Justice "served" in the Atonement?

[The Rogue Tomato]

We are justified by His blood. I don't know why some of you are having such trouble putting 2+2 together. The definition is right there, esp. the archaic.

justified; justifying
Synonyms of justify
transitive verb

1 a: to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable trying to justify his selfish behavior

I shouldn't have to justify myself to them.

justify the ways of God to man—John Milton


b(1): to show to have had a sufficient legal reason
(2): to qualify (oneself) as a surety (see SURETY sense 3) by taking oath to the ownership of sufficient property

2a: to judge, regard, or treat as righteous and worthy of salvation
God justifies with his forgiveness and grace the man who comes to him—Will Herberg

b archaic : to administer justice to
c archaic : ABSOLVE

 

[sawdust]

Yet Christ demonstrated forgivness when the law demanded justice.

He who is without sin cast the first stone. The law required her death. Yet Jesus gave her mercy, grace and forgiveness.

And did it without an atonement, no blood, no justice. Just by His word spoken she was forgiven of her sin. And there are numerous other examples given by Jesus in the gospels.

hope this helps !!!

Apart from the debate as to whether that piece of scripture was in the original, were her sins, including the one she was shown forgiveness for, nailed to the Cross or not?

Can any of us know forgiveness if not for the Cross?

The Cross stands at the centre of both time and eternity. If the Cross never happened, we are all doomed no matter how loving and merciful God is.

 

[civic]

Apart from the debate as to whether that piece of scripture was in the original, were her sins, including the one she was shown forgiveness for, nailed to the Cross or not?

Can any of us know forgiveness if not for the Cross?

The Cross stands at the centre of both time and eternity. If the Cross never happened, we are all doomed no matter how loving and merciful God is.

Jesus forgave many people without the cross because as God He can forgive sin. And the religious Pharisees hated Him for the very act of forgiveness of sins apart from their laws, fulrs, regulations etc….. they like many here scream and shout for justice to be served and must be served, demanding God cannot just forgive anyone apart from their rules, laws.

 

[civic]

Biblical Principles

Genesis 18:25
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Exodus 23:7
Stay far away from a false accusation. Do not kill the innocent or the just, for I will not acquit the guilty.

Psalm 94:21
They band together against the righteous and condemn the innocent to death.

Proverbs 17:15
Acquitting the guilty and condemning the righteous--both are detestable to the LORD.

Proverbs 18:5
Showing partiality to the wicked is not good, nor is depriving the innocent of justice.


1. God is perfectly just.

2. Since God is perfectly just then He cannot punish an innocent person which is unjust

3. Christ was an innocent person who was Righteous, Holy and Sinless.

4. Therefore, God cannot punish Christ.

5. If God cannot punish Christ, penal substitution is false.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then I can only say I'm sorry you can't see it is justice when God keeps His word. Maybe you don't understand what I mean by "justice done"?

What else is the redemption we have in Christ if not for His death and resurrection?

Love. I'm going to start a thread on love in theology relative to the Atonement.

No need to be sorry. I'm arguing the point. I believe it is an important point. I believe it matters relative to our success. Ultimately, I hold no malice or ill intent toward you. We are all brothers both in Adam and in Christ. There is a reason everything starts with love.

 

[praise_yeshua]

His keeping His word is honesty and integrity

They are conflating "just" and "justice". There is discretion in justice that is being ignored. God is always just. Even when exercising justice.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Biblical Principles

Genesis 18:25
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Exodus 23:7
Stay far away from a false accusation. Do not kill the innocent or the just, for I will not acquit the guilty.

Psalm 94:21
They band together against the righteous and condemn the innocent to death.

Proverbs 17:15
Acquitting the guilty and condemning the righteous--both are detestable to the LORD.

Proverbs 18:5
Showing partiality to the wicked is not good, nor is depriving the innocent of justice.


1. God is perfectly just.

2. Since God is perfectly just then He cannot punish an innocent person which is unjust

3. Christ was an innocent person who was Righteous, Holy and Sinless.

4. Therefore, God cannot punish Christ.

5. If God cannot punish Christ, penal substitution is false.

hope this helps !!!

2 Cor 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1. God is perfectly righteous

2. God's righteousness necessitates punishment against sin

3. Jesus was made sin for us so that God could punish sin in Him

4. The penalty having been paid, Justice has been served

5. Justice having been served, God justifies us in Jesus

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

2 Cor 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1. God is perfectly righteous

2. God's righteousness necessitates punishment against sin

3. Jesus was made sin for us so that God could punish sin in Him

4. The penalty having been paid, Justice has been served

5. Justice having been served, God justifies us in Jesus

hope this helps !!!

You don't really mean "us". You mean "you". Your theology denies what you've stated.

 

[civic]

2 Cor 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1. God is perfectly righteous

2. God's righteousness necessitates punishment against sin

3. Jesus was made sin for us so that God could punish sin in Him

4. The penalty having been paid, Justice has been served

5. Justice having been served, God justifies us in Jesus

hope this helps !!!

Yes He bore our sins on the cross.

You cannot find a single verse from Jesus or the Apostles that say it was justice served on the cross or punishment from God. You have nothing but eisegesis to support your PSA doctrine.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

You don't really mean "us". You mean "you". Your theology denies what you've stated.

Bingo

 

[sawdust]

Jesus forgave many people without the cross because as God He can forgive sin. And the religious Pharisees hated Him for the very act of forgiveness of sins apart from their laws, fulrs, regulations etc….. they like many here scream and shout for justice to be served and must be served, demanding God cannot just forgive anyone apart from their rules, laws.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Cross was always in view even before man was created. Good luck if you want to know forgiveness outside the Cross.

 

[sawdust]

Love. I'm going to start a thread on love in theology relative to the Atonement.

No need to be sorry. I'm arguing the point. I believe it is an important point. I believe it matters relative to our success. Ultimately, I hold no malice or ill intent toward you. We are all brothers both in Adam and in Christ. There is a reason everything starts with love.

But I've never denied God's love in the Cross. You keep saying to me "do I kill my kids when they sin?". I assume you think love should prevent such action, yet it's exactly what the Father sent His Son to do. There is more happening than love at work in the Cross and this is what I have been trying to communicate.

It's been nice chatting but I think we have exhausted our positions.

 

[civic]

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Cross was always in view even before man was created. Good luck if you want to know forgiveness outside the Cross.

Are you KJV only ???????


NASB
All who live on the earth will worship him,everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.


English Standard Version
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

ASV
American Standard Version
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

NET Bible
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

New Revised Standard Version
and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.

hope this helps !!!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yes He bore our sins on the cross.

You cannot find a single verse from Jesus or the Apostles that say it was justice served on the cross or punishment from God. You have nothing but eisegesis to support your PSA doctrine.

hope this helps !!!

Logical fallacy, argument from silence. You don't need a verse saying justice has been served. We are justified by His blood, which is impossible unless justice has been served. The words are right there, but you can't accept them because you're stuck on "God is love".

 

[sawdust]

Are you KJV only ???????


NASB
All who live on the earth will worship him,everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.


English Standard Version
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

ASV
American Standard Version
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

NET Bible
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

New Revised Standard Version
and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.

hope this helps !!!

Not KJV only. I hope you're not trying to argue the Cross had no effect until that point in time when Christ hung there? If the Cross was not in view from the beginning, how did all those names get entered into the book of life?

 

[civic]

Not KJV only. I hope you're not trying to argue the Cross had no effect until that point in time when Christ hung there? If the Cross was not in view from the beginning, how did all those names get entered into the book of life?

No read the translations they don’t mean what you think in Rev 13:8

 

[civic]

God keeping His word is justice. Death on sin is the reality God has declared hence, when Christ took upon Himself our sin in His body, He died.

That is what scripture and God declared was love not justice.

Romans 5:8- God demonstrated His love towards us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.

 

[civic]

Not KJV only. I hope you're not trying to argue the Cross had no effect until that point in time when Christ hung there? If the Cross was not in view from the beginning, how did all those names get entered into the book of life?

The cross had no effect on until His resurrection. No resurrection as Paul declares in 1 Corinthians 15 and you are still dead in your sins and your faith is futile.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you KJV only ???????


NASB
All who live on the earth will worship him,everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.


English Standard Version
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

ASV
American Standard Version
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

NET Bible
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

New Revised Standard Version
and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.

hope this helps !!!

He has Vulgate issues.

 

[synergy]

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

There must be an appeal to "law" to establish "justice". An appeal to the Penal aspects of Atonement require "law". A "legal" framework.

Not only notice that the law could not do bring life as referenced in Romans 8:3.....

That same law that could not bring life.... COULD NOT completely condemn/establish justice for sin.

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This is the proper aspect of dealing with justice in the Atonement.

What say you?

I say I agree and I continue to say that our Salvation is ontological, not forensic. From Christ taking on of human flesh and consecrating it, to the crippling of death and Hades by the Cross and Resurrection, to our adoption as children of God through Pentecost, our Salvation is ontological, not forensic.