Moses and Jesus taught free will

[civic]

Huh? Speak plainly. Are you saying that Calvinism teaches that God damns anyone for what they have not done? But, to be honest, this sounds like a red herring, or moving the goalposts.

correct that is exactly what predestination/election teaches. God damns them before they were born and done anything. The Calvinist opposes the Arminian view of predestination that involves foreknowledge.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Sorry, but you should probably say things more like, "...doesn't make any sense to me"

Doesn't matter to me. Have it your way. It doesn't make sense to me. Oh before I leave. Make sure you say that about things that don't make sense to you OK ....just don't tell people it doesn't make sense.

Fair enough.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Huh? Speak plainly. Are you saying that Calvinism teaches that God damns anyone for what they have not done? But, to be honest, this sounds like a red herring, or moving the goalposts.

correct that is exactly what predestination/election teaches. God damns them before they were born and done anything. The Calvinist opposes the Arminian view of predestination that involves foreknowledge.

God damns them, is not the same thing as creating them for their many uses, to include that end, which is by judgement of what they HAVE done. Are they irrevocably going to hell? Yes. Why? Because they have sinned. Did God create them for that end? Yes, he did. Is that the only reason why he created them? Of course not!

But this is a side track from the original question of "God showing favoritism". I'm not sure why you brought it up.

 

[civic]

makesends said:
Huh? Speak plainly. Are you saying that Calvinism teaches that God damns anyone for what they have not done? But, to be honest, this sounds like a red herring, or moving the goalposts.

God damns them, is not the same thing as creating them for their many uses, to include that end, which is by judgement of what they HAVE done. Are they irrevocably going to hell? Yes. Why? Because they have sinned. Did God create them for that end? Yes, he did. Is that the only reason why he created them? Of course not!

But this is a side track from the original question of "God showing favoritism". I'm not sure why you brought it up.

No God cteated them for destruction without ever having any chance to believe or receive the gospel through regeneration. Remember calvinists believe God must regenerate you first prior to believing since you are a corpse who is dead. So all those who God does not regenerate were predestined to damnation the elect reprobates in double predestination.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
No, I am not saying that Jesus' human nature "spent time saying things which were not the will of the Father",

Sorry makesends but that's nonsense and a diversion. You've injected here something you take as a given which you haven't substantiated as anywhere near true and that's this....that when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus you don't want it to be that he was bringing a natural illustrations to connect to a spiritual

reality (the wind being like the Spirit) Because it was a natural comparison you want to make it seem that Jesus was in the flesh and surely wasn't seeking to cause Nicodemus to believe.

That's why you said the words, "...that Jesus human nature" I believe he had that but how you're using it is amiss.

Uh, no. I wasn't even thinking of John 3 at the time I said that. You apparently don't know what was going on in my mind. But if I had said, "Jesus", instead of "Jesus' human nature", it wouldn't made no difference as to the rest of what I said. I just wanted to point out that his 'dual nature' (which I don't like that term) means that he had sometimes feelings that were entirely human, as I continued to develop farther on in the post.

Sure there are! I don't deny that. I do reject though how you try to swing that around to make it seem that when Jesus sought to make people to believe (by natural illustrations) that he was somehow not walking in the Spirit. Or to put it another way you're rejecting Jn 3 : 8 as not meaning anything for it can't be used for spiritual effect and change.

Yeah, you definitely are reading into this what I did not imply. I did not mean he was not walking in the Spirit. I meant that he was, after all, human, and not fully abreast of all God had decreed to come to pass.

makesends said:
"Want" is an interesting word, when applied by humans to God. God lacks nothing,

People say that like a religious mantra but can be challenged on certain levels. I say he lacks the joy of not always see us in obedience to him. The Bible clearly says the Holy Spirit can be grieved.

That is not a lack. If it is non-existent, it is a bogus concept. You are inserting what you imagine as substantial, but it is not of substance. The Spirit can indeed grieve, as can the Father and Son. How is that a lack of something? When God is grieved, he also has joy. The grief too, is by his decree/plan. When the Christ suffered, God was wounded. Yet, for the joy set before him...

makesends said:
and intends nothing except what is sure to come to pass.

But how you're using this word "intends" is very deceptive. That's your hyper Calvinistic way of thinking everything that is, exists because God ordained it. Sorry don't agree with it.

Well, you're going to have a tough time logically showing how anything can be, that was not intentionally caused by the Omniscient Creator

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well, you're going to have a tough time logically showing how anything can be, that was not intentionally caused by the Omniscient Creator

Amazing simple....

Jer 23:31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
Jer 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

God can not lie.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie,

Do you mind explaining your comments in relation to what the Scriptures declare?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Man has a tendency to call sin, some things that God does not. I was brought up thinking that Rock n Roll Music was almost as bad as dancing which was as bad as drinking which was right up there with adultery which was tantamount to rape and murder. I have even heard on these forums that some things Jesus did were sin.

But this is off topic.

Why do Baptists never make love standing up? Because someone might walk in and think they're dancing.

(Old Baptist joke.)

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The fact that it is impossible for God to lie is often misunderstood to mean He is so righteous, he can't do something bad like "lie".

1. He can't sin because sin is opposition to God. God cannot oppose Himself.
2. He can't lie because whatever He says would become true. If God said tomorrow that the sky is green, the sky would become green.
3. He CAN ordain that a lie be told. When an angel suggested a solution to a problem would be to put a lying spirit in a prophet, God approved the plan.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The fact that it is impossible for God to lie is often misunderstood to mean He is so righteous, he can't do something bad like "lie".

How about too good to lie? Goodness is more than how you view righteousness. However, the Scriptures oppose your comments.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1. He can't sin because sin is opposition to God. God cannot oppose Himself.
2. He can't lie because whatever He says would become true. If God said tomorrow that the sky is green, the sky would become green.
3. He CAN ordain that a lie be told. When an angel suggested a solution to a problem would be to put a lying spirit in a prophet, God approved the plan.

How can putting a lying spirit in a prophet possible solve a problem? Please give details. You're giving a specific scenario that needs to be explained?

Proposing a lie, does nothing more than create more lies. Lying is sin. Sin is progressive. It is never anything other than progressive. No lie is of the truth. Lies....equal more lies equal more lies.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

There are so many Scriptures that contradict your personal views and claims.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

1 Kings 22:20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

 

[praise_yeshua]

1 Kings 22:20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

How does your claims concerning this match to the typical claim from the Calvinist who references

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

I can deal with either one but the claims are different. I need to see consistency in the claims.

If what you claim about 1 Kings 22:20 is true, then what does Proverbs 21:1 mean?

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard just said God shows favoritism in his last post but I agree with you God does not.

To be fair, I was responding to a post that had already redefined "favoritism" as the Calvinist teaching that "God saves people", so I was responding to that post using the definition of "favoritism" provided. It is a fact that "Jesus saves" and it is a fact that "not all are saved", so "God saves people" = "favoritism" was not an unreasonable premise.

Did God show favor* towards YOU when He saved YOU?
God God showed favor* towards ME when He saved ME.

• favor [Merriam-Webster]: friendly regard shown toward another especially by a superior; gracious kindness (also an act of such kindness); effort in one's behalf or interest; a special privilege or right granted;

 

[civic]

To be fair, I was responding to a post that had already redefined "favoritism" as the Calvinist teaching that "God saves people", so I was responding to that post using the definition of "favoritism" provided. It is a fact that "Jesus saves" and it is a fact that "not all are saved", so "God saves people" = "favoritism" was not an unreasonable premise.

Did God show favor* towards YOU when He saved YOU?
God God showed favor* towards ME when He saved ME.

• favor [Merriam-Webster]: friendly regard shown toward another especially by a superior; gracious kindness (also an act of such kindness); effort in one's behalf or interest; a special privilege or right granted;

so there are classes of special sinners who are born dead in their sins ?

there are special classes of sinners that all are born under sin and condemnation ?

doesn't God hate all sinners and hate all sin ?

hmmmmm

 

[atpollard]

so there are classes of special sinners who are born dead in their sins ?

there are special classes of sinners that all are born under sin and condemnation ?

doesn't God hate all sinners and hate all sin ?

hmmmmm

Really?
Is that something you read in Calvin's Institutes? [Which I never read.]
Is that something you read from Augustine? [Whom I never read.]

I never read about that in MY BIBLE! [The source of my THEOLOGY.]

I read ALL are sinners under condemnation: "And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest."​

​

I read that God did something about it through Jesus: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." ... God LOVED us and SAVED us by His GRACE (but not ALL without exception will be in Christ in heaven).​

 

[praise_yeshua]

Did God show favor* towards YOU when He saved YOU?
God God showed favor* towards ME when He saved ME.

• favor [Merriam-Webster]: friendly regard shown toward another especially by a superior; gracious kindness (also an act of such kindness); effort in one's behalf or interest; a special privilege or right granted;

So how can you respond in such a manner to confirm what @civic said and not recognize you have?

You've fabricated a special class of sinner that is favored.

 

[civic]

So how can you respond in such a manner to confirm what @civic said and not recognize you have?

You've fabricated a special class of sinner that is favored.

exactly its the turning a blind eye to the facts with that systematic as I pointed out earlier.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

How does your claims concerning this match to the typical claim from the Calvinist who references

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

I can deal with either one but the claims are different. I need to see consistency in the claims.

If what you claim about 1 Kings 22:20 is true, then what does Proverbs 21:1 mean?

Both mean what they say. Which words are you having trouble understanding? I know you keep trying to get me to react to your posts, but other than this simple answer, I will not interact with you until you apologize for saying I called Jesus a liar.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I know you keep trying to get me to react to your posts, but other than this simple answer, I will not interact with you until you apologize for saying I called Jesus a liar.

I believe you're overreacting to what I said. From what I remember.... I said "So... Jesus is a liar?" or "you're basically calling Jesus a liar".

You can believe anything you want to believe. I get along with most anybody but I have little problem with challenging anyone on what they believe. You know that I've always been fair to you in most anything. We agree on many thing. We disagree on this. I am challenging you.

Ask @civic.... I didn't argue with him on Calvinism for a very long time. I didn't because of all the friends I've lost in that conversation. I didn't lose them from my perspective. I still care greatly about them. I still mourn over the situation. I hate it. However, I decided a long time ago to not let friendships stop me from expressing my beliefs clearly. Feel free to do the same. I've never tried to restrict what you've had to say about anything. As Christians, we have fellowship in the Truth. We fellowship in the Son.

Both mean what they say. Which words are you having trouble understanding?

You are improperly apply the words of 1 Kings 22. For example, even John Gill says....

And the Lord said, who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead?.... Not that it can be supposed that the Lord entered into a consultation with the angels upon this subject; only that it was the decree of God that he should go thither, and fall by the hand of the man whom he had let go, as a just punishment of him:

I have meet Calvinists that will make the argument you're making from 1 Kings 22. I have meet Calvinists who make the argument from Proverbs 21.

Yes. Both verses are true but the arguments being made are not compatible with one another. Either God directly steers the heart of the King or God sends evil spirits to direct the King.

Which argument do you choose?

 

[atpollard]

So how can you respond in such a manner to confirm what @civic said and not recognize you have?

You've fabricated a special class of sinner that is favored.

Are you NOT a sinner or has Jesus NOT shown you favor?
I am confused exactly which claim you are denying.

If YOU deny neither, then YOU are a sinner that has been shown special favor (as defined by Merriam-Webster and illustrated by the forgiveness of our sin, rebirth by the Holy Spirit and promise of glorification to come). Then you are a "special class of sinner" as @civic chose to word it, or "Child of God, Saint, in Christ, redeemed" as the Bible chooses to word it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you NOT a sinner or has Jesus NOT shown you favor?
I am confused exactly which claim you are denying.

If YOU deny neither, then YOU are a sinner that has been shown special favor (as defined by Merriam-Webster and illustrated by the forgiveness of our sin, rebirth by the Holy Spirit and promise of glorification to come). Then you are a "special class of sinner" as @civic chose to word it, or "Child of God, Saint, in Christ, redeemed" as the Bible chooses to word it.

When did Jesus show you favor? When you were a sinner?

This is getting interesting.... Don't go away. Stick around.