Need a reason to believe Calvinists are who they claim to be?

@Titus
1John 3:9,
Whosoever is born of God( by the gospel, the word) doth not commit sin for his seed remaineth in him

As long as the seed(word of God, gospel) is in him he does not sin.
Meaning as long as a born again Christian lives by the gospel he does not practise habitual sin.

When he strays away from following the gospel then he does sin.Then 1John 1:8 applies to him.

1John 3:9. The seed living in him, does not sin.
1John 1:8 The gospel no longer living by needs forgiveness of sins.

1John 3:9,
- whosoever is born of God does not commit sin.... Why John? ....for His(Jesus' gospel) seed, remaineth in him and he cannot sin(no one sins when they live by the gospel) because he is born of God


John is not teaching the impossibility to commit sin.
John is teaching one who lives by the gospel, seed of Jesus Christ will not practise habitual sin.

When the born again fall short of the gospel, then 1John 1:8 applies.
You said: "When he strays away from following the gospel then he does sin.Then 1John 1:8 applies to him."

Titus, you nor I, do not have to strays from God to sin, we do a very good job of sinning, when we are doing our utmost to please him ~ sin is presence in all that we do, which keeps us for perfectly serving God the way our new man desires to do> Surely you do understand this to be so, if not, then "Houston, we have a serious problem" .

Romans 7:14-16​

“For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.”

Paul added: "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:" Now we are ready to consider:

1st John 3:9​

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

'for his seed remaineth in him"~ not the word of God, or the Gospel, though that is a seed which is sown by the ministers of it, and blessed by God, and by which he gives understanding his elect; and which having a place in their hearts, becomes the ingrafted word, and there abides, nor can it be rooted out; where it powerfully teaches to avoid sin, is an antidote against it, and a preservative from it: nor the Holy Spirit of God, though he is the author of the new birth, and the principle of all grace; and where he once is, he always abides; and through the power of his grace believers prevail against sin, and mortify the deeds of the body, and live: but rather the creation of the Spirit, the internal principle of grace in the soul, the new nature, or new man formed in the soul, is meant; which seminally contains all grace in it, and which, like seed, springs up and gradually increases, and always abides; and is pure and incorruptible, created after the very image of Jesus Christ, his sinless life, and neither sins itself, nor encourages sin, but opposes, checks, and prevents it:

and he cannot sin
; not that it is impossible for such a man still having the old man, to do acts of sin, or that it is possible for him to live without sin; for the words are not to be understood in the sense of those who plead for perfection in this life; for though the saints have perfection in Christ, yet not in themselves; they are not impeccable, they are not free from sin, neither from the being nor acting's of it; sin is in them, (that is, in the flesh) lives in them, dwells in them, hinders all the good, and does all the mischief it can: or in such sense, as if the sins of believers were not sins; for though they are pardoned and expiated, and they are justified from them, yet they do not cease to be sins; they are equally contrary to the new nature, will, and law of God, as well as the sins of others; and are oftentimes attended with more aggravated circumstances, and which God in a fatherly way takes notice of, and chastises for, and on the account of which he hides his face from them:

and he cannot sin;
can only have reference to our new nature, the new man that has been created after the image of Jesus Christ, and that image is a sinless life, and that is what secured for us eternal life in the world to come. That's where the Spirit lives and that is the part of us that has eternal life both now, and the world to come. This truly proves that Saints cannot lose this life that has freely been given to us by grace through Jesus' redemption work for us.

because he is born of God: for that which is born of God in him, does, under the influence of the Spirit, power, and grace of God, preserve him totally from the temptations of Satan, the pollutions of the world, and the corruptions of his own heart; see 1st John 5:18
 
@Jim
God's word, the Bible, is the source for learning about God.
Greetings old friend, trust this finds you in good health ~or as John said it best:

3rd John 1:2​

“Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.”

Is my sincere prayer for you.

Yes, I agree ~ "the Bible, is the source for learning about God" ~ It is our only source, and I know you believe this to so, with all your heart. That's why you and I friends.

Psalms 119:63​

“I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.”

I have no other friends, but men and women that love and fear God, and I desire no others. Even if we do not see eye for eye.
In it we learn the truth of the gospel. Paul said it is the power of God for salvation
Yes ~ but brother the gospel is only the power of God to believers, not to those that believe not, to them it is foolishness. Please consider carefully:

Romans 1:16​

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

1 Corinthians 1:24​

“But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”

But, only so to those whom God has called out of darkness, into His marvelous light.
But it is not true that the Gospel causes men to believe
Very much so, since faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But, Jim, only those men and women that have been born of God first, can see, hear and have faith through the new man within our souls. I know well, this is so hard for folks to wrap their minds around this truth, since all they have heard all of their life is.... we are saved by grace through our faith, as though man in the flesh without the Spirit can have faith. Very few preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they must include man's works, since they truly believe that man in his nature state is not wicked, and all he needs is a push to get him going in the right direction spiritual speaking.
There are many who have read the the Bible and do not believe. Romans 10:5-21 lays that all out. Specifically, in verse 16, Paul says "But they have not all obeyed the gospel".
Actually all men, until God quickens their them to spiritual life in Jesus Christ.
Your argument that it is the work of God, that God does the work, that God causes one to believe, is false
Jim, faith is not the impulsive or moving cause of free Justification. It is an act of pure and free grace, without any motive in the creature: Therefore Paul writes: , “being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption which is in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:7.) ”But this benefit would not be of grace, but of works, was our faith the impulsive cause of it: because faith is a work or act of ours, as we learn from the words of Christ: “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent (John 6:29.)” I have listen to @Eternally-Grateful missed used this verse many times over, but said nothing until now, because his words were not directed to me.

Salvation is not of works, in any branch of it; “for by grace are we saved, through faith; that not of our selves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8, 9.).” See our post above on this verse. From whence it is evident that Justification, which is a considerable part of salvation, cannot be by works. The grace of God eminently appears in contriving the way of our Justification by Christ’s righteousness, and in sending him into the world to work out a righteousness for us, in which we stand complete in his sight: Hence we are said, “to be justified by his grace, that we might made heirs according to the hope of eternal life(Titus 3:7.).” No other cause can be assigned why sinners are justified in the sight of God, than his free favour and sovereign pleasure, as the effect of which he determined to justify them by righteousness of his Son.

You said: "that God causes one to believe, is false" I agree, that's not exactly correct, he does not the believing for us ~ it is not that God causes us to believe, but he gives the power for us to believe.

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

God does this by creating in his elect a new man after the image of his holy Son, Jesus Christ, which man has the power to hear, see, and believe.
God provides, in His written revelation, all that is necessary for one to come to a belief in Him, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel. But God does not cause one to believe
Jim, your understanding is built upon the sand of man not being depraved by nature, that every man in his natural state has the power to love, fear and obey God, as he is by nature ~ in other words, you do not believe that flesh in the scriptures is sinful and wicked from Adam onward. Brother, you have a big mountain to cross over before you can see that if you ever reach heaven/eternal life in the world to come, then it will by pure grace alone, without your works ever being considered by God.
 
Man’s responsibility to believe the gospel . That’s what saves. That passage gets misused and abused to make it say something never intended when isolated from the rest of the Bible. It gets twisted into a soteriological pretzel
I did not ask you this brother

I ask you who gets credit for believing. God or man

This passage can be abused by a Calvinist. But it does not make what Jesus said in error. It is Gods work that brings us to the point where we are able to chose to believe or continue in unbelief and as such, condemn ourselves.
Barnes says it best below

This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.
again you missed my whole point

Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Can you boast in the fact you saved yourself because you chose to trust the work of God and not your own work?
 
I did not ask you this brother

I ask you who gets credit for believing. God or man

This passage can be abused by a Calvinist. But it does not make what Jesus said in error. It is Gods work that brings us to the point where we are able to chose to believe or continue in unbelief and as such, condemn ourselves.

again you missed my whole point

Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Can you boast in the fact you saved yourself because you chose to trust the work of God and not your own work?
Man gets credit I have plenty of passages where Jesus teaches exactly that
 
I've told you the truth.
Faith is what we work, John 6:28-29.
I've taught the true gospel.
John 6:
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

it is the work of God that we believe in the one he sent, who is the one he sent, Christ.

Your teaching it is not Gods work. its YOUR WORK.

thats not the gospel my friend.

The only way to get works out of salvation is to get faith out of salvation and pervert the gospel into grace only.
lol

What bible do you read?
eph 2:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1. We are saved by grace period.
2. This grace is received through faith
3. It is not of works.

faith is not a work. The only way you can make faith a work is to make paul not know what he is talking about

also. grace and works do not mix. it is one or it is the other


Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE. But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK

John Calvin understood this.
I could care less what John Calvin thought. He is not my pastor. or my leader.
This is why he teaches we are saved before faith by Grace.
This is in error

we are saved by grace THROUGH faith
So that no works are in salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9 will not allow this perverted gospel.
We are saved by grace through faith....
Yes. By faith not by works.

faith is not a work.
Nothing wrong with works.
False teachers turned works into a dirty word not Jesus.
People turn works into a dirty word by making them required to be saved. making them self righteous works. Not works of love
 
So you can boast of saving yourself?

if man gets credit. Then where does Gods credit go?
Where did I say boast?

Strawman

Scripture teaches in both testaments God saves the one who believes. The just live by faith.

You are conflating salvation which God does the saving with man’s responsibility to believe and receive the gospel. Man’s accountable for his own belief or unbelief.

See John 3:16-18 for Jesus teaching on this which confirms what I just said is true.

Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

hope this helps !!!
 
Where did I say boast?

paul said not of works lest anyone should boast. He seperated faith from these works.

so when anyone says that faith is a work. they are in effect saying they are boasting of saving themselves. (I am not arguing from a calvinist perspectivbe, I am arguing from the word)
Strawman

Scripture teaches in both testaments God saves the one who believes. The just live by faith.
I never said otherwise.

when will you and others stop trying to see what I am sayign from a calvinist perspective.

Its not a strawman

For it is by GRACE I HAVE BEEN SAVED,

that is what saved me, grace

But God does not force it on us, He wants us to receive it in faith..

But faith s NOT WORKS. We can not earn salvation by trusting in God. We receive it.\
 
DUDE, and not once that makes any sense whatsoever.
and it never will to you

because your mind is darkened. and you do not want to see it it does not matter what I say, you will not believe it, I think you have proven that since I first said something that you did not agree with and took it as an attack on yourself..

Again. Moving on.

I am done playing kids games..
 
paul said not of works lest anyone should boast. He seperated faith from these works.

so when anyone says that faith is a work. they are in effect saying they are boasting of saving themselves. (I am not arguing from a calvinist perspectivbe, I am arguing from the word)

I never said otherwise.

when will you and others stop trying to see what I am sayign from a calvinist perspective.

Its not a strawman

For it is by GRACE I HAVE BEEN SAVED,

that is what saved me, grace

But God does not force it on us, He wants us to receive it in faith..

But faith s NOT WORKS. We can not earn salvation by trusting in God. We receive it.\
Faith is not a work so you are arguing a strawman
 
Another thing which is hard on a forum is that we have a tendency to talk past each other. Sometimes it takes several posts to flush it out when many times we are much closer to the other persons view than we think. Sometimes communication gets in the way. It’s much easier in person than through this media.

Heck my wife and kids many times misunderstand my texts 😂
 
@Jim

Greetings old friend, trust this finds you in good health ~or as John said it best:

3rd John 1:2​

“Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.”

Is my sincere prayer for you.

Yes, I agree ~ "the Bible, is the source for learning about God" ~ It is our only source, and I know you believe this to so, with all your heart. That's why you and I friends.

Psalms 119:63​

“I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.”

I have no other friends, but men and women that love and fear God, and I desire no others. Even if we do not see eye for eye.

Yes ~ but brother the gospel is only the power of God to believers, not to those that believe not, to them it is foolishness. Please consider carefully:

Romans 1:16​

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”
I am okey with most of that.

1 Corinthians 1:24​

“But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”

But, only so to those whom God has called out of darkness, into His marvelous light.
I am okey with that also but I differ with you on whom God has called out of darkness and how.
Very much so, since faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But, Jim, only those men and women that have been born of God first, can see, hear and have faith through the new man within our souls. I know well, this is so hard for folks to wrap their minds around this truth, since all they have heard all of their life is.... we are saved by grace through our faith, as though man in the flesh without the Spirit can have faith. Very few preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they must include man's works, since they truly believe that man in his nature state is not wicked, and all he needs is a push to get him going in the right direction spiritual speaking.
The reason that it is so hard for folks to wrap their minds around that is because it is not true. I know you believe it is truth but it is not.

Romans 8 tells us whom and how men are called by God. Verse 28 tells us it is those who love God that are called according to His purpose. Then verse 29 and 30 describe how those who love God are called. Clearly those whom God foreknew is referring to those who love Him. It is in God's foreknowledge that He knows who they were, are and will be. Verse 29 continues saying those are the ones he also predestined. Then verse 30 slays that He called those whom He predestined. They are then the ones whom God has justified.
Jim, faith is not the impulsive or moving cause of free Justification.
Well no, not exactly. God is the cause of justification, It is God who justifies. But whom does God justify? He justifies those who have faith. Paul tells us that in a number of ways, but most specifically in Romans 3:21-31, and you would know and understand that if you would only give up your KJVonly worship which is clearly by the force of Satan, himself.
You said: "that God causes one to believe, is false" I agree, that's not exactly correct, he does not the believing for us ~ it is not that God causes us to believe, but he gives the power for us to believe.

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

God does this by creating in his elect a new man after the image of his holy Son, Jesus Christ, which man has the power to hear, see, and believe.

Jim, your understanding is built upon the sand of man not being depraved by nature, that every man in his natural state has the power to love, fear and obey God, as he is by nature ~ in other words, you do not believe that flesh in the scriptures is sinful and wicked from Adam onward. Brother, you have a big mountain to cross over before you can see that if you ever reach heaven/eternal life in the world to come, then it will by pure grace alone, without your works ever being considered by God.
The only sand here that forms the base for understanding is the sand of the KJV rendering of Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Philippians 3:9. It was Abraham's faith in God that was credited to him for the righteousness of God. It is our faith in God, in Jesus Christ, that is credited to us for the righteousness of God.
 
1 Thessalonians 1:3,
- remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father

1John 3:23-24. All commandments of God are our works of faith, works of obedience.
 
1 Thessalonians 1:3,
- remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father
New International Version
We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ

Christian Standard Bible
We recall, in the presence of our God and Father, your work produced by faith, your labor motivated by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

International Standard Version
In the presence of our God and Father, we constantly remember how your faith is active, your love is hard at work, and your hope in our Lord Jesus the Messiah is enduring.

Your work of faith - That is, your showing or evincing faith. The reference is probably to acts of duty, holiness, and benevolence, which proved that they exercised faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Works of faith are those to which faith prompts, and which show that there is faith in the heart. This does not mean, therefore, a work of their own producing faith, but a work which showed that they had faith. Barnes

3. work of faith—the working reality of your faith; its alacrity in receiving the truth, and in evincing itself by its fruits. Not an otiose assent; but a realizing, working faith; not "in word only," but in one continuous chain of "work" (singular, not plural, works), 1Th 1:5-10; Jas 2:22. So "the work of faith" in 2Th 1:11 implies its perfect development (compare Jas 1:4). The other governing substantives similarly mark respectively the characteristic manifestation of the grace which follows each in the genitive. Faith, love, and hope, are the three great Christian graces (1Th 5:8; 1Co 13:13)JFB


Your work of faith; or the work of the faith of you, that is, their faith and the work of it; whereby he intimates their faith was true and real; a faith unfeigned, 2 Timothy 1:5; the faith of God’s elect, Titus 1:1; and so distinguished from a dead faith, Jam 2:26. They received the work in much affection, with joy of the Holy Ghost; they turned from idols to the service of the true God; they waited for the coming of Christ, &c.; here was the work of faith. Poole
 
Back
Top Bottom