I have never said that I wanted any credit. That's something you invented.
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Need a reason to believe Calvinists are who they claim to be?
- Thread starter Titus
- Start date
For what it is worth, the KJV was not the first English version. Again, for what it is worth, we have more of the early manuscripts, copies of the original, available to us today than they had when those first English translations were generated.
@civis
And, we must also ask: pray, tell me the difference between Jesus' faith and his obedience that was imperative for him to be the spotless Lamb of God sacrificed for each and every one of God's elect. The scriptures also clearly teach:
So by the obedience of one~The obedience of one man ~ Jesus Christ ~ made the many related to him righteous ~ all God’s elect.
Imputation ~ God charged men with sin or righteousness by the act of another ~ here it is Jesus. That why each and every child of God seeks to be justified through Christ alone, his perfect life of obedience/faith that alone secured eternal life for us~ we dare not trust in any work that we have done, for by the works of the law, no man will be justified in his sight.
It is by his life of perfect faith and obedience that any are justified ~ we believe in Christ for our free justification by what he did as a man. The very life that we live in flesh, we live by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ, for our right to eternal life in the world to come.
We declare unconditional salvation from here, for faith and works are only evidence of salvation. The obedience of Jesus Christ includes all He did to obey His Father, but especially to die for us.
Romans 5:19 is as strong as any statement in Scripture of salvation by the free grace of God in Jesus Christ.
We all are guilty for Adam’s sin whether you know, believe, accept, receive, obey God or Adam. No one needs not accept Adam as your personal sin representative to be judged for Adam’s sin. If you never hear of Adam, or you deny his existence when you hear, you will die by his sin.
God's elect are legally justified by Jesus’ obedience the very same way ~ imputation and representation. Faith or obedience on our part is only evidence Jesus Christ obeyed for us; it has no more cause-effect for eternal life than do your sins have a cause-effect for imputation death by Adam. This is the only doctrine of salvation that can save infants, idiots, and any others consistently.
If you add your obedient faith or works of any kind, you make salvation by obedience of TWO! If you add witnessing of a soul winner, you then make salvation by the obedience of THREE! If you add an organist pleading with you, you then make salvation by the obedience of FOUR! If you add a prayer warrior seeking souls, you then make salvation by the obedience of FIVE! If you add a giver paying a preacher to beg sinners, you make salvation by the obedience of SIX! If you add a priest sprinkling a baby, you then make salvation by the obedience of SEVEN! Etc,. etc.
Shall many be made righteous.
The legal righteousness of God’s elect was obtained, secured, and applied by the Second Adam. All true believers, are God’s elect! God chose us in Jesus Christ before He ever created Adam. Never forget! Adam did not surprise God. It was part of His planned drama to magnify Himself. Do you know this (John 6:38-39; 10:15-16; 17:2 Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:2-13; 2nd Timothy 1:9,10, etc. )?
The many or all used throughout this section are not coextensive, for they are simply terms of contrast to the one man Adam or the one Man Jesus Christ, meaning that respective group represented by each ~ in the case of Adam, the human family; in the case of Christ, the elect.
I saw this same article here: https://trinities.org/blog/did-jesus-have-faith-in-god-part-1/ No problem quoting others, but you must live with their errors as well, once exposed to be a corruption of God word and it is indeed. Not only a corruption, but a very serious questions must be address, which is: "Why do folks reject that Jesus' faith and obedience as being not necessary for Jesus being the surety for God's elect ~ is it not true what he did as a man, is imputed to God's elect that were members of his elect body, being chosen of God to fulfill a righteousness needed for them to have eternal life, a righteousness that they themselves could not do, because of the weakness of sinful flesh. What does the word surety means to these folks?"
And, we must also ask: pray, tell me the difference between Jesus' faith and his obedience that was imperative for him to be the spotless Lamb of God sacrificed for each and every one of God's elect. The scriptures also clearly teach:
Romans 5:19
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”So by the obedience of one~The obedience of one man ~ Jesus Christ ~ made the many related to him righteous ~ all God’s elect.
Imputation ~ God charged men with sin or righteousness by the act of another ~ here it is Jesus. That why each and every child of God seeks to be justified through Christ alone, his perfect life of obedience/faith that alone secured eternal life for us~ we dare not trust in any work that we have done, for by the works of the law, no man will be justified in his sight.
Galatians 2:17
“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.”It is by his life of perfect faith and obedience that any are justified ~ we believe in Christ for our free justification by what he did as a man. The very life that we live in flesh, we live by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ, for our right to eternal life in the world to come.
Galatians 2:20
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”We declare unconditional salvation from here, for faith and works are only evidence of salvation. The obedience of Jesus Christ includes all He did to obey His Father, but especially to die for us.
Romans 5:19 is as strong as any statement in Scripture of salvation by the free grace of God in Jesus Christ.
We all are guilty for Adam’s sin whether you know, believe, accept, receive, obey God or Adam. No one needs not accept Adam as your personal sin representative to be judged for Adam’s sin. If you never hear of Adam, or you deny his existence when you hear, you will die by his sin.
God's elect are legally justified by Jesus’ obedience the very same way ~ imputation and representation. Faith or obedience on our part is only evidence Jesus Christ obeyed for us; it has no more cause-effect for eternal life than do your sins have a cause-effect for imputation death by Adam. This is the only doctrine of salvation that can save infants, idiots, and any others consistently.
If you add your obedient faith or works of any kind, you make salvation by obedience of TWO! If you add witnessing of a soul winner, you then make salvation by the obedience of THREE! If you add an organist pleading with you, you then make salvation by the obedience of FOUR! If you add a prayer warrior seeking souls, you then make salvation by the obedience of FIVE! If you add a giver paying a preacher to beg sinners, you make salvation by the obedience of SIX! If you add a priest sprinkling a baby, you then make salvation by the obedience of SEVEN! Etc,. etc.
Shall many be made righteous.
The legal righteousness of God’s elect was obtained, secured, and applied by the Second Adam. All true believers, are God’s elect! God chose us in Jesus Christ before He ever created Adam. Never forget! Adam did not surprise God. It was part of His planned drama to magnify Himself. Do you know this (John 6:38-39; 10:15-16; 17:2 Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:2-13; 2nd Timothy 1:9,10, etc. )?
The many or all used throughout this section are not coextensive, for they are simply terms of contrast to the one man Adam or the one Man Jesus Christ, meaning that respective group represented by each ~ in the case of Adam, the human family; in the case of Christ, the elect.
Are you suggesting that it was God's plan that Adam sin, that Adam sinned because it was according to God's plan? Clearly, God knew that Adam would sin and God planned for that happening. But to think that Adam's sin was a part of the plan is a bridge to far. In addition, God knew that all, just like Adam, would also sin (Rom 3:23; 5:12). There was no need or reason to impute Adam's sin on anyone. Besides, God would not do such an unjust thing, and that to His prized creation.
That is a Calvinist false construct if there ever was one. The only reason to think that the many and all in Romans 5:15,18,19 are not coextensive is to allow it to agree with the false Doctrine of Limited Atonement, which derives from the false Doctrine of Total Depravity. Once the false and horrific idea that God forms, makes or creates in each man at or before birth a spirit dead in sin is accepted then all manner of gross injustice from God becomes imaginable and believable.
@Jim
No, I never even hinted that it was God's plan that Adam sinned. But, here's what we all should know and believe, it is this: God knew that only He had the attribute of immutability that makes Him who he is: that loved righteousness, and hated iniquity. Yet Jim, God knowing this before, He still decided to create, all things for himself, and made us part of his creation, so that we could come to know Him with all of his eternal power, wisdom, and glory, etc., etc.
Jim, that's the main difference between our two gospels. I see the wisdom of God in making Adam our representative before the law of God. After all, Adam was created upright and given all he needed to continue in the state in which God created him~ in a beautiful garden, with a beautiful wife, and with only one commandment to keep. I rather have been given my chance in Adam, than in my fallen state, a flesh that is born into this world at enmity against God ~ by Adam's sin. With Adam using all the power of the flesh void of indwelling sin, a perfect opportunity, and that still was not good enough. The only thing God did not do for Adam that he does for us under the new covenant is that He did not secured Adam from falling, he left him to his own powers of the flesh, even though void of indwelling sin, and he still sinned.
No Jim, but to allow it to have a perfect flow of truth from one scripture to the next, otherwise it would be impossible.
civic
Active Member
Given your view of election, there was absolutely no need to create this world so that we could come to know him with all of his eternal power, wisdom and glory, etc., etc. He could have simply created the elect individuals quite apart from any of this physical creation. But according to your view what was accomplished was that far more were created to be elected to eternal condemnation than were elected to eternal life.
The main difference between our two gospels is that, unlike your perverted view, God not only created Adam upright and given all he needed to continue in the state in which God created him, God also created all mankind upright and gave us all we needed to continue in the state which God created us. But we just like Adam chose not to do so.
According to your view, you were not given any chance whatsoever. According to your view, you and some others were singled out to be awarded eternal life even though none of you were any different from those not so awarded eternal life gut instead awarded eternal damnation.
No Red, your view does not allow it to have a perfect flow of truth from one scripture the next; rather it provides it with the perfect flow of Augustine's heresy of the concept that the flesh is evil into God's word.
@civic
You folks make Paul guilty of a gross tautology, by the way you interpret Galatians 2:16, and other similar scriptures, trying to change the faith OF Jesus Christ into faith in Jesus Christ, shame on all who do such a wicked thing.............. the Holy Ghost the Author of the scriptures chose His words very carefully, as to protect the gospel of Jesus Christ and free justification through him by Jesus' obeiedence and faith as a man.
civic, I fully agree, yet Jesus was both God and man, and as a man died for our sins, and in order for him to be that spotless Lamb of God he had to have perfect obedience and faith ~It is not that difficult my friend.
Galatians 2:16
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”You folks make Paul guilty of a gross tautology, by the way you interpret Galatians 2:16, and other similar scriptures, trying to change the faith OF Jesus Christ into faith in Jesus Christ, shame on all who do such a wicked thing.............. the Holy Ghost the Author of the scriptures chose His words very carefully, as to protect the gospel of Jesus Christ and free justification through him by Jesus' obeiedence and faith as a man.
civic
Active Member
He is a Divine Person having a human nature. So like I said God does not need faith
The Holy Spirit chose neither the word "of" or the word "in" in any of those passages. The Holy Spirit chose the Greek dative construction πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ [pisteos Iesous Cristou]. It was the error of the KJV translators that chose to interpret that dative construction improperly as the possessive dative instead of the instrumental dative. @Red Baker, shame on all who refuse to make use of the God given information and data for the Greek language that is so readily available today. In fact, the language of the New Testament is not the classical Greek which can and has changed over the years; but is rather a specific language referred to as koine Greek which has been maintained as it appears in the NT not changed.
In Galatians 2:16 "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified", the exact same Greek words are used for both faith in Jesus Christ and faith in Christ. The only difference is the inclusion of the name Jesus in the first case.
In the first case it is πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ [pisteos Iesous Cristou] ; in the second case it is πίστεως Χριστοῦ [pisteos Cristou]
Galatians 2:16 εἰδότες δὲ ὅτι οὐ δικαιοῦται ἄνθρωπος ἐξ ἔργων νόμου ἐὰν μὴ διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ, καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς Χριστὸν ᾿Ιησοῦν ἐπιστεύσαμεν, ἵνα δικαιωθῶμεν ἐκ πίστεως Χριστοῦ καὶ οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων νόμου, διότι οὐ δικαιωθήσεται ἐξ ἔργων νόμου πᾶσα σάρξ.
@civic
"Was the obedience of Jesus Christ necessary in order for God to be just in justifying those who seek their justification through Christ alone"?
Yes, or no, please give your reason for saying one or the other.
I'm short on time, so for now let me ask you this question:
"Was the obedience of Jesus Christ necessary in order for God to be just in justifying those who seek their justification through Christ alone"?
Yes, or no, please give your reason for saying one or the other.
civic
Active Member
Obedience for Christ did not require faith. He said I always do what I see my Father saying and doing.
John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does
I will let @civic answer for himself, but I feel compelled to give you my answer to your question. Was the obedience of Jesus Christ necessary for God to justify us? Absolutely. The penalty for the sins of all mankind must be paid.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
Well, that's EASY!!! just read their literature, and that'll tell you EXACTLY WHO THEY ARE, and WHY they think that's the "Truth"!!!!
Titus
Active Member
Yes,
But in their literature does it teach the elect have no evidence for others of their election.
If so, that would discourage not encourage the reader to become a calvinist.
@Jim
Then according to you and others, we have no bible we can put our 100% trust in, as the very words of God; well, for me and my house we do, sorry you believe we do not.
Jim, one of many reasons I know we have a perfect bible, the very word of God, with all my heart, is that there's a perfect flow of truth throughout the scriptures, especially so concerning the doctrine of free justification through the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ. Btw, I also know false bibles by the way they attack and downplay this blessed truth.
2nd Peter 3:16
“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”Then according to you and others, we have no bible we can put our 100% trust in, as the very words of God; well, for me and my house we do, sorry you believe we do not.
Jim, one of many reasons I know we have a perfect bible, the very word of God, with all my heart, is that there's a perfect flow of truth throughout the scriptures, especially so concerning the doctrine of free justification through the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ. Btw, I also know false bibles by the way they attack and downplay this blessed truth.
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@Jim
Now, Jim, if Christ's obedience was necessary, and it was, then how in the world are you going to separate his obedience from his faith that rendered that obedience?
You said: "The penalty for the sins of all mankind must be paid"
Actually Jim, his perfect obedience and him being put to death for us, is what secured for us eternal life. Death had no power over him, there forth he was raised from dead according to the spirit of holiness.
Romans 1:4~"And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"
Well, thanks for giving your answer, now I desire for civic to do the same. I truly like civic and believes he loves God, even though we disagree on some important doctrines, but I'll leave that in God's hands.
Now, Jim, if Christ's obedience was necessary, and it was, then how in the world are you going to separate his obedience from his faith that rendered that obedience?
You said: "The penalty for the sins of all mankind must be paid"
Actually Jim, his perfect obedience and him being put to death for us, is what secured for us eternal life. Death had no power over him, there forth he was raised from dead according to the spirit of holiness.
Romans 1:4~"And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"
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I do earnestly believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures as written by the apostles and prophets. But I do not believe in the inerrancy of any one particular version, English or otherwise. There is no way to identify and be assured of that. We are blessed to be living in this age where there is so much information and data concerning God's word. To not take advantage of that is a real shame. I know that you love the Lord and think that you do your very best to come to the truth of God's revealed word. But you have not taken full advantage of what is available to you to do that.
Face it, even many of the Calvinist teachers and preachers back-peddle on the KJV interpretation of "faith of Christ". Your argument for the inerrancy of the KJV simply does not hold.
I believe that there is a reason that God has not caused the original documents to be preserved. That, I believe, is that there would be a terrible temptation to treat those documents in the manner of and idol. You are very close to doing that.
There is a movie that appears every once in a while on Cable TV. It is called The Book of Eli. There is a lot that is probably not very good about the message of the movie, but it does present one aspect of the KJV Bible being a sought-after idol.
Because with God, the Son there is no necessary relationship between obedience and faith. I have noted before that chapter 11 of Hebrews, called the Faith chapter by some, first presents the biblical definition for faith and then proceeds to point out key persons in the Bible who demonstrated that faith. Jesus is not even mentioned has having faith. That is for a reason, because as God, the Son, the definition given there simply cannot be rationally applied to him. It does not fit. There is no place for the concept of faith in "the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead" What power is lacking in God, the Son, that He should need and have to rely upon faith?
That is absolutely true. But there is no role for a "faith of Jesus" in any of that.
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