Need a reason to believe Calvinists are who they claim to be?

[Titus]

@Titus

Titus I agree with you on this all-important truth.

2 Peter 3:16​

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

The apostles knew what constituted the holy scriptures before they left this world and John adding the Revelation of Jesus Christ to them finishing the whole cannon of scriptures. I do not buy into the lies of the RCC that so-called church fathers put them together, when we have Peter very own word telling us what was scripture even then!

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN
You have spoken Truth, John 17:17

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I do not think the work of water baptism says me. I do not think that and I have never said that.

these are your words

Doing the work of believing, which comes from the work of hearing and results in the work of repenting, confessing and being baptized in order to be saved, i.e., in order to be justified,

False. If I told you that I would send you $1M if you send me your address and you sent me your address and I sent $1M, that would not mean that you actually earned or merited that $1M. It could only be considered to be a gift. Conditions met, not merit.

No. that would be a work of merit. if I just recieved it, because you handed it to me, because I trusted you. then that would not be a work of merit

Also, if you told me I must get baptized, Go to church, and obey Gods commands if I want to keep that $1M then those would be works of merit.

False again. If repenting and faith is God's work in us, then any lack of repenting and faith in anyone is the lack of God's work in them.

No.

God worked in them also. They rejected him,, that's why they have no excuse. they can not say they did not understand, because they did..

Thus, you are blaming God for all who are lost simply because, according to your way of thinking, God didn't do the work of repenting and faith in them. Absolutely false.

Nope.

again stop trying to put me in a bottle. and listen to what I actually say

this is getting old

True but only because He has provided the information, data, and means whereby I can choose whether or not to believe in Him and repent. God established conditions whereby He has promised to save those who meet His conditions.

If we have to meet conditions. then the cross is insufficient. and did not pay it all

You CAN:"T meet the conditions. that's WHY you must receive salvation by Grace through faith.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I think that @Titus has demonstrated that you are very inconsistent and often irrational in the views you present here.

The only thing inconsistent is your failure to understand anything I am saying, because you are trying to put me in a box that I do nto fit in, because I do not believe what that box represents

Your discussion on the John 6:28-29 is very confusing. You reject the work of believing in Him as work that we do, So, then who does the work?

I do not reject anything

Once again, John 6 says it is the work of God that WE BELIEVE. It is my free will choice to believe

It does not say it is the work of God that he believes for us, what you and the other person have continued to falsly accuse me of.

either admit you made a mistake. or move on. Because you are falsly accusing me based on the box your tryign to put me in

As for my anti-Calvinist rant, if I present what I believe is the truth of the gospel of God, that can only be seen as an anti-Calvinist rant by the Calvinist.

OSAS and eternal security are not strickly calvinist views.

so your rant of tryign to put us all under calvinist views. You just falsly accuse people who are not calvinists..

maybe one day you will finally see this

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So then who is doing the work of believing if it is not a work that we do in order to obtain salvation and it is not God believing for us? If it is not a work that we do and not a work that God does, just who is doing the work of believing in Him?

How do you correlate John 6:28-29 which teaches that salvation is by the work of believing in Him with Paul's teaching of salvation by grace and not by works?

Answered numerous times

keep this up I will report you also...

 

[atpollard]

Our canon did not come from the Apostles but from uninspired men who decided what to include and exclude in the canon.

Sort of ...

The OT was already settled canon.

The 4 Gospels were circulated while the Apostle John was still alive and collected together into a 4 book set within 50 years of his death (while there were still people alive that could affirm John's validation of the Gospels).

The Pauline Letters were written by the Apostle Paul, circulated following his death, and compiled together about the same time as the 4 Gospels (again within living memory of people that could affirm authorship).

So the "canon" open to question is actually pretty small and offers nothing that is not affirmed in other places.

I only mean to point out that our ECF debt is more one of PRESERVATION than IDENTIFICATION. They preserved what God inspired ... the Apostles IDENTIFIED it themselves (PETER affirmed PAUL's writings, and PAUL affirmed LUKE and GOD affirmed JOHN ... ).

 

[praise_yeshua]

No truth to this.

Sure there is. Are you KJVOist? You seem to be preaching a definitive edition as literally being inspired. Seems like I remember running into you before on this topic.

Sir, Gods whole plan is to save mankind from their sins.
The only way we can know God is through the God breathed Inspired word.

You need to correct this falsehood. God's word is not bound by a manuscript. God's word literally spoke existence into being. There is no definitive/exhaustive list of words that you can possible claim saves or doesn't save.

You have bought into the catholic churches lies that they assembled they assembled the canon.

There you go. This false dilemma that we MUST chose between Protestant and Catholic doctrine.

I have one question for you: If what you claim is true.
Then why did God leave it up to uninspired, men not guided by God, Holy Spirit to assemble the only message directly from God on how man can be reconciled back to Him?

Did Moses have this "definitive list"? Or how about Enoch? Or maybe Abel?

People have sold this falsehood to you in order to limit what you believe to only the things they want you to know.

Sir, it makes absolutely no sense for God to have His own Son suffer and die to then leave it up to men that are not guided by God to put together the message of our salvation and destruction.

Your fathers and mine either accepted or rejected God a long time ago. You seem to be insisting that GOD MUST provide you better things for you than what they had themselves.

This is a broad topic but I'll have a debate with you on the subject. After all, I'm the one that began this dispute.

Again tell me why God would leave this up to uninspired men outside of the chosen men who were Inspired and wrote down the pages of inspiration?

You're leaving such to the choices of those before you. You're preaching a definitive all encompassing collection that only you approve of. You're making an argument from a position of authority that you do not have.

Do you not know you are contradicting the Bible itself?

There isn't just one bible. There are many bibles. The English word bible means nothing more than a collection.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sort of ...

The OT was already settled canon.

The 4 Gospels were circulated while the Apostle John was still alive and collected together into a 4 book set within 50 years of his death (while there were still people alive that could affirm John's validation of the Gospels).

The Pauline Letters were written by the Apostle Paul, circulated following his death, and compiled together about the same time as the 4 Gospels (again within living memory of people that could affirm authorship).

So the "canon" open to question is actually pretty small and offers nothing that is not affirmed in other places.

I only mean to point out that our ECF debt is more one of PRESERVATION than IDENTIFICATION. They preserved what God inspired ... the Apostles IDENTIFIED it themselves (PETER affirmed PAUL's writings, and PAUL affirmed LUKE and GOD affirmed JOHN ... ).

The OT canon is actually the most disputed. It was not "already settled". Augustine chose the LXX canonical list because that is exactly what the early church used. Jerome chose differently because he thought he knew differently. He couldn't even complete the Vulgate canon from Hebrew manuscripts he supposed were superior because he couldn't find any. They didn't exist.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@Titus

Titus I agree with you on this all-important truth.

2 Peter 3:16​

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

The apostles knew what constituted the holy scriptures before they left this world and John adding the Revelation of Jesus Christ to them finishing the whole cannon of scriptures. I do not buy into the lies of the RCC that so-called church fathers put them together, when we have Peter very own word telling us what was scripture even then!

We can debate this openly and exactingly. You can't connect what you hold into your hand today right now from what came about through the canonical processes of the early church councils.

You can have your own list. I have mine. I don't accept their choices either. However, you're literally referencing their choices. Not your own. THEIR choices.

I'm the only one actually rejecting their choices in this argument. You're blindly accept them.

 

[praise_yeshua]

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN
You have spoken Truth, John 17:17

Pom Poms are flying....

 

[Titus]

Sure there is. Are you KJVOist? You seem to be preaching a definitive edition as literally being inspired. Seems like I remember running into you before on this topic

No Sir, not KJV only.
Don't believe we've ever spoken prior.

You got any words from the mouth of James that indicates he teaches faith only salvation?
If so I'm ready to repent and be converted.
Quote James.

 

[praise_yeshua]

you are not following along very well.

Your assessment. Nothing more.

Never said that he did not, of course they all had a free will choice and the very second God left them to themselves they took off and left, which happen on the day they were created, (since they were not elected to stay!) when God left them, I'm assuming, but cannot prove it that it happen when God begin to create in Genesis 1:1~the elect angels were at least there~no record Satan ever rejoiced over creation. So assuming God created them just before He did the worlds, etc.

Job 38:7​

“When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

You appealed to their election within the context of what you believe about Sovereignty. We all know what you believe about such.

You are wasting your time, even trying to go there~folks do so, when they are out to deceive or are out to impress others concerning language that means absolutely nothing to a child of God, who speaks his native language, and has the scriptures in them which almost every tribe on earth has. We trust the KJV as the word of God for the English speaking people of the world, the word that our forefathers trusted in and so do we.

The KJV is horribly wrong in several places. The Word of God is not bound by the confines of early modern English's limitation. In fact, ole King James had his "Bishop" change Hebrews 13 in the KJV. He didn't like people resisting his authority. After all, James was the leader of the Church of England and believed in the divine rights of kings. You have what King James wanted you to have.

If 1st Timothy 5:21 say that there were elect angels, then there were others that were not elected, it is just that simple, either you believe what you read, or you reject it in favorite of your bias doctrine over the word of God, the choice is your. You have made your choice known, and so have I. The elect angels choice was made by God himself in their election, period. Why are you contesting this truth? Not a very good sign of a mature believer in Jesus Christ.

You could actually try to prove what I said is wrong with examples to the contrary. You can't. Thusly, you simply falsely claim I'm wrong and appeal to King James. That doesn't work at all.

2nd Peter 2:4

"For if God spared not the angles that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto the judgement."

I said the use of angel varies. In the context of 2nd Peter 2:4, the understanding is clear. However, you were not referencing 2nd Peter 2:4. So your appeal to proof here fails.

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Notice the difference between 2nd Peter and what you originally referenced. You're falsely conflate the two here. "Elect Angels" can possibly be a reference to the apostles or leaders of various assemblies in the early church.

 

[Jim]

I have a very mature understanding of the topic. You can learn from me if you'd like.... or not. You can't learn without staying engaged.

No egocentricity there - nosirreebob.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No Sir, not KJV only.
Don't believe we've ever spoken prior.

You got any words from the mouth of James that indicates he teaches faith only salvation?
If so I'm ready to repent and be converted.
Quote James.

So what you're claiming is a very broad and varying set of manuscripts that are not collected in a definitely copy. Please list your definitive copy.

I never said James taught "faith only salvation". I believe such. I believe it is rather obvious that the words you're referencing from "James" tie the necessity of works (that James approves of himself) to salvation.

This is ultimately the real desire of those who seek to preach such things. They want to make sure others are acting just like they expect them to. (Not saying James was doing this himself) I bet there are certain works you expect from others. Works that you approve of and works you do not. You thusly become the final authority of salvation in your "Approval".

I would not dare do that. I actually believe in the individual right of every believer to serve God independently of any other man's requirements.

This is generally referenced as the "Individual Priesthood of the Believer".

 

[praise_yeshua]

No egocentricity there - nosirreebob.

Humble me please......

 

[Jim]

these are your words

Those words do not say that baptism saves anyone. I am beginning to think that your reading comprehension skills are close to nonexistent.

No. that would be a work of merit. if I just recieved it, because you handed it to me, because I trusted you. then that would not be a work of merit

Again, not much comprehension.

You CAN:"T meet the conditions. that's WHY you must receive salvation by Grace through faith.

What? you can't hear, believe, repent, confess, or baptized? Interesting.

 

[Jim]

Humble me please......

Huh??

 

[Jim]

Answered numerous times

Not with any understanding.

keep this up I will report you also...

What? Keep asking you questions that you don't seem to have any answers to? Go right ahead.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Huh??

How about "correct me" please?

 

[Jim]

How about "correct me" please?

Doesn't seem to be worth the effort.

 

[Titus]

Did Moses have this "definitive list"? Or how about Enoch? Or maybe Abel?

Progressive revelation.

You need to correct this falsehood. God's word is not bound by a manuscript. God's word literally spoke existence into being. There is no definitive/exhaustive list of words that you can possible claim saves or doesn't save.

You really don't believe in the Bible.
2 Timothy 3:16-17,
- all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousness
- that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

1 Corinthians 13:9-10,
- for we know in part and we prophesy in part
- but when that which is perfect is come then that which is in part shall be done away

Jude 3,
- beloved when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was(past tense) once(once for all time) delivered(past tense) unto the saints

Gods revelation to man was already delivered once completed for all time

Titus 2:11,
- for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

You need to correct this falsehood. God's word is not bound by a manuscript. God's word literally spoke existence into being. There is no definitive/exhaustive list of words that you can possible claim saves or doesn't save

Galatians 1:8,
- but though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed

What was that about no definitive list ?

Do you not know that the new testament is a pattern?
Acts 2:42,
- and they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine(2 John 9:11)

2 Thessalonians 2:9,
- to make ourselves a  pattern to you to follow us

1 Timothy 1:16,
- that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering for a  pattern to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting

2 Timothy 1:13,
- hold fast the pattern of sound words which thou hast heard of me in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus