Need a reason to believe Calvinists are who they claim to be?

Explain then how our believing in God is not something that we do.
again,

if your stranded in the middle of the ocean, or in the middle of a burning house, totally unable to save yourself and dead on your merit.

and a savior is sent to rescue you. If you in faith, you allow the rescuer to rescue you. what work did you do to save yourself?

Lets use a biblical example. Your with the children of Israel in the wilderness. God sends serpents to punish you for your sins against him and Moses. Serpents which have bit you and given you a death sentence You cry out to Moses to have God rescue you. Then God tells Moses to create a bronze serpent and hang it on a pole. Moses then tells you if you want to be saved, Look at that pole. and you will be saved.

so in faith you look at that pole. what work did you do to save yourself? Did not Moses (a type of Christ) build the bronze serpent that could save you? Is it not God who gave the means of salvation and God the one who saved you from the death you would suffer if you did not look? Does it not take more work to not look at the serpent (not look to the cross) than to look. and remain in unbelief?

@civic @mailmandan anyone else. can you help me explain this to Jim in a way he can understand? I do not know how else to try to explain it where it could be more clear that me receiving Christ in faith is not a work that merits salvation. That salvation is a gift, not a reward that can be earned. and in no way can I boast of saving myself. just like all the examples (secular and biblical) I just shared
 
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@Jim

Jim I must comment on this since you posted this to me, and for me not to respond would show that I'm not able to do so, which is far from being the truth. I have responded to you in past on these very scriptures, but have not done so maybe in the past five years or so. The bold words were done by me for discussion.

You wrote: "Romans 8 tells us whom and how men are called by God."

Jim it does indeed, but, much different than what you saying, as a matter of fact ~ totally different. Our loving God does not proceed our calling out of darkness in the light of the blessed truth of the gospel, impossible.

What is said of all things working together for good is here limited to those who love God. This is given as a peculiar characteristic of a Christian. It imports that all behaviors love God, and that none but believers love Him. Philosophers, falsely so called, and men of various descriptions, may boast of loving God; but the decision of God Himself is, that to love Him is the peculiar characteristic of a Christian. No man can love God till He hath shined into his heart to give him the light of the knowledge of His glory in the face of Jesus Christ. It is therefore only through faith in the blood of Christ that we can love God. Until our faith gives us some assurance of reconciliation with God, we cannot have the confidence which is essential to loving God. Till then we dread God as our enemy, and fear that He will punish us for our sins. In loving God, the affections of the believer terminate in God as their last and highest end; and this they can do in God only. In everything else, there being only a finite goodness, we cannot absolutely rest in it. This is the rest that David had when he said:

Psalm 73:25
"Whom have I in heaven but Thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides Thee; God is the strength of my heart and my portion for ever,"

This is what satisfies the believer in his need and poverty, and in every situation in which he may be placed, for it suffices him to have God for his heritage and his possession, since God is his all; and as this Divine love expels the love of the world, so it overcomes the immoderate love of himself. He is led to love what God loves, and to hate what God hates, and thus he walks in communion with God, loving God, and more and more desiring to comprehend what is the breadth and length, and depth and height, and to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge.

But Jim, this only possible by the truth that God first loved us in Christ according to the everlasting covenant of grace, otherwise, we would not love God in the flesh as we are by nature.

1 John 4:10​

“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”

1 John 4:19​

“We love him, because he first loved us.”

Romans 3:10-18, should be enough to convinced you and others that it is impossible for a man still in the flesh to do any spiritual acts, especially so in loving God, which generally comes to even believers over time as they learn of the many great spiritual blessings they have in Christ, by God's grace alone. Love is one of those fruits of the spirit that generally is seen more in matured believers than younger ones. Much like loving your spouse, it grows over the years. Jim, men still in flesh hates God due to their sin/fallen nature, they naturally opposed to God's holiness and his power over them. By nature they are at war with god, his word and his people.

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Jim, why are you going against plain scriptures by even thinking man in the flesh can love God, which only a mature believer can do with any measure of success?
Oh my @Red Baker. So many hundreds of words simply to twist and distort what is actually said.

With respect to Romans 8:8 and the question of pleasing God I responded to @armylngst in reply #3281 in the Excellent Discussion on OSAS topic. I will paste of copy of that here as well.
All of that and you have still not really said what it means in Romans 8:8 that "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." I continue to ask the question, "When the unregenerate mother loves her baby or when she nurses her baby, does that not please God?" I have yet to have anyone answer that question positively. I maintain that God indeed is pleased that anyone, saved or not saved, who demonstrates love for others or who does obey Him in anything. Pleasing God is a bit like obeying God. James tells us in John 2:10, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" James continues to explain what he means there in verse 11, "For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law".

So God is not saying that in committing one sin He will hold your responsible for sins you have not committed. It means that in order to obey God you must obey God perfectly with not a single disobedient act. In committing only a single sin in your entire life means that you have not obeyed God. I believe we can mirror James' statement concerning obeying God's law with a similar statement concerning pleasing God, that is, For whoever pleases God in everything but fails to please Him in one point has not pleased God.

Thus, in Romans it means that if the unregenerate has done only a single thing in his entire life that is displeasing to God, then he cannot please God. That does not mean that God is displeased with everything that the unregenerate does.
God's foreknowledge as an attribute is not even considered here, that's not the meaning of "foreknow". While I agree 100% that God elected us based on his foreknowledge of knowing that if He did not elect some among Adam's fallen race, then NONE would have ever been saved by their works, which is clearly proven by Adam who was representative of his posterity, a perfect representative of all his posterity being created upright and provided all he needed to continue in that state, except one thing, God left him to himself without preserving him from falling. In the new covenant God secures his elect through Christ's obedience and righteousness!
Your analysis of the foreknowledge of God is so blatantly distorted. The meaning of foreknowledge is so simple. It means that God knows absolutely everything that will happen in the future. We do not have to understand how God does that, we only have to understand that God does that. It is a bit like gravity, in the sense that you do not need to understand how gravity works you only need to understand that gravity does work and not jump off from the top of a skyscraper building.
For whom He did foreknow~ The word foreknow has three significations. One is general, importing simply a knowledge of things before they come into existence. In this general sense it is evident that it is not employed in this passage, since it is limited to those whom God predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. He foreknows all things before they come to pass; but here foreknowledge refers only to particular individuals.
Well yes, in Romans 8:29 foreknowledge refers only to particular individuals, But that is not indicated in any way by the meaning of the word foreknowledge or the meaning of the word foreknow. The individuals that are referred to are identified in verse 28; they are those who love God, and verse 29 says that God predestined them.

The problem with your analysis here is that you have to then insert the inappropriate Calvinistic type of false thinking that one must be saved in order to love God. I maintain that is false and I believe it is well expressed in all of scripture that God saves those who believe in God and those who believe in God love God. Thus God saves those who love God.
A second signification is a knowledge accompanied by a decree. In this sense it signifies ordinance and providence, as it is said, Acts 2:23, ‘Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God;’ that is to say, by the ordinance and providence of God. The reason why this word is used to denote the Divine determinations is because the foreknowledge of God necessarily implies His purpose or decree with respect to the thing foreknown. For God foreknows what will be, by determining what shall be. God’s foreknowledge cannot in itself be the cause of any event; but events must be produced by His decree and ordination. It is not because God foresees a thing that it is decreed; but He foresees it because it is ordained by Him to happen in the order of His providence. Therefore His foreknowledge and decrees cannot be separated; for the one implies the other. When He decrees that a thing shall be, He foresees that it will be. There is nothing known as what will be, which is not certainly to be; and there is nothing certainly to be, unless it is ordained that it shall be. All the foreknowledge of future events, then, is founded on the decree of God; consequently He determined with Himself from eternity everything He executes in time, Acts15:18. Nothing is contingent in the mind of God, who foresees and orders all events according to His own eternal and unchangeable will. Jesus Christ was not delivered by God fore knowing it before it took place, but by His fixed counsel and ordination, or His providence. Thus believers are called elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, 1st Peter 1:2; and in the same chapter, ver. 19, 20, the Apostle Peter says that Jesus Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world. Here foreknown signifies, as it is rendered, fore-ordained
You have made the false argument, "dogs are animals with four legs, therefore all animals with four legs are dogs" Yes, in the case of Acts 2:23, Jesus was "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God". Then you made the false argument that therefore the foreknowledge of God is always according to the definite plan of God. That is simply not true. Your statement of determinism, "God’s foreknowledge cannot in itself be the cause of any event; but events must be produced by His decree and ordination. It is not because God foresees a thing that it is decreed; but He foresees it because it is ordained by Him to happen in the order of His providence", is just absolutely wrong. As I have said to you and others so many times, such a doctrine turns God into the Ogre of the cause of all evil in the world.
The third signification of this word consists in a knowledge of love and approbation; and in this sense it signifies to choose and recognize as His own, as it is said, Romans 11:2, ‘God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew,’ — that is, whom He had before loved and chosen; for the Apostle alleges this foreknowledge as the reason why God had not rejected His people. In this manner the word ‘know’ is often taken in Scripture in the sense of knowing with affection, loving, approving; as in the first Psalm, "The Lord knoweth the way of the righteous; but the way of the ungodly shall perish." To know the way of the just, is to love, to approve, as appears by the antithesis. Paul says to the Corinthians, "If any man love God, the same is know of Him,"~ 1st Corinthians 8:3; and to the Galatians, "But now after ye have known God or rather are known of Him.’ In the same way, God said by His Prophet to Israel, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth," Amos 3:2. At the day of judgment Jesus Christ will say to hypocrites, "I never knew you," Matthew 7:23; that is to say, He never loved or acknowledged them, although He perfectly knew their characters and actions. In this last sense the word foreknow is employed in the passage before us. Those whom God foreknew...... those whom He before loved, chose, acknowledged as His own ~ He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son It is not a general anticipated knowledge that is here intended. The Apostle does not speak of all, but of some, whom in verse 33 he calls "God’s elect"; and not of anything in their persons, or belonging to them, but of the persons themselves, whom it is said God foreknew. And He adds, that those whom He foreknew He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son; and whom he predestinated He also called, and justified, and glorified. By foreknowledge, then, is not here meant a foreknowledge of faith or good works, or of concurrence with the external call Faith cannot be the cause of foreknowledge, because foreknowledge is before predestination, and faith is the effect of predestination. "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed," Acts 13:48. Neither can it be meant of the foreknowledge of good works, because these are the effects of predestination. ‘We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works; which God hath before ordained (or before prepared) that we should walk in them,’ Ephesians2:10. Neither can it be meant of foreknowledge of our concurrence with the external call, because our effectual calling depends not upon that concurrence, but upon God’s purpose and grace, given us in Christ Jesusbefore the world began, 2nd Timothy 1:9

By this foreknowledge, then, is meant, as has been observed, the love of God towards those whom He predestinates to be saved through Jesus Christ. All the called of God are foreknown by Him ~ that is, they are the objects of His eternal love, and their calling comes from this free love.
Of the three analyses you have presented for the meaning of foreknowledge, this third one is perhaps, for me, the most onerous. First the word know is used in passages such as Genesis 4:1 to indicate nothing more than sexual intercourse between Adam and Eve. Regardless of other meanings of the word know in the sense of love and approbation, such an allusion to the meaning of God's foreknowledge in the sense of a sex act is absolutely terrible.

To foreknow means simply and only to know beforehand. In God's case it is nothing more than His divine attribute of omniscience applied to the future.
 
@Eternally-Grateful
@civic @mailmandan anyone else. can you help me explain this to Jim in a way he can understand? I do not know how else to try to explain it where it could be more clear that me receiving Christ in faith is not a work that merits salvation. That salvation is a gift, not a reward that can be earned. and in no way can I boast of saving myself. just like all the examples (secular and biblical) I just shared
Bold highlight is mine for discussion.

Sir, with all due respect you are wrong, by saying this, I'm not saying Jim is right in his understanding of how one is born again.

Our faith is a work on our part, a work that comes from our new man within us, not of the flesh, or the old man. Because of our flesh and sin in our flesh, our faith is never greater than a mustard seed, if even that, sad to say. So, impossible for our faith to play a part in one being born of God ~ besides, the scriptures are very clear on this truth.

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

The will of the flesh rules out faith on our part, since our will is in bondage to sin and the devil himself. I could give many scriptures but you know them already.

Yesterday I said these words to Jim: Faith is not the impulsive or moving cause of Justification. It is an act (justification) of pure and free grace, without "any" motive in the creature: Therefore the Apostle faith, “being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption which is in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:7.) ”But this benefit would not be of grace, but of works, was our faith the impulsive cause of it: because faith is a work or act of ours, as we learn from the words of Christ: “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent (John 6:29.)” Salvation is not of works, in any branch of it; “for by grace are we saved, through faith; that not of our selves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8, 9.).” From whence it is evident that Justification, which is a considerable part of salvation, cannot be by works. The grace of God eminently appears in contriving the way of our Justification by Christ’s righteousness alone, and in sending him into the world to work out a righteousness for us, in which we stand complete in his sight: Hence we are said, “to be justified by his grace, that we might made heirs according to the hope of eternal life(Titus 3:7.).” No other cause can be assigned why sinners are justified in the sight of God, than his free favor and sovereign pleasure, as the effect of which he determined to justify them in the righteousness of his Son.
if your stranded in the middle of the ocean, or in the middle of a burning house, totally unable to save yourself and dead on your merit.

and a savior is sent to rescue you. If you in faith, you allow the rescuer to rescue you. what work did you do to save yourself?
It was you that that made the decision to be saved. Sir, you do not totally understand how one is born of God's Spirit, for if you did, then you would know that God is the only active person working, man is totally unware of what is going on, he's dead is dead in trespasses and sin. The Spirit of God comes and goes without us knowing when he comes and when he left, we can only later see the results of the new birth, by having eyes to see and an heart that truly desires to please God in our thoughts, deeds, with a love toward others that we did not have, etc. One can be doing just about anything under heaven since God does not need us to help him, we are born of God...period. No co-partner in this spiritual birth. Nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, as though God needs help form flesh and blood! Gog comes and speaks life to our dead soul and instantly we begin to live spiritually.

Neither is faith the matter of our Justification; which appears by these arguments.............I'll wait to post more to you after I see how you respond to these few words.
 
No!! You keep insisting that meeting a necessary condition for an event to occur is then a sufficient condition for that event to occur. That is simply not true and you are wrong.
No

I keep insisting a work according to the biblical definition is something we do to earn a wage, to earn a reward. It is something we do that we can boast in

You keep denying that defenition and trying to make a work somethign it is not.

I DID NOT EARN SALVATION

I CAN NOT BOAST OF SAVING MYSELF

I DID NOT DO THE WORK THAT GAVE ME THE POWER TO CHOSE TO TRUST GOD OR DENY HIM.

I received his gift in faith. My faith was NOT A WORK!!!! (Biblically speaking)

You really need to study up on some basic formal logic.
You really need to study up on biblical definitions. and stop trying to insert your own definition on biblical terms
 
Neither is faith the matter of our Justification; which appears by these arguments.

1)
Because that righteousness, by which we are justified before God, is not our own. All true believers, as the great apostle Paul did, esteem

Philippians 3:9
“their own righteousness and works but loss and dung, for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus their Lord; and desire to be found in him, not having their own righteousness, which is of the Law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. ”

It is manifest, that the apostle excluded every thing from the business of his Justification which might be accounted his own; and, consequently, faith itself, which though it is a fruit of special grace, may properly be reckoned our own, as we are the subjects of it. Hence it is that the Holy Ghost speaks of faith as ours: “But the just shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4.).” All dependence on faith for Justification is laid aside by the saints, who are sensible that "many" deficiencies attend it, and that nothing which is imperfect can recommend them to God.

2) A perfect righteousness is required, in order to our Justification in God’s sight. His law insists upon a complete obedience to all its precepts, and condemns where it is wanting; for the language of it is,:

Galatians 3:10​

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”

Nor will God, in any instance, act contrary to his own law, which cannot be made void; for it is the eternal standard and rule of righteousness, according to which he will always proceed in judgment. Faith is not arighteousness free from imperfection, and therefore it is not such as is demanded by the Law; wherefore we cannot be justifed by it.

3) Faith receives that righteousness by which we are justified, and therefore "cannot" be that righteousness it self. That which is laid hold on, and embraced by faith, must needs be something different from it, as the act and the object are distinct. Christ’s righteousness is that to which the faith of a believer looks, and on which it wholly depends for Justification before God: Therefore faith is not the matter of his justifying righteousness.

@Eternally-Grateful please consider carefully what we have said, you are on the right path but you are not here as of yet. Jim is coming through the front door, while you are coming from the back door, both are in error.

3) Faith is not the instrumental cause. If faith be an instrument, it is the instrument of God or man; not of man, for man is not the principal efficient, he doth not justify himself; not of God, for it is not God that believeth. No act of man can be an instrument in those acts of God which are immanent: Justification is such an act; and as Justification is not an act of man’s, or he doth not justify himself, faith cannot be his instrument in an act which is none of his. Upon the whole, it may be strongly concluded, that the act of believing, is not imputed to us for righteousness, but the object of faith. That is to say, since Christ, the object of faith, is come into the world, we are no longer under the law as a schoolmaster. It has not the least concern herein, if Justification is properly taken. But, If Justification be considered in the knowledge or perception of it, it is by faith; and that is intended when we are said to be justified by faith, if faith is to be taken in a proper sense. By this grace we behold our natural pollution and inability to perform that which is good; the perfection and spirituality of the law; the necessity of an interest in Christ’s righteousness, in order to our acceptance with God; the glory and excellency of it: In consequence of which we renounce our own works, and wholly depend upon the spotless righteousness of Christ. At some times also we by faith view that we are all fair, and without spot in the sight of God, as he considers us in the glorious robe of his Son’s righteousness, though full of impurities and spots in our selves. In those seasons we are filled with joy unspeakable, and full of glory; and can draw nigh to God, as our Father, with a holy freedom and liberty. This is the concern which faith has in our Justification: It beholds and views it, but doth not give being to it, or impute the righteousness of Christ to us, that is God’s act without us; and therefore Justification by faith, is only the comfortable knowledge or perception of that gracious privilege.
 
Neither is faith the matter of our Justification; which appears by these arguments.

1)
Because that righteousness, by which we are justified before God, is not our own. All true believers, as the great apostle Paul did, esteem

Philippians 3:9
“their own righteousness and works but loss and dung, for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus their Lord; and desire to be found in him, not having their own righteousness, which is of the Law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. ”
Philippians 3:8-9

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--

It is manifest, that the apostle excluded every thing from the business of his Justification which might be accounted his own; and, consequently, faith itself, which though it is a fruit of special grace, may properly be reckoned our own, as we are the subjects of it. Hence it is that the Holy Ghost speaks of faith as ours: “But the just shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4.).” All dependence on faith for Justification is laid aside by the saints, who are sensible that "many" deficiencies attend it, and that nothing which is imperfect can recommend them to God.

2) A perfect righteousness is required, in order to our Justification in God’s sight. His law insists upon a complete obedience to all its precepts, and condemns where it is wanting; for the language of it is,:
Yes, not through the law but through faith in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it [believing God) was counted to him as righteousness."

Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also.
It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
 
@Jim
Philippians 3:8-9

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--
Jim, you are dead wrong searching for a translation that is written to fit you heresy, and heresy it is. The righteousness of God declared in the gospel is what Jesus Christ, God's Son, secured for God's elect, by his perfect life of obedience and faith as a man!

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

Philippians 3:9​

“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

Galatians 2:16​

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Jim, I'll trust the scriptures that were first given to the English speaking people of the world, the same scriptures that our forefathers trusted in and preached from and preached the same truth we are today, if you need proof, I have it.

https://www.mercyuponall.org/pdfs-c...ichardson-justification-by-christ-alone-1647/

At one time all of the Baptist churches in London for the most part taught this truth, very sad to say that no more are there many that do.
 
@Jim

Jim, you are dead wrong searching for a translation that is written to fit you heresy, and heresy it is. The righteousness of God declared in the gospel is what Jesus Christ, God's Son, secured for God's elect, by his perfect life of obedience and faith as a man!

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

Philippians 3:9​

“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

Galatians 2:16​

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Jim, I'll trust the scriptures that were first given to the English speaking people of the world, the same scriptures that our forefathers trusted in and preached from and preached the same truth we are today, if you need proof, I have it.

https://www.mercyuponall.org/pdfs-c...ichardson-justification-by-christ-alone-1647/

At one time all of the Baptist churches in London for the most part taught this truth, very sad to say that no more are there many that do.
Faith is needed to be saved. Did Jesus need to be saved ?
 
@Jim

Jim, you are dead wrong searching for a translation that is written to fit you heresy, and heresy it is. The righteousness of God declared in the gospel is what Jesus Christ, God's Son, secured for God's elect, by his perfect life of obedience and faith as a man!

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

Philippians 3:9​

“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

Galatians 2:16​

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Jim, I'll trust the scriptures that were first given to the English speaking people of the world, the same scriptures that our forefathers trusted in and preached from and preached the same truth we are today, if you need proof, I have it.

https://www.mercyuponall.org/pdfs-c...ichardson-justification-by-christ-alone-1647/

At one time all of the Baptist churches in London for the most part taught this truth, very sad to say that no more are there many that do.
didn’t Jesus have the greatest faith ever known?

No, he didn’t, at least not according to the Gospels. Jesus uses the word “faith” 41 times in the Gospels (English Standard Version), and in every case he was speaking of someone else’s faith (or lack of it). He never used the term in the first person, speaking of his own faith. No other writer in the Bible spoke of Jesus’ faith, either.

Jesus did not need faith in the way humans do. This is because he is considered to be God incarnate, and therefore already possessed divine knowledge and a direct relationship with God. Faith, in the sense of trusting in something unseen, was not necessary for him, as he was both the subject and object of faith

The phrase "faith of Christ" is sometimes used, but it is generally interpreted as the faith in Christ, not Christ's own faith, it refers to the faith that comes from Christ or the faith that is placed in him.

Faith of Christ is a bad translation.

hope this helps !!!
 
@Jim

Jim, you are dead wrong searching for a translation that is written to fit you heresy, and heresy it is. The righteousness of God declared in the gospel is what Jesus Christ, God's Son, secured for God's elect, by his perfect life of obedience and faith as a man!

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

Philippians 3:9​

“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

Galatians 2:16​

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Jim, I'll trust the scriptures that were first given to the English speaking people of the world, the same scriptures that our forefathers trusted in and preached from and preached the same truth we are today, if you need proof, I have it.

https://www.mercyuponall.org/pdfs-c...ichardson-justification-by-christ-alone-1647/

At one time all of the Baptist churches in London for the most part taught this truth, very sad to say that no more are there many that do.
@Red Baker, You continue to try to convince me of your view by posting the very poor translations of the KJV for Romans 3:22, Philippians 2:9 and Galatians 2:16. The ONLY reason you trust them is because those bad translations is because they support bad soteriology produced not by the writers of Scripture, but by the Gnosticism of Augustine and later Calvin.

As far as Romans 5:19 is concerned, we have been through that so many times now. There is no legitimate basis for changing the meaning of the word "many" in that sentence. Whoever the "many" are that were made sinners when they were born are exactly the same" many" made righteous when they were born. We were all born righteous and became unrighteous through our trespasses and sins.
 
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