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[Titus]

Who’s work is it that the person believes

Does the person save themself. Or is it God who saved them

Jesus said it is the work of God we believe

Is it our work, or is it his work.

Who gets to boast in us being saved by faith?

Do we boast of saving ourself. Or does God boast in saving us?

I've told you the truth.
Faith is what we work, John 6:28-29.
I've taught the true gospel.
The only way to get works out of salvation is to get faith out of salvation and pervert the gospel into grace only.
John Calvin understood this.
This is why he teaches we are saved before faith by Grace.
So that no works are in salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9 will not allow this perverted gospel.
We are saved by grace through faith....

Nothing wrong with works.
False teachers turned works into a dirty word not Jesus.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Properly speaking, this is in opposition to the gnostic notion of a sinless spirit. Sin is spiritual in nature, not physical. Thus, Jesus’s teaching that it’s not what goes into the body that is sinful, but what comes out of the heart.

There are many natural sins. Murder is one of them.

οὐ δύναται, “not able” is not in the sense of “impossible” to sin, but rather in the sense that now that I am born again, I cannot continue in the sinfulness of my past. This, it infers that I am able to not sin at any given moment because of the Holy Spirit in me. Much the same as since I am married, I cannot date other women.

This is the glory of Romans 8: 1-3 and 12-13. We are able to say no to the sinful nature and yes to the Spirit! All this is due to being born of God!


Doug

Can you add the following to your understanding?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

These verses are greatly misunderstood.

You actually believe that you can cease from sinning. Which is contrary to what these verses details. It is the flesh that actually makes us incapable of ceasing entirely from sin.

I believe it is rather obvious that you nor any other man, myself included, can always walk in the Spirit of God without failing or ceasing to not walk in the Spirit.

It bothers me that believers don't have the guts to admit these facts. I believe most of you actually are afraid of looking like failures.

When it is actually much better to tell sinners that we can sympathize in their condition and that Christ Jesus will endless forgive us till we receive our new body which is from heaven.

I don't understand the deception that takes please among believers with nonsense such as this.

I'm not looking for anyone to follow me. I don't need to take the place of the sinless Son of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Nothing wrong with works.
False teachers turned works into a dirty word not Jesus.

Sure there is. Works are incapable of actually pleasing God. If they were, then the law would have been the end of the conversation.

It is good thing you haven't been judged by the law.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Besides. You have your own list of "approved works" that you judge all men by except yourself.

 

[TibiasDad]

Can you add the following to your understanding?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

These verses are greatly misunderstood.

The parallel scripture to this is Rom 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you<a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="The Greek is singular; some manuscripts me">a</a> free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verses 4-13.">b</a> God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="Or flesh, for sin">c</a> And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit...12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

You actually believe that you can cease from sinning. Which is contrary to what these verses details. It is the flesh that actually makes us incapable of ceasing entirely from sin.

I believe that we can say no to sin at any particular point of temptation. I believe it is possible to do this for an indefinite period of time; but possibly doesn’t necessarily mean probability.

As the scripture above states, believers are “set free from the law of sin and death”, and therefore our “obligation” is no longer to the sinful nature, but to the Spirit. And as long as we “live by the Spirit”, “the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us…”

Whether this is experienced is a matter of devotion and discipline to the life, teachings, and submission to the will of Christ.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

There are many natural sins. Murder is one of them.

Murder is in/from the heart…Mt 15:19


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

Murder is in/from the heart…Mt 15:19


Doug

Sorta like faith and confession? Right?

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Can you remind @Titus of this for me?

Murder can not be accomplished without the flesh or without the body. Such actions are not mutually exclusive to the spirit or the flesh. One is not without the other. I wish people would stop pretending they are.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The parallel scripture to this is Rom 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you<a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="The Greek is singular; some manuscripts me">a</a> free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verses 4-13.">b</a> God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="Or flesh, for sin">c</a> And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit...12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Did any believers die in the early church? I seem to remember several that did. There is a sin unto to death. However, there are sins that are not unto death.

1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

The issue is relative to "reigning" in our lives. Do you really think I let sin reign in my mortal body?

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

I believe that we can say no to sin at any particular point of temptation. I believe it is possible to do this for an indefinite period of time; but possibly doesn’t necessarily mean probability.

As the scripture above states, believers are “set free from the law of sin and death”, and therefore our “obligation” is no longer to the sinful nature, but to the Spirit. And as long as we “live by the Spirit”, “the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us…”

Whether this is experienced is a matter of devotion and discipline to the life, teachings, and submission to the will of Christ.


Doug

Your view is more tempered in this than most others but it still goes too far.

Our mortal members don't often serve us well. We can't do good things without taming our mortal members. Paul often spoke of putting such to "death" in the verses you referenced but such is an exaggeration or hyperbole. It is a figure of speech meant to convey a similarities with death. Only death itself will free us from these unruly members of flesh we carry with us. Such is humbling and necessary.

If I may speak of Paul a little more forcefully. Please understand what I'm about to say and don't take it any differently than how I say it.

Paul had confidence in the flesh at one point in his life. The commandment came and he figuratively "died".

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

He spoke of his past several times throughout his writings. Below is one in particular.

2Co 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Infirmities were necessary for Paul.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

But many used such to condemn Paul. They saw such as sin.

2Co 10:10 because some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but his physical presence is weak and his speech is of no account.”

Our perspectives changes as we age. They should. Claiming the things many claim today is for much younger and prideful men than they soon will be.

 

[TibiasDad]

Sorta like faith and confession? Right?

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Can you remind @Titus of this for me?

Murder can not be accomplished without the flesh or without the body. Such actions are not mutually exclusive to the spirit or the flesh. One is not without the other. I wish people would stop pretending they are.

Jesus’s point is that, morally speaking, the spiritual aspect controls the physical. The natural inclinations are not in control of themselves; the will of man is the trigger point, and whatever controls the will determines the resulting action.

I think @Titus is up to speed!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Did any believers die in the early church?

We are all appointed to death.

I seem to remember several that did. There is a sin unto to death. However, there are sins that are not unto death.

The “sin unto death” is associated with two possible types of sin: the unpardonable sin, and the sin for which God chooses to punish temporally with death.

All other sins are not “unto death” in a temporal sense. These sins may be forgiven, and thus prayed for.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Paul had confidence in the flesh at one point in his life. The commandment came and he figuratively "died".

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

I don’t think this a “figurative death”, but of becoming aware of the deadness of our souls spiritually and our captivity to sin’s power and control.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Our mortal members don't often serve us well. We can't do good things without taming our mortal members. Paul often spoke of putting such to "death" in the verses you referenced but such is an exaggeration or hyperbole. It is a figure of speech meant to convey a similarities with death. Only death itself will free us from these unruly members of flesh we carry with us. Such is humbling and necessary.

Paul is not exaggerating but accentuating the reality of those in Christ! The Spirit of God within us has given us the capacity to overcome sin. Ultimately, death is the end of sin’s dominion over us because Christ defeated death, but until death the potential for sin is always possible simply because we are susceptible to sin.


Doug

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Calvinists teach God both regenerates and gives faith prior to them even hearing the gospel. That’s grave error

The average Calvinist does not believe this, only those whom the religious world calls "high or hyper" Calvinist like myself believe that the scriptures teaches this truth.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

As simple as I can say it here it is in a nutshell. Salvation is synergistic.

God saves the person who believes.

civic, salvation from sin and condemnation is purely modernistic, without any works of the law/flesh where man has an active part in this salvation.

Jonah 2:9​

“But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.”

100% of the LORD, as far as salvation from sin and condemnation ~ Or else, Christ died in vain, if man can contribute to his salvation, then why would Christ need to be a surety for God's elect?

Galatians 2:21​

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Or, if God's righteousness (the free pass to eternal life), is by any works, that in essence said: "This DO and LIVE, sin and die"...then Christ died in vain, according to the gospel many believes in and teaches, one that Paul pronounces a cursed upon and Paul through the Holy Ghost, devoted one whole epistle to expose such a wicked gospel, and wicked it is, since according to the scriptures denies the work that Christ alone fulfilled for God's elect. God will not take lightly any man who destroys Christ's redemption work that God laid upon him to fulfilled.

Galatians 5:12​

“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”

Any man that boast that his gospel is synergistic, is putting himself in harms way not from me, but from God, whose judgment will be according to truth and righteousness, without mercy in that day.

Ephesians 2:8,9​

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.

I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.

 

[Jim]

Without the Gospel, no one can believe. God gave the Gospel. Which causes men to believe.

God's word, the Bible, is the source for learning about God. In it we learn the truth of the gospel. Paul said it is the power of God for salvation. But it is not true that the Gospel causes men to believe. There are many who have read the the Bible and do not believe. Romans 10:5-21 lays that all out. Specifically, in verse 16, Paul says "But they have not all obeyed the gospel".

Your argument that it is the work of God, that God does the work, that God causes one to believe, is false. God provides, in His written revelation, all that is necessary for one to come to a belief in Him, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel. But God does not cause one to believe.

 

[Jim]

No

that would be God believing for me

That would mean I did not heave free will.

Then please explain what you mean by saying that it is God's work.

Dude, Good day.. You have a serious lack of understanding. I am done playing your games.

Dude, It is you who have a serious lack of understanding if you can't even give a rational explanation for believing in Jesus not being a work that we do.

Believing in Jesus is obviously, since Jesus said it is, a work that we do to receive eternal life (John 6:27-29).

 

[Jim]

If I may speak of Paul a little more forcefully. Please understand what I'm about to say and don't take it any differently than how I say it.

Paul had confidence in the flesh at one point in his life. The commandment came and he figuratively "died".

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

There is nothing figuratively about that at all. When Paul said that he died when the commandment came, he was dead serious, no put intended. He died spiritually. He says that before that he was alive, meaning he was spiritually alive. When he learned and understood the law he realized or learned that covetousness was against God's law, he learned that in coveting, he sinned. At that point he became dead in his sin.

That was, I maintain, the time in his life when he reached the age of accountability. Before that, he was did not know and understand God's law. For him, at that early age, before "the commandment came", there was no law and where there is no law there is no sin (Rom 5:13).

What that means is that there is no such thing as original sin in the sense of Adam's sin being imputed to the entire human race. And that explains Romans 5:12. Adam was the first to sin, but all since have also sinned. They are condemned by their sin, not in any way at all by Adam's sin.

 

[Jim]

I don’t think this a “figurative death”, but of becoming aware of the deadness of our souls spiritually and our captivity to sin’s power and control.


Doug

See my reply #496 immediately above to @praise_yeshua.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

1John 3:9,
Whosoever is born of God( by the gospel, the word) doth not commit sin for his seed remaineth in him

As long as the seed(word of God, gospel) is in him he does not sin.
Meaning as long as a born again Christian lives by the gospel he does not practise habitual sin.

When he strays away from following the gospel then he does sin.Then 1John 1:8 applies to him.

1John 3:9. The seed living in him, does not sin.
1John 1:8 The gospel no longer living by needs forgiveness of sins.

1John 3:9,
- whosoever is born of God does not commit sin.... Why John? ....for His(Jesus' gospel) seed, remaineth in him and he cannot sin(no one sins when they live by the gospel) because he is born of God


John is not teaching the impossibility to commit sin.
John is teaching one who lives by the gospel, seed of Jesus Christ will not practise habitual sin.

When the born again fall short of the gospel, then 1John 1:8 applies.

Titus, let's us look at 1st John 3:9, not that I want to expose your weak position, but more so to help any who are willing to consider what we have to say, and compare what we say with the word of God, which all noble Christians should truly desire to do. I truly slow down and read carefully and consider every post to see where folks are coming from and I truly desire to find truths in their post, this has helped me with @praise_yeshua, and I do see some of his good points and he has made many of them in this thread, yet at times he does seem to be talking just to be talking, but then again, that's my observation not God's, since God knows all of our hearts perfectly we know no one, and even our judgement are somewhat partial in our favor, if the truth was known. We all are sinners saved by grace, and kept by the same grace and God's power.

You said: "As long as the seed(word of God, gospel) is in him he does not sin. Meaning as long as a born again Christian lives by the gospel he does not practise habitual sin."

Titus, this is incorrect. The word of God/gospel never stays perfectly in our hearts/mind/spirit, we only wish that this is so, but over fifty some years of being in the faith, I know that this is not so with me and I have seen that this is not so with others sincere, God fearing and loving people. My fruits as a believers has vary over the years, but never have I produce 100%, probably not even close, only God knows ~I can only hope that at least thirty, sixty or more, has been in my life as a child of God, over different periods of my life as a child of God..... but, the weeds/thorns are there continuously coming up and some of those weeds/thorns my flesh takes delight in, sad to say, and they have more than once choke out the word of God!

You said: "As long as the seed(word of God, gospel) is in him he does not sin."

Titus, there is not a single moment that we do not sin, it is in our flesh, the old man ~it is even in our most holy moment/duties of praying, preaching/teaching, being a husband, father, a solder of Jesus Christ, you name it, sin is presence in our flesh, the old man. Even the most ungodly sin are there in our flesh, and comes to surface at times that we hate the very thoughts of those sins. There is not a sin that you are not capable of doing "IF" God removed his hand over your life and the same is true of all of us.

I know some will reject these words, but it only shows that most men do not know just how wicked they are by nature.

2 Kings 8:13​

“And Hazael said, But what, is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing? And Elisha answered, The LORD hath shewed me that thou shalt be king over Syria.”

Well poor ignorant Hazael, like so many in our day, did not understand to know that he had a very depraved heart that was capable of doing things unthinkable, if God leave such a person to his own wicked heart! Read the story he was every bit of dog, as a matte of fact, some dog's have more mercy to their own and to their master's than he did!

1John 3:9,
- whosoever is born of God does not commit sin.... Why John? ....for His(Jesus' gospel) seed, remaineth in him and he cannot sin(no one sins when they live by the gospel) because he is born of God


John is not teaching the impossibility to commit sin.
John is teaching one who lives by the gospel, seed of Jesus Christ will not practise habitual sin.

While I agree that those who are born of God do not live in sin, or take great delight in sin when their overall life is considered ~that is a given, and clearly taught through the scriptures.

1st John 3:6​

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

These three scriptures teach this truth, that those born of God, do not live under sin's power. Does not commit sin; in this sense: does not make it his trade and business; it is not the constant course of his life; he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it; he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it; and that for this reason:

Which I am back to finish this with another posit. later today...RB

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

Your argument that it is the work of God, that God does the work, that God causes one to believe, is false. God provides, in His written revelation, all that is necessary for one to come to a belief in Him, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel. But God does not cause one to believe.

I'll wait until @praise_yeshua first answers this and then I want to say a few things.

 

[Jim]

@Jim

I'll wait until @praise_yeshua first answers this and then I want to say a few things.

Hey @Red Baker, please say what you want. No need to wait on @praise_yeshua. I appreciate what both of you think about what I said. The order of replies is not significant to me.