Justice "served" in the Atonement?

[Joe]

You could not find even one OT verse that explicitly talks about regeneration happening in OT times. That proves my point, thank you.

I agree. The washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit comes after one places faith in Jesus Christ.

If the Spirit of God was already in people washing and regenerating them

• Why would God promise in Ezekiel 36:25-27, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."
• Why would God promise in Joel 2:28, “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions."?
• Why would John the Baptist say, "He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" if it was a common occurance?
• Why would our Lord say to the people during the festival of booths, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."?
• Why would our Lord cry "out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." And why would the Apostle John follow up what our Lord was meaning by writing, "But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:37-39)
• Why would Jesus tell the disciples, "I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees-recognizes Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you". (John 14:16-17)
• Why would Jesus tell the disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you". (John 16:7)
• Why would our Lord tell the disciples, "behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you" and then instruct the disciples to "stay in the city until they are clothed with power from on high"?
• Why would Peter testify to the Jewish crowd, "This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing." (Act 2:32-33)
• Why would Peter say to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”(Act 2:38-39)

If the Spirit of God was already in people washing and regenerating them under the Old Covenant, why didn't anyone know it including our Lord?

The answer is quite simple, the Spirit of God was with the Jewish people not in them. The Apostle John mentions this in John 7: 39 and our Lord did too in John 14:7.

And Nicodemus being a teacher of Israel was rebuked by the Lord for not already knowing the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit was necessary to see the Kingdom of God. Why did the Lord rebuke him? Because of the prophecies of the spiritual blessing in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Joel. If he understood those promises of God and the period when they would occur as stated by Joel, Nicodemus would not have questioned the Lord but worship Him as the promised Messiah.

I could continue but is is redundant to do so. It is quite evident that the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit came after Jesus died, resurrected, and gave the Holy Spirit to those who place faith in Him.

God Bless

 

[Dizerner]

God did not demand justice in the atonement of Christ

That's the most beautiful and amazing thing about the Cross.

God can uphold justice and mercy at the same time, without sacrificing either one.

Notice below that God does not sacrifice justice for mercy, there is no "setting aside" of justice by God, not one jot or tittle.

This is why Jesus didn't just throw the Law of God away so that no one would be guilty—he fulfilled it, he said "It is complete!"


Mercy and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed. (Ps. 85:10 NKJ)

Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face. (Ps. 89:14 NKJ)

I will sing of mercy and justice; To You, O LORD, I will sing praises. (Ps. 101:1 NKJ)

In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth,
in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness." (Isa. 16:5 NKJ)

And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; (Isa. 30:18 NKJ)

"I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In lovingkindness and mercy; (Hos. 2:19 NKJ)

So you, by the help of your God, return; Observe mercy and justice (Hos. 12:6 NKJ)

and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy (Matt. 23:23 NKJ)


A Merciful God Who Doesn’t Clear the Guilty
On September 15, 2022 By Jarrett Ray Fletcher

Throughout the Bible, there is a seeming paradox: God is holy and just, but He is also loving and forgiving. God declares these things to be true about Himself in Exodus 34. He tells Moses that He is a “merciful and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love” (Exodus 34:6). But He also says that He will by no means clear the guilty (Exodus 34:7). We are left with the question: how can God be gracious, loving, and merciful, while also being a just, holy, fair judge of the guilty?

In Romans, Paul considers the answer to this question to be evidence of “the righteousness of God” (Romans 3:26). If God is truly righteous, how can He acquit the guilty? How can He forgive sin? How can He show pardon to sinners without violating His holiness (Lev. 19:2)? In other words, how can he be just and justify (i.e. declare righteous) sinners?

One might be tempted to believe that the answer comes in minimizing mankind’s sinfulness in light of God’s holiness. Maybe we really aren’t that bad after all. Maybe it’s no big deal for God to overlook our sins. But Paul doesn’t give us that option. He claims that all mankind falls short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). So much so that everyone is without excuse (Romans 1:20). We are all sinners deserving judgment for not glorifying God and not giving thanks to Him (Romans 1:21). Furthermore, we cannot work our way into right standing with God (Romans 3:21-22). Thus, to simply overlook our sin would compromise God’s holiness. But He desires to save us. So how can He forgive us of ours sins and give us the righteousness we need while remaining righteous and just?

The answer comes in the person of Christ and is understood in the doctrine of substitutionary atonement. In Romans 3, after establishing that all fall short of God’s glory, Paul claims that all those who believe in Christ will be justified as a gift of God’s grace through the redemption which is in Jesus (Romans 3:24). God sends His Son to redeem us and justify us. In other words, to set us free from the penalty of and our slavery to sin (redemption), and to declare us righteous in His sight (justification). But how does He do that?

In the next verse, Paul tells us that God accomplishes this redemption and justification by giving His Son as an atoning sacrifice (Romans 3:25). The phrase atoning sacrifice implies that Christ’s death on the cross satisfied God’s righteous wrath against sin. By His sacrifice, He has atoned for our sin and has appeased the wrath of God. How? By standing in our place as our substitute, as if He was us. By taking the judgment of God that all of our sins deserve.

Peter describes it this way, “Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God” (1 Pet. 3:18). Did you catch that? The righteous for the unrighteous. That’s substitution. The same truth is taught in 2 Corinthians 5:21, “God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” These passages teach that Jesus took the full punishment that we deserve for our sins as a substitute in our place in order that we might become righteous in Him.

Because of the cross of Christ, God remains just. He has judged sin. He has “by no means cleared the guilty” (Exod. 34:7). His Son was judged as the guilty party, who suffered it willingly in order to save us. He is, after all, “a merciful and gracious God” (Exod. 34:6). As a result, we are redeemed from the penalty and effects of sin. But God can also justify us, not only because our sins are forgiven, but because we are given the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Here’s substitution in a nutshell: He takes our sin and the penalty for it. He gives us His righteousness and the reward of it.

That’s the amazing gift of substitution. It is the gift of God’s grace offered to all who have faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:24; 26). Because of Christ and His work, God remains just and can justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

That’s good news!



He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD. — Proverbs

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness — Romans

 

[civic]

That's the most beautiful and amazing thing about the Cross.

God can uphold justice and mercy at the same time, without sacrificing either one.

Notice below that God does not sacrifice justice for mercy, there is no "setting aside" of justice by God, not one jot or tittle.

This is why Jesus didn't just throw the Law of God away so that no one would be guilty—he fulfilled it, he said "It is complete!"


Mercy and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed. (Ps. 85:10 NKJ)

Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face. (Ps. 89:14 NKJ)

I will sing of mercy and justice; To You, O LORD, I will sing praises. (Ps. 101:1 NKJ)

In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth,
in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness." (Isa. 16:5 NKJ)

And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; (Isa. 30:18 NKJ)

"I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In lovingkindness and mercy; (Hos. 2:19 NKJ)

So you, by the help of your God, return; Observe mercy and justice (Hos. 12:6 NKJ)

and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy (Matt. 23:23 NKJ)


A Merciful God Who Doesn’t Clear the Guilty
On September 15, 2022 By Jarrett Ray Fletcher

Throughout the Bible, there is a seeming paradox: God is holy and just, but He is also loving and forgiving. God declares these things to be true about Himself in Exodus 34. He tells Moses that He is a “merciful and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love” (Exodus 34:6). But He also says that He will by no means clear the guilty (Exodus 34:7). We are left with the question: how can God be gracious, loving, and merciful, while also being a just, holy, fair judge of the guilty?

In Romans, Paul considers the answer to this question to be evidence of “the righteousness of God” (Romans 3:26). If God is truly righteous, how can He acquit the guilty? How can He forgive sin? How can He show pardon to sinners without violating His holiness (Lev. 19:2)? In other words, how can he be just and justify (i.e. declare righteous) sinners?

One might be tempted to believe that the answer comes in minimizing mankind’s sinfulness in light of God’s holiness. Maybe we really aren’t that bad after all. Maybe it’s no big deal for God to overlook our sins. But Paul doesn’t give us that option. He claims that all mankind falls short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). So much so that everyone is without excuse (Romans 1:20). We are all sinners deserving judgment for not glorifying God and not giving thanks to Him (Romans 1:21). Furthermore, we cannot work our way into right standing with God (Romans 3:21-22). Thus, to simply overlook our sin would compromise God’s holiness. But He desires to save us. So how can He forgive us of ours sins and give us the righteousness we need while remaining righteous and just?

The answer comes in the person of Christ and is understood in the doctrine of substitutionary atonement. In Romans 3, after establishing that all fall short of God’s glory, Paul claims that all those who believe in Christ will be justified as a gift of God’s grace through the redemption which is in Jesus (Romans 3:24). God sends His Son to redeem us and justify us. In other words, to set us free from the penalty of and our slavery to sin (redemption), and to declare us righteous in His sight (justification). But how does He do that?

In the next verse, Paul tells us that God accomplishes this redemption and justification by giving His Son as an atoning sacrifice (Romans 3:25). The phrase atoning sacrifice implies that Christ’s death on the cross satisfied God’s righteous wrath against sin. By His sacrifice, He has atoned for our sin and has appeased the wrath of God. How? By standing in our place as our substitute, as if He was us. By taking the judgment of God that all of our sins deserve.

Peter describes it this way, “Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God” (1 Pet. 3:18). Did you catch that? The righteous for the unrighteous. That’s substitution. The same truth is taught in 2 Corinthians 5:21, “God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” These passages teach that Jesus took the full punishment that we deserve for our sins as a substitute in our place in order that we might become righteous in Him.

Because of the cross of Christ, God remains just. He has judged sin. He has “by no means cleared the guilty” (Exod. 34:7). His Son was judged as the guilty party, who suffered it willingly in order to save us. He is, after all, “a merciful and gracious God” (Exod. 34:6). As a result, we are redeemed from the penalty and effects of sin. But God can also justify us, not only because our sins are forgiven, but because we are given the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Here’s substitution in a nutshell: He takes our sin and the penalty for it. He gives us His righteousness and the reward of it.

That’s the amazing gift of substitution. It is the gift of God’s grace offered to all who have faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:24; 26). Because of Christ and His work, God remains just and can justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

That’s good news!



He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD. — Proverbs

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness — Romans

Except nowhere does God say His Son was guilty of anything on the cross or that justice was served or demanded by the Father towards the Son. The same goes with wrath. Its not found in Scripture but in the teachings of men.

Gods justice is served via the faithfulness of Christ ( Romans 1:16-17, Romans 3:21-22. ) Romans 5:1- Because we have been justified out of the faith/faithfulness, we have peace with God.

God has made us right/just by the faithfulness of Christ, by which we have peace with God through Jesus Christ. God has done this apart from the law. Romans 3:21. Gods "justice " is served by the faithfulness of Christ. Jesus is the righteous servant, the one who brings forth justice to the nations. Isaiah 42:1-4. He is the covenant, the new covenant Romans 10:4, Hebrews 8-9, the one whom the law is fulfilled and the one who reveals Gods righteousness/the just one for the nations both Jew and Gentile.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. For it reveals the justice of God from faith to faith- Romans 1:16-17. Gods love, grace, mercy and redemption are at the center of the cross.

The cross if anything was injustice. The murder of the innocent is injustice in any court of law. He was tried on false charges by false witnessses, convicted without evidence and murdered without due process of the law. They killed Him, not God. His life was taken unlawfully and injustice was served. The very ones He came to save murdered Him. Those who commit murder as the law of God states must die, but Jesus murderers lived. Thats injustice. The entire penal aspect of the atonement is a farce.

If the killing of Jesus was a "righteous" act that pleased God then why would those who murdered Him need forgiveness ? The fact is a crime was committed by those who killed Jesus and were guilty for His death. There was no justice but injustice in His death. I will be adding more of this to my paper on the Nature of God in the Atonement exposing more false teachings of PSA.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Joe]

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

There must be an appeal to "law" to establish "justice". An appeal to the Penal aspects of Atonement require "law". A "legal" framework.

Not only notice that the law could not do bring life as referenced in Romans 8:3.....

That same law that could not bring life.... COULD NOT completely condemn/establish justice for sin.

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This is the proper aspect of dealing with justice in the Atonement.

What say you?

The righteousness of God is that sin be judged, and it was when Adam transgressed. When he transgressed, all men were condemned, for all men sin. The only way to ransom mankind from death and the grave, which is the result of God's condemnation for sin, is for a sinless Son of Man to die for their release.

This release was not for some men but for all mankind. Every person who ever lived will rise from death and the grave to be judged by Jesus Christ. He paid the ransom price for all. As the Apostle Paul wrote, "that by the grace of God he should taste of death for everyone". And, "he (God) has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

The death of our Lord was not to pay the price for our sin, but to pay the price for our release-redemption from death and the grave-the judgment of God for sinning. This is why He said, "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life."

The death of our sinless Lord on account of our sins is when God demonstrated His righteousness for justifying the unjust. In His merciful justice, God laid upon His own sinless Son the sins of us all, so that we sinners would be blameless of sin. As a sin offering is spotless and without defect, it dies for the sins of the sinner, so the sinner is forgiven and considered to be without sin-blameless, so it is in the reality of our Lord. He carried away our sins in His bodily death, meaning God sent Him to die explicitly for our sins. This single act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. One may ask will all men be saved then. No, only those who receive God's free gift of righteousness by faith.

The messaging God was showing mankind in the OT sacrificial system is that a sin offering takes away our sins from us by dying for them. The sin offering is not condemned but holy to the Lord. It is without defect, perfect and remains that way. And as John the Baptist said seeing Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" And as the Apostle Paul said about our Lord, "holy, harmless, undefiled, and separated from sinners, and having become higher than the heavens".

The justice of God is death for sin. His mercy is forgiveness-removal of our sins in the death of His own Son.

The only way to receive this free gift of righteousness is by trusting in Jesus Christ and His message. To those who do not, they await judgment before the One who tasted death for them. If their name is not found in the Book of Life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death-condemnation of God for transgressing against Him.


God Bless

 

[praise_yeshua]

The righteousness of God is that sin be judged,

I disagree with this particular statement. . The righteousness of God is that sin not be judged.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This release was not for some men but for all mankind. Every person who ever lived will rise from death and the grave to be judged by Jesus Christ. He paid the ransom price for all. As the Apostle Paul wrote, "that by the grace of God he should taste of death for everyone". And, "he (God) has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

The death of our Lord was not to pay the price for our sin, but to pay the price for our release-redemption from death and the grave-the judgment of God for sinning. This is why He said, "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life."

I don't particular believe there is this "ransom" that exists that is owed to "someone". There is talk of "ransom" within the Scriptures but I believe it is misunderstood. ἀντίλυτρον is only found once in all of Scripture. It simply indicates a price given or price paid. That "price" isn't entirely about debt. It is the price given in context of the value of gift of Grace for Eternal life.

I've said this many times recent but I'll say it again. We see death differently that we should. Travail is but for a moment. Death is liberty. We will live every day of our earthly lives not knowing when our final moment in this body will come. We are "wrapped" in death. Absent the continual and constant Grace afford us in the kindness and gentleness of God, we have absolutely NOTHING.

The right to Eternal Life is of great value. Contrast this against our weaknesses and inability to help ourselves, and I believe you can start to understand the value of Eternal life.

The death of our sinless Lord on account of our sins is when God demonstrated His righteousness for justifying the unjust. In His merciful justice, God laid upon His own sinless Son the sins of us all, so that we sinners would be blameless of sin. As a sin offering is spotless and without defect, it dies for the sins of the sinner, so the sinner is forgiven and considered to be without sin-blameless, so it is in the reality of our Lord. He carried away our sins in His bodily death, meaning God sent Him to die explicitly for our sins. This single act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. One may ask will all men be saved then. No, only those who receive God's free gift of righteousness by faith.

The messaging God was showing mankind in the OT sacrificial system is that a sin offering takes away our sins from us by dying for them. The sin offering is not condemned but holy to the Lord. It is without defect, perfect and remains that way. And as John the Baptist said seeing Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" And as the Apostle Paul said about our Lord, "holy, harmless, undefiled, and separated from sinners, and having become higher than the heavens".

The justice of God is death for sin. His mercy is forgiveness-removal of our sins in the death of His own Son.

The only way to receive this free gift of righteousness is by trusting in Jesus Christ and His message. To those who do not, they await judgment before the One who tasted death for them. If their name is not found in the Book of Life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death-condemnation of God for transgressing against Him.


God Bless

The innocence of death in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ is portrayed in the OT sacrifices.

I'm a hunter. Have been my entire life. I don't do as much of it now as I have in the past. Men often take the life of the innocent without any thoughts as to the value of such life. We've domesticated animals and made "pets" out of them but there once was a time that the innocence of "pet" was seen in the OT sacrificial offerings. Such is lost to many men today. The loving natural affection seen in the empathy of mankind toward others is an essential aspect of the Atonement and sacrificial offering of Jesus Christ.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. The sin of Eve and Adam wasn't worthy of damnation. Judgement. Yes. Damnation. No.

What is worthy of damnation are those who reject the work of God in Jesus Christ.

Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

The Atonement both establishes the merits of Grace and the damnation of sinful men.

 

[praise_yeshua]

A Merciful God Who Doesn’t Clear the Guilty
On September 15, 2022 By Jarrett Ray Fletcher


Here’s substitution in a nutshell: He takes our sin and the penalty for it. He gives us His righteousness and the reward of it.

That’s the amazing gift of substitution. It is the gift of God’s grace offered to all who have faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:24; 26). Because of Christ and His work, God remains just and can justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

That’s good news!



He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD. — Proverbs

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness — Romans

What an terrible oxymoron.

These will never be anything but a "CONTRAST". You're trying to present them as being COMPLAMENTARY to one another.

Sin isn't worthy of Grace. Sin didn't merit the death of Jesus Christ. Now life, Life Eternal....

That has merit. That has value. A life lived as a servant of Grace is worth living.

There still remains a judgement for the sin that has no forgiveness.

 

[Dizerner]

who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree (1 Pet. 2:24 NKJ)

 

[civic]

PSA advocates do not understand Jesus teaching on the kingdom and the very heart of God which is one of love, compassion, forgiveness etc...

When we study Jesus teachings about the Kingdom of God we discover its not about justice, retribution, retaliation etc........

Matthew 5:38-48
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.
41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Parable of the Lost son- the son did not get what he deserved from the Father but welcomed him back into the family. There was no justice served to the wayward son that returned.

The Parable of the laborers in the vineyard- the ones who came late received the same wages as the ones who worked all day. They received more than they deserved- what is just Matthew 20:4. In both of these we see the Father who is merciful, forgiving not punishing and dishing out justice- what they deserved under the law. By the standards of their day it was an injustice for those who worked a couple of hours being paid the same wages as the ones who worked all day.

Jesus even on the cross suffering more than can be humanly imagined reveals the very heart of God which is not justice, retribution, vengeance, wrath, anger but its LOVE- Father forgive them for they know not what they do. And today He said to the criminal you will be with Me in paradise. We see Gods love, mercy and forgiveness demonstrated not His justice on the cross which coincides with Jesus teachings on the Kingdom.

Jesus on the cross reveals the very heart of God, the heart of Gods Kingdom.

I like Paul can say- the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. 1 Corinthians 1:18-19
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

The calvinists have the cross all wrong and have turned it upside down. PSA is an assault on our Gods nature and character.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree (1 Pet. 2:24 NKJ)

Expand that a little.....

The Incarnation of Christ started the suffering of Jesus Christ. It wasn't just the "tree".....

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

the suffering of Jesus started on the cross.. When he bore our sins on his body.. It did not start at his incarnation. what started then was his keeping the law, which he never broke.

 

[praise_yeshua]

PSA advocates do not understand Jesus teaching on the kingdom and the very heart of God which is one of love, compassion, forgiveness etc...

When we study Jesus teachings about the Kingdom of God we discover its not about justice, retribution, retaliation etc........

Matthew 5:38-48
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.
41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Parable of the Lost son- the son did not get what he deserved from the Father but welcomed him back into the family. There was no justice served to the wayward son that returned.

The Parable of the laborers in the vineyard- the ones who came late received the same wages as the ones who worked all day. They received more than they deserved- what is just Matthew 20:4. In both of these we see the Father who is merciful, forgiving not punishing and dishing out justice- what they deserved under the law. By the standards of their day it was an injustice for those who worked a couple of hours being paid the same wages as the ones who worked all day.

Jesus even on the cross suffering more than can be humanly imagined reveals the very heart of God which is not justice, retribution, vengeance, wrath, anger but its LOVE- Father forgive them for they know not what they do. And today He said to the criminal you will be with Me in paradise. We see Gods love, mercy and forgiveness demonstrated not His justice on the cross which coincides with Jesus teachings on the Kingdom.

Jesus on the cross reveals the very heart of God, the heart of Gods Kingdom.

I like Paul can say- the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. 1 Corinthians 1:18-19
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

The calvinists have the cross all wrong and have turned it upside down. PSA is an assault on our Gods nature and character.

hope this helps !!!

Sin is progressive. Sin can lead to MORE sin.

However, that is not always true. I love the "buts" in the Bible.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[praise_yeshua]

the suffering of Jesus started on the cross.. When he bore our sins on his body.. It did not start at his incarnation. what started then was his keeping the law, which he never broke.

Really......

So the Divine partaking of the weakness of man isn't suffering? What about the literal birth of Jesus Christ? Was that suffering?

I know some of you really want to "hold on" to your "sacred cows"....... but at least try to be "believable" in this. The idea that suffering under sin didn't happen till the cross is absolutely "crazy"......

What about the "Garden"? What about the wounded heart of Christ in sharing the human experience of Christ literally "weeping"..... A heart utterly broken in suffering.

 

[praise_yeshua]

the suffering of Jesus started on the cross.. When he bore our sins on his body.. It did not start at his incarnation. what started then was his keeping the law, which he never broke.

The law giver doesn't answer to the same requirements. The law of Moses wasn't morally comparable to the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ.

 

[Studyman]

the suffering of Jesus started on the cross.. When he bore our sins on his body.. It did not start at his incarnation. what started then was his keeping the law, which he never broke.

Heb. 5: 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

According to what is actually written in Scriptures, His Suffering "ENDED" on the cross.

2 Cor. 1: 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

Heb. 5: 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

He didn't become obedient after the cross.

Phil. 3: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Col. 1: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1 Pet. 4: 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

NO, the suffering of the Jesus "of the bible" didn't "start on the Cross", it ended there.

 

[Dizerner]

Matthew 5:38-48

cherry picking

 

[Dizerner]

NO, the suffering of the Jesus "of the bible" didn't "start on the Cross", it ended there.

I mean, those aren't' mutually exclusive statements, one can say his suffering both started and ended at the Cross.

Jesus definitely suffered during his human life, but it was at the Cross he suffered what our sins deserved, the Atonement.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Really......

So the Divine partaking of the weakness of man isn't suffering?

as payment for sin? No

What about the literal birth of Jesus Christ? Was that suffering?

Is that payment for my sin? No

I know some of you really want to "hold on" to your "sacred cows"....... but at least try to be "believable" in this. The idea that suffering under sin didn't happen till the cross is absolutely "crazy"......

Yawn

What about the "Garden"? What about the wounded heart of Christ in sharing the human experience of Christ literally "weeping"..... A heart utterly broken in suffering.

What caused Jesus to cry out on the 9th hour?

what happened at that moment?

do you even know what the penalty of sin is?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The law giver doesn't answer to the same requirements. The law of Moses wasn't morally comparable to the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ.

If the law giver is paying for the sin of the law breaker. he is held under the same requirements.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Heb. 5: 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

According to what is actually written in Scriptures, His Suffering "ENDED" on the cross.

2 Cor. 1: 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

Heb. 5: 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

He didn't become obedient after the cross.

Phil. 3: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Col. 1: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1 Pet. 4: 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

NO, the suffering of the Jesus "of the bible" didn't "start on the Cross", it ended there.

Yes.. He cried out (literally screamed) then his suffering ended. and he said "it is finished"

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

.This was something I was given when I was a teenager. It hit my kind of hard. The price of payment of Sin. I believe it was written by RB Thieme Jr of the Beracha church in Texas.

Ps 22, the payment of sin

My God, My God why has thou forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my gowning (ps 22:1)

Jesus Christ uttered these words on the cross. Christ is God; He is also man. He quoted this scripture from his humanity addressing God the father. Christ knew perfectly well why the Father was forsaking him. This was the purpose for which Jesus had been born into the world. The Father was forsaking the humanity of Christ as part of Judging him for the sins of mankind. The sins of mankind were being imputed to Him, and he was taking the punishment due every human being who would ever live. So horrible was this judgment to His sinless humanity that he expressed his agony by repeating again and again from the psalm of David.. The Hebrew word for gowning meant our Lord was screaming in the pain of Devine judgment

You must realize just why Jesus Christ was screaming, and you must have some picture of what happened to our Lord prior to that time. Jesus had just endured 6 trials. During this time, men had lied about him (no one enjoys being maligned) and yet Jesus kept quiet. He did not answer or fight back. When the court finished taking testimony, they could not draw an indictment because the false witnesses did not agree. Men began to step up and have a little fun at his expense. They took turns slugging, cursing and spitting on him. Jesus Christ was hit dozens and dozens of times. as the bible says, "he was buffeted" which is simply a Greek word for "slugged" (matt 26: 27, mark 14: 65) Is 52" 14 tells us that he was so badly beaten that the features of his face were completely destroyed, and yet he stood up and took it all and lived.

In between all the punching, other men came up and said," so you are a prophet huh? then prophesy who hit you!" Boom! they slapped him, they hit him (matt 26: 28) At one point during these trials, they stripped him to the waist, His hands tied above his head, and then he was scourged (literally "skinned with a whip"). The romans used a "mastix" a very brutal type of whip, to which they attached sharp bits of bone, metal and splinters, anything that would cut! Then the strongest man in the battalion would beat the victim.

Usually by this time any member of the human race would have been reduced to screaming incoherent hysterias, "like a sheep that is silent before his shearers, so he did not open his mouth" (Is 53 7b cf acts 8: 32) He never cried out to anyone, he did not raise his voice in to scream in pain. Then after the beating was over, as was Roman custom, they rubbed salt into what was left of the raw back to cauterize the wound. They mocked him, they scourged him, they took him to the cross.

As He hung on the cross, it was excruciatingly painful. His bones pulled apart from the weight of his body, slowly, miserably. the torture was unbelievable! Yet not once did he cry out-

Not until midday, when the sun was overhead. Suddenly the hill was blotted out in darkness. Then, in that darkness, something happened that made Jesus scream. All of the punching, slapping, lying, maligning torture and pain had not caused him to cry out, yet now, something so terrible made him scream. In a moment of time, your sin, my sin and the past present and future sins of the whole world were poured out on him. It was then that in his greatest agony he screamed. God the father turned his back on him. Why, Because thou art holy (ps 22:3)

Holiness is a combination of righteousness and justice. In absolute righteousness God the father directed his perfect justice against Christ imputing all sin to him and judging him as the substitute for mankind. In that moment of time, "he who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him (2 cor 2: 51)