There was no regeneration recorded anywhere in the OT. Not even one occurence. All OT references to regeneration are futuristic. Even the Disciples were regenerated only at Pentecost. Nowhere else. The same goes for all OT Saints, as I mentioned earlier. They had to wait, in Hades, for the Cross and Pentecost to occur. I see no hypocrisy here.
Justice "served" in the Atonement?
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
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civic
Well-known member
Correct even Jesus taught and told them to tarry until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be with them and IN THEM. Not before Pentecost. It was at that time when they would be transformed inwardly by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them and through them. As Jesus told them it is better for you that I go away and send the Helper/Comforter who would lead them and guide them into all truth and bring to them remembrance of everything he had taught them. Until Pentecost they were still in hiding and fearful, carnal and in the flesh, not in the Spirit.
The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel. They did not believe it until they physically saw Jesus Resurrected from the dead.
Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?
Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.
Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time
Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.” 34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.
John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”
Jesus promised the disciples He would bring to their remembrance when Pentecost came and the Holy Spirit would be in them and guide them into all truth.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
John 16:7
"It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you."
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I'm not trying to be argumentative. Please don't take it that way. I lost a life long friend over this topic a few years ago. We have discussed the Scriptures with one another for so long. I would sit and listen to him for hours at a time. He was somewhat a mentor to me. I don't want to offend anyone over this topic. However, I do believe you see the Scriptures differently if you accept what I'm saying. Up to you.
1. Regeneration is not a complete removal of sin. It is not removal of the flesh. Nor is it the removal from being around sin. It is a new "birth".
Abraham was circumcised in heart. Which is the new birth. Circumcision was conducted for Hebrew boy on the 8th day. A sign of a "new creation/creature". This why Paul appeals to the circumcision of the heart.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
2. Example of the Eternal abiding Spirit with those who have experienced the new birth.
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
David had most certainly known sin BEFORE Psalm 139. He had experienced the unwavering presence of God with him.
Jeremiah couldn't live without it.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Psa 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
3. The misunderstanding of the "gift of the Holy Spirit".
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
This not because the Spirit of God had not be gifted in the new birth before this time. It was because the Spirit of God was with Christ from His baptism forward.
Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
4. The disciples were simply "clean" through the words of Christ. THEY...... had not yet received the Spirit of God. This is not an indication that no one ("up that time in history") did not receive the abiding Spirit of God in the new birth.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
There is much more but I'm stop there. Tell me where I'm wrong. I'll listen...
civic
Well-known member
Good topic of discussion and it’s to bad a friend was lost over it I’m sorry to hear that brother. We may differ on it somewhat but not at the expense of our friendship.I'm not trying to be argumentative. Please don't take it that way. I lost a life long friend over this topic a few years ago. We have discussed the Scriptures with one another for so long. I would sit and listen to him for hours at a time. He was somewhat a mentor to me. I don't want to offend anyone over this topic. However, I do believe you see the Scriptures differently if you accept what I'm saying. Up to you.
1. Regeneration is not a complete removal of sin. It is not removal of the flesh. Nor is it the removal from being around sin. It is a new "birth".
Abraham was circumcised in heart. Which is the new birth. Circumcision was conducted for Hebrew boy on the 8th day. A sign of a "new creation/creature". This why Paul appeals to the circumcision of the heart.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
2. Example of the Eternal abiding Spirit with those who have experienced the new birth.
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
David had most certainly known sin BEFORE Psalm 139. He had experienced the unwavering presence of God with him.
Jeremiah couldn't live without it.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Psa 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
3. The misunderstanding of the "gift of the Holy Spirit".
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
This not because the Spirit of God had not be gifted in the new birth before this time. It was because the Spirit of God was with Christ from His baptism forward.
Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
4. The disciples were simply "clean" through the words of Christ. THEY...... had not yet received the Spirit of God. This is not an indication that no one ("up that time in history") did not receive the abiding Spirit of God in the new birth.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
There is much more but I'm stop there. Tell me where I'm wrong. I'll listen...
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Good topic of discussion and it’s to bad a friend was lost over it I’m sorry to hear that brother. We may differ on it somewhat but not at the expense of our friendship.
Absolutely. We don't have to agree to love one another. The same is true of God. If God only loved us when we were right.....
Well. I know you know how often that is.....
civic
Well-known member
Also 1 Peter 1:11 is hard to ignore since it not only proclaims the Deity and or existence of Christ but His Spirit in those prophets.
The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets, telling in advance about the sufferings of Christ and about the glory that would follow those sufferings.
The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets, telling in advance about the sufferings of Christ and about the glory that would follow those sufferings.
I'm so sorry about your friend. My skin is pretty thick so we can discuss anything you want. I've been called everything derogatory under the sun by Calvinists and I'm still on speaking terms with them - not that I'm expecting anything derogatory like that between us.
I agree. It is the Cross that removes sin. Sin must first be removed by repentance and faith before we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
I agree. OT circumcision is symbolic of the new heart that believers receive in the NT.
I agree but there is a difference as to how the Holy Spirit was with believers before Pentecost as opposed to being in believers after Pentecost. Why the difference? The Cross. The Cross had to first eliminate the sin barrier between man and God before regeneration could occur.
(John 14:17) the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.
Although the Holy Spirit was gifted unto Christ at his Baptism that does not automatically mean that the Holy Spirit was already gifted to believers. That's because there was no sin barrier between Christ and God nor could there be whereas there was one between man and God.
Individual sins are forgivable but man was still under the curse of death. Death needed a different solution and God devised one where the Word of God would descend into the very heart of Hades and cripple it by the sheer fact that He is God. Death naively swallowed the Word who in turn crushed it, liberating those under within its clutches.
Please keep going. This is interesting.There is much more but I'm stop there. Tell me where I'm wrong. I'll listen...
I agree we are justified by His blood (death).
"but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." (Rom 5:8-9,ESV)
"Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures"
Sin=death.
"For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ." (2Co 5:21,NLT)
There is no doubt that God in the willing sacrificial death of His Son for our sins.
What did not ha
I have no issues being justified by the blood-death of our Lord for our sins. I embrace it!
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
The Apostle Paul explains that God demonstrates His righteousness by sending His own Son to die for our sins, that He would be just and the justifier of those who believe in Jesus our Lord.
Rom 3:24-26 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
We are justified by our faith upon believing our Lord’s death was for our sins, that we are not justified by our own good works.
God settled the score of our sins in the death of His Son. This does not mean that God poured out wrath upon him, for that did not happen.
God sent his son into this world to be a sin offering explicitly for our sins, so that He would prove to be just for justifying anyone who believes in Him. Otherwise, one must stand before our Lord and be judged for what they have done, instead of believing what He has done for them.
God Bless
Is that because the unjust, sinner, unholy and unrighteous should never be penalised? I guess in your world no-one has to pay the price for that.
Are you sure there were no sacrifices? I wonder how the Lord covered Adam and Eve with animal skins? And to what do you think those sacrifices under the Law were pointing?
The only reason we have a Cross is because God is holy and loving. He would have preferred obedience, Adam didn't give Him that. So, He used Adam's disobedience to show us what real obedience looks like and what it can achieve in Christ.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Notice how Jesus tells them that "He dwells with you" in the Person of Jesus Christ. Then the Spirit shall be "in" them. It was a very unique moment for this world when the Son of God was Incarnate among them. When Christ began to deliver His message to humanity. He was the focus alone. He was the "face" of all Divinity. In Him all fullness shall dwell.
To elaborate,
I'm saying that the new birth has existed from the beginning. That God planned to establish Eternal life before Adam was first formed. That Adam did not have Eternal life when he was crafted. That when God said "Let us make man in our own image and after our own likeness", Adam was just the beginning. He wasn't the target. The new creation was. As such, the new birth has been from the beginning for all the faithful of all ages. The "new birth" has never been any different now than it was then.
To be clear, I am not saying that things haven't changed. They have. In big ways....
I need to go for now. I will add to this later. Thank you!
The law wasn't given to make things right (justice). It was given to show how awful sin is. It looks harsh when requiring the death penalty but that is because even the smallest sin, if left unchecked, can bring down nations, families, individuals. Bracketed words in the below quote are mine for reference only.
Romans 7:13
Has then what is good (referencing the Law) become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
Knowing the Law can never make one right is basic Christian understanding.
Then why was Jesus surprised that Nicodemus, a teacher of the Law, didn't know you had to be regenerated to understand spiritual matters?
Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables? He used natural topics to explain spiritual truths because only the regenerate would comprehend.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
It isn't just the Holy Spirit's ministry we need, we also need a human spirit. It is what gives us the capacity to comprehend spiritual matters just as our soul gives us the capacity for personhood and our body gives us the capacity to be alive in this physical world.
"He" is the Holy Spirit. He dwells with them and will be in them. Two very different ways that the Holy Spirit relates with us - the first one being before Pentecost and the second after Pentecost.
Adam lost his original state at the Fall. The Incarnation, Cross, Resurrection, and Pentecost recovers that state, fully in the future when we're resurrected.
See you later.
Then why didn't Jesus have Nicodemus become regenerated right then and there, or even set future date or anything? Could it be because of the Cross? Maybe the Cross had to first remove the sin barrier between us and God. How can someone be regenerated and yet still be dead in his sins?
Who said Nicodemus wasn't born again? Because he didn't understand the doctrine? There were a lot of things the disciples didn't understand but they recognised the Messiah. Did you understand what the doctrine meant the day you were born again? If someone is regenerated they are alive so not dead in their sins. How on earth could the prophets receive the word of God if they were spiritually dead? It would have been nonsense to them. The natural man is the unregenerate and cannot understand spiritual matters. It's why the parables went right over the heads of the Pharisees. They had no human spirit to translate from the natural to the spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus did since old Nico was clueless about the new birth.
The onus is on you to prove that he was regenerated. The entire OT does not have even one occurence of regeneration. The sooner you face that truth, the better for you.
Who is the target audience of the verses you quoted? Christians. The Epistle to the Corinthians was directed to Christians. The danger of Christians falling into the natural man is a danger that Paul is warning Christians about.
You seem to be harboring some Calvinist ideas. We all do or did because they are so pervasive. @civic was under that spell for several decades. We can discuss how critically wrong Calvinism is from a Biblical point of view if you're up to it.
Sounds to me like you would have got the same response from Jesus as Nicodemus did.
Everyone who died prior to the Cross went to Sheol. Sheol was divided into two sections. What was the difference that divided them?
Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
All believers are made spiritually alive, that is regeneration. The "living" Christ was referencing there were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who were all physically dead at the time so the life He is talking about is spiritual life.
Really? Paul can't talk about unbelievers to believers?
This passage is a contrast between the spirit of the world and the Spirit of God, worldly wisdom and Godly wisdom, the natural man and the spiritual man. We didn't get the spirit of the world because that references Satan and his way of thinking. We don't deal with human wisdom because that references man when thinking like Satan but all of a sudden you want to to jump over to the natural man being of God but simply "off track". I don't think so mate.
Oh dear, here we go again, someone who wants to tell me what I think. I have never studied Calvin, nor the Church Fathers or any theologian for that matter, I study the scriptures that's all. I ask questions of the scriptures. I compare what people say to the scriptures. I compare my own thinking to the scriptures.
Can we please stop putting people in boxes trying to determine who and what they are and just compare ourselves to the word of God and let the Lord dictate who and what we are?
