Doug Brents
Well-known member
Where do you find that in Scripture. I cannot find anywhere in Scripture that it says anything link this. Quite the opposite, it says that baptism is the point at which we receive salvation.
Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
- Thread starter Red Baker
- Start date
Truther
Well-known member
And that repentance and remission of sins would be preached in his name beginning where?
Right you skipped it. Jerusalem.
What happened in Jerusalem?
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Your whole your entire post debunked itself.
Truther
Well-known member
God’s gift to the church is the king James version of the Bible.
Truther
Well-known member
Who dat?
Book, Chapter, and verse?
Obadiah
Well-known member
You realize that a great deal of controversy surrounds the subject of baptism. You hold to the minority view. The majority view is
that a person does not need to be baptized to experience the new birth.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Jesus was in the minority view in almost all of His teaching during His life. It is not the majority or minority that matters, but what God says.
Jesus said, He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
God instructed Ananias to tell Paul, "... be baptized and wash away your sins".
God told Peter to write, "baptism now saves you".
Jesus said, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
God told Paul to tell us in two places that the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sins and unite us with Christ during baptism.
There is no debate or discussion here. God gives His gifts where He determines He wants them. And He has said that He will give His gift of salvation to those who surrender their will to His and submit to Him in repentance, accepting and confessing Him as Lord, and in baptism. Then one is saved, the Spirit comes to live in his life, and he begins to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit.
Obadiah
Well-known member
Thank you for expressing your minority view on baptism. You do realize that everything in your post can be turned around to prove baptism does not save you. Apparently there is a debate and a discussion on this topic as we're reaching 1500 post in this thread.
Baptism does not save you, justification is by faith alone In what Jesus did on the cross. Getting dipped in a tub of water doesn't save you. God doesn't need you to jump through any hoops in order to be saved.
On top of that you have the controversy, the debate and the discussion on how one must be baptized. Since It seems there are questions over just about every aspect of the sacrament: the origin or institution of baptism; the meaning of baptism; the administration of baptism (Who is permitted and authorized to baptize people?); the formula for baptism (Is baptism to be administered only in the name of Jesus or in the names of all three persons of the Trinity?); the mode of baptism (Is baptism to be by sprinkling, pouring, dipping, or immersion?); and the proper recipients of baptism (Is it restricted to adults who have made credible professions of faith or may infants be baptized as well?).
So to assume baptism is necessary for salvation when the body of Christ cannot even agree on the method of baptism leads to a continued controversy.
Johann
Well-known member
Not only the controversial topic on baptism but some core doctrines as well.
Fellow Traveler
Active member
Correct, when God enters into covenants with His people, making promises of redemption to them, His pattern is to attest to the authenticity of the covenant by giving some kind of external sign. For instance, when He promised Noah that He would never destroy the world again through a flood, God set His rainbow in the sky. That rainbow was a visible sign that confirmed the promise of God for the future of this planet. He was saying that every time we see a rainbow, we should be reminded that God has promised never to destroy the world again with a flood.
It's the same with baptism, it's a sign that we are entering into a covenant relationship with God. If for some reason you feel like you're losing your salvation you can look back on your baptism ceremony, just like a rainbow. And be reminded of what Jesus did and accomplished on the cross for you.
The human tendency is, we need to help Jesus out by doing our part in our salvation. Therefore baptism is our way of helping Jesus out by doing our part. The good news is he doesn't need our help. He did it all by hanging on a cross and rising from the grave.
Fellow Traveler
Active member
It may have been an online commentary.
THE KING JAMES BIBLE ONLY POSITION AND TRUE PENTECOSTALISM
I was speaking in reference to scripture where
1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
teachers are stated as being a gift to the church,
and it was interposed that the KJV was the gift to the church.
Now I use and appreciate the KJV, but I would not go as far as to advocate for a KJV only position.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
There is a debate because Satan has his claws sunk so deeply in the souls of "the majority" that they wouldn't recognize truth if it bit them.
Do you realize that the only place in all of Scripture that the idea of "faith alone" or "faith only" appears is in James 2:24 where God says, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." The ONLY PLACE in all of Scripture that "faith alone" appears, and it is NOT by faith alone, but by works also that man is justified.
All of those topics are either covered in Scripture or are immaterial to the concept at large.
Who is permitted to baptize is not addressed at all, so there is no restriction on who can baptize, because it is not the baptizer who matter, but the name/authority in which person is baptized.
The word baptize in itself dictates the method of administration, because the word in the original language means to immerse/immersion. It is not sprinkling, or pouring, or splattering, etc.; immersion is the only method of immersing.
Can infants be baptized is addressed in that a person must first hear the Word and believe it before baptism has any meaning to them. So an infant who cannot understand the Word receives no value from being baptized.
But these ancillary arguments do not invalidate the necessity of baptism. Nor do they remove it from being the point at which sins are removed from a person.
That is not a confirmation of the promise. It is a reminder of the promise.
Baptism does nothing to "help Jesus out", or add to our salvation in any way. Did the widow help God to make more oil by obeying and pouring the oil into all the jars she could gather? Did the Israelites help God destroy the walls of Jericho by marching around them? Did Naaman help God cleanse him by dipping in Jordan seven times? No, none of these people helped God's miraculous, wonderful, overwhelming power change nature. But if they had not obeyed they would not have received God's blessing. The widow would have lost her son. The walls of Jericho would have remained standing. Naaman would have remained a leper. But because of their obedience they received grace from God. And these are just a few of the dozens of examples in the OT Scriptures of how God deals with Man.
I disagree the word baptizo can be translated wash as it is in scripture. It is used in contexts where the modal action is pouring and where the modal action is a rinsing of the hands
Mark 7:3–4 (KJV 1900) — 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, (baptizo) they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing (baptismos) of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mark 7:3 (for the Pharisees, and indeed all the Jews who observed the tradition of the elders, eat not until they have washed their hands by pouring a little water upon them: lo A Campbell
Mar 7:4 and if they be come from the market, by dipping them; and many other usages there are, which they have adopted, as immersions of cups and pots, and brazen vessels and beds
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I disagree the word baptizo can be translated wash as it is in scripture. It is used in contexts where the modal action is pouring and where the modal action is a rinsing of the hands
Mark 7:3–4 (KJV 1900) — 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, (baptizo) they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing (baptismos) of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mark 7:3 (for the Pharisees, and indeed all the Jews who observed the tradition of the elders, eat not until they have washed their hands by pouring a little water upon them: lo A Campbell
Mar 7:4 and if they be come from the market, by dipping them; and many other usages there are, which they have adopted, as immersions of cups and pots, and brazen vessels and beds
Baptizo Definition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 76
- to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
- to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe, to cleanse by dipping or submerging,
- to overwhelm
Is a body buried by pouring a shovel full of dirt over its back? No.
No, a body is buried when it is completely immersed in the ground. So it is with baptism (Rom 6:1-7).
koberstein
Active member
Jesus the Messiah.
koberstein
Active member
Not so much. I dropped mine in a dumpster years ago. I use my Messianic Bible or the Tree of Life Bible.
