Kingdom Law verses Heavenly Grace

The post proves otherwise.

Then the OT is not nonexistent, as is claimed in the op.

Yep. You should try that sometime.
BEST lol of the day so far AND i never said it was "nonexistent"

The OT is NON Binding = it has been vacated by the LORD who gave it AND took it's penalties upon His Body on the Cross

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.
And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

keep the posts about the posts and not the posters. Admin

You better go see a Specialist on that.
If you cannot find one, i know of One who can help you.
 
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That is not an answer to the question asked. First of all, none of those verses is Jesus speaking. All three of them are from Paul's writings, not Jesus teaching.
Everything Paul teaches is the Lord Jesus' teachings (Act 9:6, 6). When Christ said, "it shall be told thee what thou must do" (v 6), it involved all the Scripture he wrote, along with what he said and did.
 
Would you please show me where scripture necessarily infers the millennial kingdom is only for God-believing, Jesus-not-believing Jews of Israel?
It's directly inferred in many prophecies, esp. Jer 31;31-33; Eze 36:24-27. It speaks of the "house of Israel" in Eze 36:32. The entirety of Chapter 36 speaks of "the mountains of Israel," which is hyperbolic for "children of Israel."
Would you please provide a brief explanation why for why you prefer Dispensationalism as a means of parsing scripture over other alternatives?
Dispensational just means "a dispensing" or distributing.
 
BEST lol of the day so far AND i never said it was "nonexistent"

The OT is NON Binding = it has been vacated by the LORD who gave it AND took it's penalties upon His Body on the Cross

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.
And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

i think you suffer from 'Techtonic Platelet Disease' for you are showing the symptons of it...............

You better go see a Specialist on that.
If you cannot find one, i know of One who can help you.
That's not an answer to the question asked.


I have asked the question three times. Three times I have received a response but none of the responses actually answer the question asked. I, therefore, will spend no more time with you on this question. I will, instead, ask you not to interfere further with @NetChaplain's effort to answer my questions. It's his op, he can speak for himself, and it's his answers in which I am interested.
 
Everything Paul teaches is the Lord Jesus' teachings (Act 9:6, 6). When Christ said, "it shall be told thee what thou must do" (v 6), it involved all the Scripture he wrote, along with what he said and did.
That is true but this op does not claim Paul taught three dispensations. This op claims Jesus taught that. I asked my question specifically based on what was stated in the op and I am seeking an answer that question based on that claim. My exacting question may not (yet) be valued but, if nothing else, it may aid in being more objective and exegetic with scripture and not teach things to others that can't or won't be proven succinctly with scripture. If you're actually a chaplain, then you understand yours is a heavier burden (Jms. 1:3). My questions are valid, op-relevant, and valid. I'm appreciative of the op's use of Gill (who was not dispensationalist), Barnes, and Benson but the truth is Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, was hard-core Dispensationalist. His book, "Dispensationalism," is, imo, the single best book on the subject (and I have read many), but he is not the measure of kingdom law or heavenly grace.

Let me, again, express my appreciation for the few questions that were answered, answered directly, immediately, and succinctly. On this occasion, however, Paul is not equal to Jesus; it was claimed Jesus taught the three were dispensations, and the question asked has not been answered because I did not ask about Paul. Think of me as an old Christian asking you questions as if I were exploring the option of sitting under your leadership, measuring your answers as posted against scripture as written.

You were at your best when you posted, "There's no direct Scripture word-for-word about the Millennial being only for Israel, but it is often inferred," because that's an actual answer to the question asked, it's factual and it's honest. Do more of that :cool:. At this point, I think it would be best if you just came right out and acknowledged the over-statement, and posted an amendment to the op, letting everyone know Jesus did not actually teach the Law, the new covenant, or the millennial kingdom were dispensations. I also think it would best serve the (unstated) purpose of the discussion of this "devotional" if the inherent and specifically Dispensationalist point of view (not one shared by most of Christendom) was acknowledged. But I'll leave that up to you.


Then we can discuss why it is believed Dispensationalism is what we should all be believing when discussing "Kingdom Law [versus] Heavenly Grace." Otherwise, give the question asked one more try:


Would you mind showing me where Jesus calls any of those a "dispensation"?

.
 
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That's not an answer to the question asked.


I have asked the question three times. Three times I have received a response but none of the responses actually answer the question asked. I, therefore, will spend no more time with you on this question. I will, instead, ask you not to interfere further with @NetChaplain's effort to answer my questions. It's his op, he can speak for himself, and it's his answers in which I am interested.
(Edited) is worse then i originally thought for you cannot SEE the Simple Scriptural TRUTH that was written for children.

(Edit), and he is lost in Dispensational heresies to which he thinks is Bible Gold!!!
Climb to Higher Ground and it starts by humbling yourselves at the Feet of JESUS.

keep the posts about the posts and not the posters. Admin
 
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It's directly inferred in many prophecies, esp. Jer 31;31-33; Eze 36:24-27. It speaks of the "house of Israel" in Eze 36:32. The entirety of Chapter 36 speaks of "the mountains of Israel," which is hyperbolic for "children of Israel."
No, it is not directly inferred.
Dispensational just means "a dispensing" or distributing.
No, it does not.


Would you like me to cite some of the founders of Dispensationalism defining a dispensation?
 
it's ok, but I don't think we're understanding one another.
Are you understanding the words I post? Is there some difficulty apprehending what's posted? If so then just ask and I will gladly clarify what I can for your understanding. Otherwise, keep the posts about the posts, not the posters. The op says Jesus taught the three are dispensations and you were asked to provide evidence for that statement..... from Jesus. We're two pages of posts into this conversation and that hasn't happened.

I will, therefore, mark that down as 1) a baseless claim that 2) comes accompanied with an inability or unwillingness to prove the claim.


How about one of the other still-outstanding inquiries? Where does scripture define Israel as Jews that believe in God but not Jesus?

.
 
Worth Repeating.


Every Christian form I've ever been on the members disrespect each other day in and day out. I call it walking in the flesh. Oh yes I've been guilty of being quite good at it. The Holy Spirit helped me realize how my behavior towards my brothers in Christ is going against what Jesus called me to do. I wasn't alone in that change of behavior my partner in this forum was going through the exact same thing. And that's how we came up with our goal and vision for this forum. We're going to keep working on our goals to provide A safe loving and caring place to share our faith. Part of that is not allowing posters to disrespect or call each other names. We expect our members to follow the rules that they agreed to when they joined BAM. All we're asking is be polite and follow the rules.

It is sad when Christians fall short of the standards of etiquette that the world has come to take for granted. As Christians, we need not feel out of place in terms of the natural graces that are expected between human beings because hopefully we have been taught to be courteous.

Paul says this: “Love has good manners. Love is courteous. Love is not rude.” Replay some of the recent tapes in your mind of your conversations with your wife, husband, or parents. How effectively you communicated the truth is not the issue. All of us can get our point across, but you can say all of the right things and say them in the wrong way. We need to examine ourselves before God. Is our love rude or is it courteous? And when we find out the answer, the good news is that God communicates this to us not so He can put us under a load of guilt and conviction, but so He can show us a better way! Courtesy is the better way. May God help us apply it to our hearts.
 
Heb 7:18,19; 8:7; 10:9


The Father's covenant is with His Son (Heb 13: 20, 21), nowhere does it show a covenant with Christians; they are just recipients of the covenant.

When there is little direct Scripture concerning a doctrine, many commentators use the method of "inference," e.g. the Covenant of Redemption was inferred when the Lord Jesus said, "For this is My Blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Mat 26:28).

I would suggest looking up the Covenant of Redemption.
Keep those devotions coming my friend :)
 
Christ’s teachings can be a little difficult because He taught three dispensations simultaneously (Law, New Covenant, Millennial Kingdome). Of course the Law, since Christ’s ascension has been “taken away” (Heb 10:9; 7:19; 8:7-13; 12:27, 28). Nevertheless, there will be a New Covenant for Israel in eternity on the New Earth (Jer 31:31-34; Eze 36:24-28). It must also be understood that the millennial kingdom is only for the Jews of Israel—God’s people (i.e. the Jews that believe in God but not in the Lord Jesus - “Ye believe in God” - Jn 14:1). This was His plan for them, even through all the “motions of sins” (Rom 7:5), which resulted in disobedience. Until His ascension, the Law was still in force, thus much of His teachings involved the Law while at the same time teaching and preparing Christians for the New Covenant, which involve all the aspects of that which will be in eternity.

Most are unaware that God has no covenant with man—the OT in now nonexistent, and He has never had a covenant with Christians, but for Christians. Presently, the Christian covenant is that which is made between the Father and the Son, in that the Father agreed to raise His Son from the dead after procuring redemption for those believing in the Lord Jesus. This is the “Covenant of Redemption,” which is the “Everlasting Covenant; and Christians are not covenanters with God but are recipients of saving-grace in this Covenant. There are numerous Scripture passages which indirectly indicate this Covenant, the primary being Hebrews 13:20, 21. Israel will remain on the New Earth, while Christians will rule them with Christ from “the throne of His glory” (Mat 19:28) in the New Heaven.
NC






Kingdom Law verses Heavenly Grace


As certainly as the message of “the kingdom heaven” was consistent with Israel’s national hope, so also the rule of life presented in connection with this message by both John the Baptist and Christ was in harmony with the OT-predicted kingdom’s rule of life. The kingdom as foreseen in the OT had ever in view the righteousness of life and conduct of its subjects (Isa 11:3-5; 32:1; Jer 23:6; Dan 9:24).

“The kingdom of heaven” as announced and offered in the early part of Matthews’ Gospel is also accompanied with positive demands for personal righteousness in life and conduct. This is not the principle of grace (the law was graceful but not of the Grace which came with Christ—NC); it is rather the principle of law (works—NC). Kingdom teaching extends into finer detail of the Law of Moses and never ceases to be the very opposite of the principle of grace. Law conditions its blessings on human works, grace conditions its works on divine blessings.

Law says, “If you forgive . . . your heavenly Father will also forgive you,” and in that measure only (Mat 6:14, 15 - in Grace, God forgives all believers in His Son, without condition other than faith, and causes them to desire to “please” Him - Phl 2:13—NC). Grace says, “Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake has forgiven you” (Eph 4:32). So, again, the law says, “Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Mat 5:20). This is not present condition for entrance into heaven. Present conditions are wholly based on mercy: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us” (Tit 3:5).

So the preaching of John the Baptist, like the Lord’s Sermon on the Mount, was on a law basis as indicated by its appeal, which was only for a correct and righteous life: “Then said He to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of Him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

“And the people asked him, saying, what shall we do then? He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto Him, Master, what shall we do? And He said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. And the soldiers likewise demanded of Him, saying, and what shall we do? And He said unto them, do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages (Luk 3:7-14).

Those messages were an appeal for a righteous life and cannot be confused with the present terms of salvation without nullifying the grounds of every hope and promise under Grace. The present appeal to the unsaved is not for better conduct (morality is not godliness, but the godly will be moral—NC); it is for belief in, and acceptance of—the Savior! There are directions concerning the conduct of those who are saved by trust in the Savior, but these cannot be mixed with the law conditions of the OT, or the grace of NT, without peril to souls.

Later on, the same people said to Christ, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” To this He replied, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent” (Jn 6:28, 29). John the Baptist looked forward to the blessings of grace when he said, “Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin is the world,” but his immediate demands were in conformity with pure law, as were the earlier kingdom teachings of the Lord Jesus. Thus the legal principles of conduct of the OT-predicted kingdom are carried forward into the revelations of the same kingdom as it appears in the NT.

It should be borne in mind that the legal kingdom requirements as stated in the Sermon on the Mount are meant to prepare the way for, and condition life in, the earthly Davidic millennial kingdom when it shall be set up upon the earth, and at that very time when the kingdom prayer, “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven” has been answered. These kingdom emphases appear in the early ministry of the Lord Jesus, since He was at that time faithfully offering the Messianic kingdom to Israel (Christians do not need the Messianic kingdom nor the new earth—NC).


It has been objected that such stipulations as “Resist not evil,” “Whosoever shall smite on thy right cheek . . .,” “Whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile . . .” and “. . . persecuted for righteousness’ sake” could not be possible in the kingdom. This challenge may be based upon a supposition that the earthly Messianic kingdom is to be as morally perfect as heaven. On the contrary, the Scriptures abundantly testify that while there will be far less occasion to sin, for the sufficient reason that Satan is then bound and in a pit and the glorious King is on His throne, there will be need of immediate execution of judgment and justice in the earth, and even the King shall rule, of necessity, with a “rod of iron” (Christ and Christians will be correcting sinners during the Millennial kingdom—NC).

It is said that “all Israel will be saved” (see notes at bottom—NC), and “They shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest” (Jer 31:34). But it is also revealed that at the end of the millennium, when Satan is loosed for a little season, he is still able to solicit the allegiance of human hearts and to draw out of the multitudes within the kingdom an army for rebellion against the government of the King (Rev 20:7-9). In that kingdom dispensation “the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed” (Isa 65:20).

These kingdom commands and principles were given to Israel only (as was the Decalogue—NC), and it is the same distinct nation that shall stand first in her predicted kingdom when it is set up on the earth (present old earth—NC). The Lord Jesus was first “a minister of the circumcision” (Rom 15:8). Consequently, is it an unnatural interpretation of Scripture to understand that He was performing this divinely appointed ministry at the very time when He was offering the kingdom to the nation and when He, with His forerunner (JTB—NC), was depicting the principles of conduct that should condition life in that kingdom (Mat 3:1, 2)? Nothing is lost by such an interpretation (the Millennial kingdom remains intact and the Christian attributes unmixed with law—NC). On the contrary, everything is gained for the riches of Grace, which alas so few apprehend (most are unfamiliar with these truths concerning Israel’s millennial kingdom—NC), are thus kept pure and free from an unscriptural admixture with the law (keeping the laws of the Millennial kingdom and eternal New Heaven teachings separate—NC).

—L S Chafer (1871-1952)






NC Notes:

John Gill (1697-1771):
“And so all Israel shall be saved,....”; Meaning not the mystical spiritual Israel of God, consisting both of Jews and Gentiles, who shall appear to be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation, when all God's elect among the latter are gathered in, which is the sense many give into; but the people of the Jews, the generality of them, the body of that nation, called "the fulness" of them, Romans 11:12, and relates to the latter day, when a nation of them shall be born again at once; when, their number being as the sand of the sea, they shall come up out of the lands where they are dispersed, and appoint them one Head, Christ, and great shall be the day of Jezreel; when they as a body, even the far greater part of them that shall be in being, shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their King; shall acknowledge Jesus to be the true Messiah, and shall look to Him, believe on Him, and be saved by Him from wrath to come.

Albert Barnes (1798-1870):
“All Israel”; He does not mean to say that every Jew of every age would be saved; for he had proved that a large portion of them would be, in his time, rejected and lost. But the time would come when, as a people, they would be recovered; when the nation would turn to God; and when it could be said of them that, as a nation, they were restored to the divine favor.

Joseph Benson (1749-1821):
And so all Israel shall be saved Shall be brought to believe in Jesus as the true Messiah, and so shall be put into the way of obtaining salvation, being convinced of the truth by the coming in of the Gentiles.



MJS daily devotional excerpt for October 17

The true servant is finally subdued, but not stultified; prepared but not deprived of individuality. All that is rendered inoperative is the old man—and thank God for that! -MJS

“When we are finally prepared, our Lord says: ‘When I died, you died. When I went to the Cross I not only took your sins, but I took you. I not only took you as a sinner, but I took you as being all that you are by nature; your good as well as your bad; your abilities as well as your disabilities; yes, every resource of yours. I took you as a worker, a preacher, and organizer. My Cross means that not even for Me can you be or do anything out from yourself; but if there is to be anything at all it must be out from Me, and that means a life of absolute dependence and faith.’“ -T. A-S.
(more . . . http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/day/2024/10/17/)
The Tanakh is still valid and relevant as is the B'rit Hadashah. The Mosaic Covenant is eternal. All the Covenants in the Tanakh remain in force.
Shalom
 
I will give you credit for the effort, and I very much appreciate the succinctness of the post, but Post #34 does something that is very common among Dispensationalists: It takes a single verse that has the word "dispensation" in it, removes the verse from its context and asserts the verse in a manner completely unrelated to the point of inquiry and discussion. And it does not answer the question asked. I did not ask for Paul's words. I did not ask about the gospel.

The question is asked was, "Would you mind showing me where Jesus calls any of those a 'dispensation'?" and you quoted Paul, not Jesus. You also quoted a verse labeling the gospel a dispensation, not one of the three things you listed earlier; not any of the three things I asked specifically about.

  • Can you provide me with a verse where Jesus, not Paul, called the Law a dispensation?
  • Can you provide me with a verse where Jesus, not Paul, called the new covenant a dispensation?
  • Can you provide me with a verse where Jesus, not Paul, called the millennial kingdom a dispensation?


The irony is that if the gospel is a dispensation, then that dispensation reaches very far back into the Old Testament and is not limited to the New Testament era. We know this because Paul also wrote the gospel was preached to Abraham (and God dealt with Abraham and his descendants of promise according to gospel precepts). So, I ask you again...



Would you mind showing me where Jesus calls any of those a "dispensation"?


A Chaplain teaching others presumably knows the answers to these questions and has the faculties necessary to post correct answers without further delay.
 
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