Death is the just penalty for sin, thus it is justice! Christ’s death on our behalf demonstrates both the love of God for mankind, and the satisfaction of the moral necessity of sin’s ultimate result. Sin results in death, and the sacrifice for sin must die!
I disagree. It was the Cross that prevented the righteous from being utterly forsaken (instead being sent to Paradise to be held over for judgement) and had God overlook our sin (Acts 17:30) until the Cross could be put in place. It's what allowed him to seek Adam after he sinned or to give His Spirit to the prophets without compromising His integrity. The Lord, always knowing the outcome of the Cross, allowed Him to pursue us and connect with us even though "what has righteousness to do with unrighteousness?" We all should have been utterly forsaken and left to die eternally. The Cross prevented that even before it was planted in the ground, even before we believed.
1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
I heard what you said the first time. I disagreed with your reasoning then and I disagree with your reasoning now. Yes of course it is the Resurrection that gives us life but without the Cross there is no Resurrection for as the scripture says we all would still be dead in our sin. What do you think it means to be "dead in our sin"? It means we would have remained unregenerate. Was Noah, Job, Moses, David, Daniel etc. all unregenerate? If not, what was the basis for their regeneration? Can anyone, past, present or future bypass the Cross unto salvation? The Cross stands as the pivot of history. Everything hangs on the Cross first because sin must be atoned for before we can be reconciled to God. If reconciliation to God through the sacrifice of Jesus did not exist until the first century then what were all the animal sacrifices referencing?
And all that would be for nothing if it were not for Pentecost. That's why Jesus' entire life is an Atonement.
Based on that argument ... if God didn't exist .... ??? We could go on and on.
We are effectually positioned "in Christ" when we believe "in Christ". And being positioned "in Christ" we are then predestined to be conformed to the Image of Christ.Based on that argument ... if God didn't exist .... ??? We could go on and on.
The original statement I disagreed with was "the Cross had no effect until the Resurrection". I hold it had positional effect that in practice allowed final judgement to be postponed, regeneration of believers to occur, the word of God be given to man through the prophets etc.
Please, feel free to not address anything I actually said regarding atonement prior to the first century and start talking about predestination.
We were definitely not positioned "in Christ" at the Atonement. Without faith "in Christ" there is no positioning "in Christ".Please, feel free to not address anything I actually said regarding atonement prior to the first century and start talking about predestination.
And did I say the OT saints were positioned "in Christ"? You do understand what I was originally disagreeing with don't you?
I covered the Cross and "positional effect", the topics you initiated. Do you want to say anything more about those topics?
Only if you think the OT saints were "in Christ". I don't which is why I didn't mention being "in Christ". Yet, the Atonement was for their sin as much as ours and they were reconciled to God prior to the Resurrection as evidenced by the things I mentioned. You hold to the same notion as Civic in that the Cross had no effect before the resurrection which is most likely why you are only thinking of it in terms of afterward. I am speaking of the things that occurred prior to the Resurrection because the Cross was planned. It's one of the first things God told Adam and Eve after the Fall. I fail to see why anyone would think that had no effect on how God would deal with man until the day it actually occurred?
So you're talking about the 3 days between the Cross and the Resurrection, to be precise. Right? That's when Christ harrowed Hades and crippled the strangle hold that Hades had on the OT Saints. Every stage of Christ's salvific work has enormous merit. Each stage is linked to each other in methodical fashion. I wouldn't say that the OT Saints were saved just yet. They also had to receive of the Holy Spirit, just like every believer alive at the time. That was accomplished when Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit at Pentecost after he ascended into Heaven. Their Resurrection awaits them because of Christ's Resurrection.
No I'm talking about the effect the Cross had from the time of the Fall until Christ rose from the dead. Although it was a future promise during this time, I consider it erroneous to say it had no effect. Prophecies were made, the word of God was given to men, the Spirit came upon men at various times, believers were regenerated, judgement on sin was held in abeyance. The Lord initiated a lot of relationships toward a people who are dead in their sin and separated from Him. He had to have a good reason for that without showing Himself to be a hypocrite. The atonement of the Cross is that reason.
The Lord is “a merciful and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in kindness and fidelity, continuing his kindness for a thousand generations, and forgiving wickedness and crime and sin” (Ex 34: 6–7).
