERE taught it.

I once believed it.

Pity you paid more attention to other people.

However, I came to realize it was unbiblical.

AS YOU WERE TAUGHT...
From the way I was taught and read... your way has too many holes in it and ignores or tries twisting things to fit.
As I didn't come here to have arguments with people, I walked away from talking to you.

As it's highly likely I'll be going home in another 25 years, I'll let you alone with your own devices.

 

[TomL]

AS YOU WERE taught it.

Pity you paid more attention to other people.

AS YOU WERE TAUGHT...
From the way I was taught and read... your way has too many holes in it and ignores or tries twisting things to fit.
As I didn't come here to have arguments with people, I walked away from talking to you.

As it's highly likely I'll be going home in another 25 years, I'll let you alone with your own devices.

Funny as you fail to address the many scriptures and ops contrary to your view

 

[SteveB]

Funny as you fail to address the many scriptures and ops contrary to your view

They were previously addressed.

How many times do you require their discussion before you recognize that you're just beating a dead horse?

Moreover, how many times do you want to be told that I'm not interested in arguing with you about your views?

 

[Frank Russell]

Times and seasons never meant "day and hour" to me.
Perhaps the problem you're having is that you learned eschatology from a different church than I did.

We were always taught-
Times and seasons means that we can see biblically described events unfolding around us.

Eg,
Israel is back in their ancestral lands.

Regional nations, and people groups described in the Bible as being part of the final collection of major battles are increasingly connecting with one another.

Germany is making agreements with Turkiye, Iran, Russia. Kings of the east are coalescing into an economic community, and are turning against the west.


Communication technology is increasing dramatically. We can now see middle east news in seconds, if nor instantaneously.


The use of "chip" technology is increasingly popular.

AI is growing exponentially.

Globalization is becoming increasingly popular. People who prefer the USA as it was, People who refer to themselves as patriots, lovers of the constitution, bill of rights, personal responsibility, and numerous other things that are distinctly America, are now called terrorists by the president, extremists, and a few other choice terms. My own state's Senator has called those who fight for unborn children, to stop abortion has been calling us extremists for months now.

We're further described as Christian Nationalists.
all these terms are used in a distinctly derogatory and malicious application.


These things and a lot more would be things I'd consider falling under the "times and seasons" heading.

Do any of these give me a day/hour?
Not the last time I checked.


But, you go right ahead. Please tell me how they would.

They might give me a range of a few years.

I do think that most of these things just require a catalyst to make happen.

I don't think that AI is mature enough to actually work at the level it appears to be described in Revelation 13.
It could be, but I don't think so.

They need it to be "human" enough to successfully deceive people at a really large number.

I think too many people can still tell the difference.
In another few years... maybe not.

Remember... this has to succeed at the global level.

But as Jesus said in Luke 21:34-36... throw a serious catalyst in the mix.... BOOM!
"It'll come as a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of the earth."

I can't imagine a more effective catastrophe than the rapture/harpadzo.

I can't imagine that so major an event would make things take long to reassess, and bring all the ideas together to achieve their one world government and civilization.

I'm presently waiting on AI to see how quickly it "grows up."

I encourage you to pay attention to the world around you.
And as Jesus said in Luke 21:34-36....

Get ready!
Get set!
Don't dilly dally!

As Jesus also said...

Seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness...

I think that's the issue with solo scriptura theology. that is basing a doctrine off of just one scripture.

There's another passage with a similar meaning at the beginning of acts, the apostles when they saw Jesus were very interested in whether he would re-establish Israel at this time.

However, Jesus replied that the times and seasons set by the father are none of your business, but to go preach the gospel to the ends of the earth.

So today, with a church in decline, we see a deep focus on eschatology that centres coincidentally on a return of an Israel. We also see a lack of actual evangelism and growth of the church.

This will not be the end of the Church Jesus is building, just the one of the children of disobedience.

 

[SteveB]

I think that's the issue with solo scriptura theology. that is basing a doctrine off of just one scripture.

Yeah. The church fellowship I've attended from the start has an exposition philosophy.
We call it- 20-20, book by book, chapter by chapter and verse by verse.
20 verses before and 20 verses after.
You're the first I've heard refer to sola scriptura as building an entire doctrine on a single verse.
I'd always thought it was from Genesis to Revelation.

There's another passage with a similar meaning at the beginning of acts, the apostles when they saw Jesus were very interested in whether he would re-establish Israel at this time.

However, Jesus replied that the times and seasons set by the father are none of your business, but to go preach the gospel to the ends of the earth.

Not quite "none of your business."

it says-
Act 1:7-8 WEB 7 He said to them, “It isn’t for you to know times or seasons which the Father has set within his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. You will be witnesses to me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth.”

So today, with a church in decline, we see a deep focus on eschatology that centres coincidentally on a return of an Israel.

I think the "decline" you refer to is a twofold problem.
1- bad teaching (this includes a lot of different things).
2- people who do get what Jesus says are simply choosing to live after the dictates of their own desires.

I won't deny there could be other elements, but these appear to be the most obvious.

We also see a lack of actual evangelism and growth of the church.

So, the question arises... are you actually evangelizing, or are you merely throwing a wrench into the works to deflect culpability?

This will not be the end of the Church Jesus is building, just the one of the children of disobedience.

Ok.

 

[Frank Russell]

Not quite "none of your business."

it isn't for you, is quite equivalent to it is none of your business.

Since the church in general is disobedient on such a foundational concept, bad teaching would be an understatement.