dwight92070
Active Member
He was not begotten before time. He was begotten from the womb of Mary. Also "the Word became flesh", so in a sense divinity did "turn into" flesh.
The creeds are not Scripture. Why does anyone treat them as if they were?
Judaism is very messy.....
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
The creeds are not Scripture. Why does anyone treat them as if they were?
First of all.you are not Jewish. I seriously doubt either one of your parents are Jewish.
Secondly, I am NOT against believing or unbelieving Gentiles. But I am against people like you who pedal misinformation and disinformation about the Scriptures. I'm not a fan of the KJV because of the way it came about and with the anti-Jewish bias. There is a difference between Messianic Gentiles and Christianity. I had a choice as a teenager growing up of being a Christian or a Messianic. I chose Messianic Judaism. My younger brother had the same choice, and he chose to be a Roman Catholic. I noticed in life that when a Jew
leaves Judaism they usually become a Roman Catholic. I watch Larry Kudlow on Fox Busines. He is a Jew and left Judaism and converted to the Roman Catholic faith. I wonder why he didn't chose the evangelical Christian faith? Roman Catholics consider themselves of the Christian faith. Roman Catholics were severely hated and discriminated against in the 1950s and the 1960s in southwest Pa where I grew up.Shalom
dwight92070
Active Member
Shalom also means "peace", but whoever uses it must put their money where their mouth is, and demonstrate a peaceful, kind, and loving heart toward those who are not Jews.
DNA had nothing to do with it. Rather, if they had faith in Jesus, they were heirs to the promise. Esau, Ishmael and the other six sons of Abraham through Ketura all had the DNA of Abraham, but none of them were heirs to the promise - ONLY Isaac and Jacob.
"the Gentiles are fellow heirs (to the promise) and fellow members of the body (of Christ), and fellow partakers of the promise (to Abraham) in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Ephesians 3:6
dwight92070
Active Member
Paul tells me I am a Jew and part of the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) and my parentage doesn't matter. I have been grafted in. Romans 11:17-24First of all.you are not Jewish. I seriously doubt either one of your parents are Jewish.
Secondly, I am NOT against believing or unbelieving Gentiles. But I am against people like you who pedal misinformation and disinformation about the Scriptures. I'm not a fan of the KJV because of the way it came about and with the anti-Jewish bias. There is a difference between Messianic Gentiles and Christianity. I had a choice as a teenager growing up of being a Christian or a Messianic. I chose Messianic Judaism. My younger brother had the same choice, and he chose to be a Roman Catholic. I noticed in life that when a Jew
Shalom
The Roman Catholic church has an awful history of hating and murdering 50,000,000 non-Catholics, including Jews. They, like you, with a minority of exceptions, show little interest in reading and knowing the Bible. Which is why that church is so filled with made-up, false teachings, ceremonies and idolatry.
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Such is a reference to the time of Moses.
Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Luk 20:39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.
Luk 20:40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.
God always of the living.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
There was a family who was obedient to God. The head of that family was Salah. He had a son and named him Eber. This is where you get the word "Hebrew." God called out a man named Abram who was a descendant of Eber. God made covenant with this man and the beginning of the separated, called out, Hebrew race began. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all married in the family. This strengthened this families' genes. The Abraham Covenant was passed down to Abram's seed. Later, in fulfillment of prophecy 70 Hebrew souls became millions who were delivered out of Egypt. Then God made another covenant with this people through Moses. Later, God made another covenant with the twelve tribes of Israel called the New Covenant. This covenant had no mechanism by which God could forgive this people of their sin for without the shedding of blood there is no remission (of sin.) Thus, this covenant was the fulfillment of the Mosaic Covenant by God's own Son for this covenant DID possess a mechanism for forgiveness in the offering of a lamb for the sins of the nation of Israel. God had also promised His Spirit to the people of Israel as prophesied by Joel. When the appropriate time came so did the giving of God's Spirit, which Spirit was required for one's salvation and redemption. Thus, the New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ. And this New Covenant was between God and the House of ISRAEL and the House of JUDAH. There is no one else named or mentioned as being included in the New Covenant God made with the Hebrew people of Abraham.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
God never instructed nor commanded the Jews to love Gentiles. The command to love is found in Leviticus and God instructs and commands Israel to love Israel. ONLY.
If it had nothing to do with anything God would not have included Abraham's seed in his covenant with God, but He did. He identifies Abraham's seed as recipients of the Abraham Covenant.
Show me in Scripture the high priest of Israel leave and go to Gentiles and offer sacrifices for the Gentiles. Where does it say in Scripture the high priest did that and sprinkled the Gentiles with the blood of the sacrificed?
Then show me where Jesus broke the Law and offered Himself as sacrifice for the sins of Gentiles. If Jesus fulfilled the Law as High Priest, then His sacrifice as was under the Law was made to and for the children of Israel for Jesus never died for Gentiles because under the Law the high priest never offered sacrifices for Gentiles.
So, show me the Scripture where the high priest left Israel, went to Gentiles, and offered sacrifices for their sin and sprinkled the people with the blood of the slain.
Go ahead and post where the high priest did this.
Selah
Active Member
@jeremiah1five
Have you not read ….
Genesis 18:17-18 (NKJV) 17 And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 “since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Consider. During these latter days, the scattered House of Israel is probably the target audience for the book of Hebrews—yes, that includes many of us—Christians—all over the earth.
Listen up. Knowing where the so-called 10 lost tribes of the House of Israel are is necessary for maturing in one's understanding of God's Word.
s e l a h
Have you not read ….
Genesis 18:17-18 (NKJV) 17 And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 “since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Consider. During these latter days, the scattered House of Israel is probably the target audience for the book of Hebrews—yes, that includes many of us—Christians—all over the earth.
Listen up. Knowing where the so-called 10 lost tribes of the House of Israel are is necessary for maturing in one's understanding of God's Word.
s e l a h
jeremiah1five
Active Member
I've read it. And I see the other passages that say the same thing elsewhere.
Let's take each passage as written and I will show you a better way.
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:1–3.
Here, God promises Abram to make him a great nation. The word "nation" is defined by Strong as:
nation: [#1471] gôy rarely (shortened) goy, go’-ee; apparently from the same root as [#1465] (gevah) (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; [citation deleted] also (figurative) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts
The citation deleted is written as: "hence a Gentile;"
This is irrelevant for this cite "leads the witness" to define the word a certain way especially since it contradicts a passage in which Abram is identified as "Hebrew" and one born in the family line of Eber (Genesis 11.) So, the word "nation" does not mean "Gentile" here and at the time Abram was alive for God identifies Abram as being from the family of Eber described in Genesis 11. A Hebrew is not Gentile in the way it is defined today as being "Gentile." Hebrews are not "Gentile" or "non-Hebrew." That makes no sense. So, the word is defined merely as "massing" in the sense of [great] number.
Additionally, this passage states God says he [Abram] will be a blessing; however, God does not describe what those blessings are.
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6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Beth-el, and pitched his tent, having Beth-el on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD. Genesis 12:5–8.
As Abram journeys to the Promised Land Abram sees that there are Canaanites in the land. Upon this the LORD says to Abram, "Unto thy seed will I give this land." Hearing this, Abram builds an altar and "called upon the LORD." This is significant because by the time we get to the first century AD these words "call upon the LORD" means something entirely different than what it meant originally in Abram's day - even during Seth's time (Genesis 5.) The term means "Worship." In the New Testament students of the Bible interpret the term to mean that [a] person calls out to the LORD such as when a mother calls out the back door for her son to come inside. Many interpret this term in this way in Acts where it says, "those that call [out] to the Lord shall be saved." The term should be understood in its original form which it means "Worship" and according to Psalm 65:4, David calls upon the Lord and ONLY THOSE who are in relationship with God can do because it is God who allows a person to approach Him and worship God. NO MAN can worship God unless he/she is already in relationship with God.
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4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD.
Genesis 13:4.
As above Abram is already in relationship with God and here he "worships" God after building an altar.
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13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram. Genesis 14:13.
God, who wrote the Scripture identifies Abram as "Hebrew" which means he is a descendant of Eber (Gen. 11.) Therefore, the words in which God says He will make Abram a great nation means in relation to being great in number (descendants) or [Strong} "massing." It is impossible for it to mean "Gentile" at this time in Abram's day for God identifies Abram as Hebrew and Hebrew does not mean "Gentile" at this time in the narrative and historically.
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3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Genesis 15:3–5.
God tells Abram that his heir will be someone born of Abram's body/seed. Besides this, God tells Abram that through this seed Abram's descendants will be great in number such as is great in number of stars that are in the heavens. He means innumerable.
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12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. Genesis 15:11–15.
Here, God prophesy's that Abram's seed shall go live in a nation and in a land that is not his, not the land Promised by God. God also tells Abram that when his seed do this that the host nation - whom we know now as Egypt - will afflict them 400 years. Afterwards, God says He will judge that nation ("massing") and as a result Abram's seed will leave that nation with great substance. God also tells Abram he will live a long life and die in peace.
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18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. Genesis 15:18–21.
God lays out the boundaries of the land He Promises Abram.
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3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: Genesis 16:3–4.
Sarai gives Abram her servant and Abram gets her pregnant. This is Sarai's and Abram's attempt to self-fulfill the prophecy of an heir God promised to Abram earlier. This act actually does fulfill the promise that through Abram many "nations" ("massing's") of people will be born to him through this son born to Abram and Hagar. This child named "Ishmael" will be the father of twelve sons who in the process of time give birth to Ishmael and become great in number also interpreted as "nations" (massing.)
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6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
14 Wherefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.
15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son’s name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.
Genesis 16:6–15.
"All the families of the earth" begin to take shape in Ishmael as his seed begin to be born which in time will become "great nations" of people born to Ishmael. Verse six describes this thing to come.
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1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Genesis 17:1–2.
God makes a covenant between Himself, Abram, and Abram's seed. God tells Abram He will multiply his seed exceedingly. "Nations" here still refer to great in number (massing.)
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:4.
Again, God repeats His promise of covenant with Abram and with Abram's seed (through Ishmael, Isaac - yet to be born - and later after Sarah dies Abram remarries and has more children with the new wife. The promise that "all HIS families born in the earth shall be blessed," or "great in number" is soon to take place. Abram can only be a father of many Hebrews which is termed "nations" (massing's.) It is impossible for the word "nations" to mean Gentile because it is impossible for two Hebrew parents to give birth to a non-Hebrew child.
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5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Genesis 17:5–10.
The Hebrew covenant begins to take shape. God promises Abraham will be exceeding fruitful and that kings and nations shall come OUT OF THEE. God commands that every man child among Abraham shall be circumcised. This does not mean anyone circumcised are in covenant with God but ONLY Abraham and Abraham's seed. The birth of Isaac is to be heir of Abraham after he dies and is buried, and heir of the promises God gave to Abram. This is a covenant of DNA. Only those who are a descendant of Abram are identified by God as being "in covenant" with God.
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13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Genesis 17:13.
God again identifies that only descendants born of Abraham (in your flesh) are in covenant and heirs to Abraham.
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15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. Genesis 17:15–16.
Only those children and descendants born OF HER are identified as "nations/massing's" of people that share her and Abraham's DNA are in covenant with God. Notice that "nations" (massing's) and "kings" shall be born OF HER are the people that are in covenant with God and through Abraham and Sarah it is their "families of the earth" that are identified by God as being in covenant with God and heirs of the promises.
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19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Genesis 17:19–21.
God declares that the covenant He made with Abraham will also include a covenant between God and Isaac and through Isaac God will multiply his seed exceedingly and this covenant will be everlasting. Ishmael, who is seed of Abraham through Hagar, will become a people so great they will be innumerable just as promised by God that Abraham's descendants/seed are as innumerable as the stars in the heavens. Ishmael will birth twelve princes, and God will make him a great nation. However, the descendants of Ishmael will be mixed race but still be descendants of Abraham by birth since Ishmael is a son of Abraham. Add Esau, and many nations and "families of the earth" is established by God. They are ALL Abraham's seeds. The "nations" and "kings" that are born to Abraham through Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael's twelve sons, Jacob's twelve sons, Esau's children and descendants, and other children born to Abraham with his new wife after Sarah dies are slated to become great nations of people and all related to Abraham as God said in which they are all his seed through many fathers yet to be born. While all these people are the blessed because of being Abraham's seed, God declares that His covenant will be established with Isaac and with Isaac's seed. They are ALL the seed of Abraham through many, many, and innumerable births of and through Abraham.
The everlasting covenant is with Abraham and Abraham's seed through Isaac. But everyone who is of Abraham's seed will also be blessed by virtue of the covenant God makes with Abram the Hebrew and with Abram's Hebrew seed.
The above is rightly divided.
dwight92070
Active Member
Notice verse 20 in the above passage - 1 Cor. 9:20 Paul said "... though not being myself under the Law"
Here Paul says the he is NOT UNDER THE LAW and in 1 Cor 11:1, he says "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." So Paul imitates Christ and he is NOT UNDER THE LAW, so it is apparent that Christ was also NOT UNDER THE LAW.
Christ was born under the Law, but apparently He did NOT LIVE UNDER THE LAW. Which only makes sense, because He was ABOVE THE LAW - THE LORD OF THE LAW, not just THE LORD OF THE SABBATH. "He who comes from above is ABOVE ALL, ..." John 4:31
Not only that but if He came to redeem those who were held in bondage to the Law (Gal. 4:3), how could He do that if He Himself was in bondage to the Law?
That's like a fireman who is on fire, trying to rescue others in the fire.
Jesus did not need the Law to live His life. Paul said that the "law was not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, ..." Jesus was righteous, the Law was not made for Him.
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dwight92070
Active Member
You're stuck in the Old Covenant. Jesus is the High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron. Remember He said at the last supper, "This is THE NEW COVENANT IN MY BLOOD." Also we see that He died NOT ONLY for the sins of the Jews but for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 That includes Gentiles.
John 3:16 does NOT say, For God so loved Israel that He gave His only begotten Son. Rather He says, For God so loved THE WORLD, which includes Gentiles.
"Therefore be imitators of God ... " Ephesians 5:1 You are commanded to imitate God and love the Gentiles.
dwight92070
Active Member
That could be said for some Jews too.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Jesus was a man born under the Law and lived as a man under the Law the same as everyone else. Jesus not only practiced and obeyed the Law, but He also directed others and instructed them to obey the Law.
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:16–17.
Saul was also a man who lived and obeyed the Law of Moses:
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.
Being called "rabbi" also associated Himself to the Law and possibly the Sanhedrin for Jesus' teachings were similar to the teaching of the Pharisees. They both believed in angels, the resurrection, and eternal life as the passage above in Matthew reveals.
There was a reason for His baptism, to associate Himself as one like the others who were under the Law. If He disobeyed any precept of the Law, then He could not be Savior. Any one, small sin, would have kept Him in the grave but He, Himself said, "I came to fulfill the Law." He was not in bondage to the failings of the Law like everyone else, but was perfect, unblemished, nor was guile found in His mouth.
Wherever you are getting your teaching is boo-boo. It was important that Jesus as Christ live under the Law like anyone else in order to save everyone else who was under the Law. The reason God spoke from heaven, "This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased," was because all His life He obeyed every precept of the Law to that point, and His Substitution as a sinless man under the Law He was able to live eternally under the Law, but took upon Himself the form of a servant to the Law in order to save those who were as sinners and unable themselves to fulfill the Law. Jesus was not lawless. He was as a Jew under the Law of Moses but as the Son of God He was blameless of transgressing any Law despite the religious leaders' accusations that He did not obey the Law, even being accused of violating the Sabbath, which was untrue.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Yes, He did say that "this is the New Covenant in my blood," and also fulfilled the Law as a Jewish man living under the Law. But nowhere in the Law did the high priest ever leave Israel, go to the Gentiles and offer sacrifices to atone for their sins. And as One who fulfilled the Law, He as High Priest, fulfilling the Law did not die to atone for the sins of Gentiles. At every Yom Kippur the high priest would sprinkle the people with the blood of the sacrifice and as High Priest in obedience to the Law His blood was sufficient to atone for the sins of the children of Israel ONLY. Saul points this out in his letter to Jews and Jewish Christians at Galatia:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatian 4:4–5.
If Jesus did anything which was not part of the Mosaic Covenant, then He could not be High Priest nor would His sacrifice save anyone. The New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah states the parties involved and included in this covenant which was later to be proven a covenant of blood:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:31–34.
This coincides with Ezekiel. Take note that there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles named, mentioned, or included in the New Covenant He procured with His very own blood.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:21–28.
These things were accomplished by the lamb of God who fulfilled the Law and bought salvation to the children of Israel. These promises including the giving of God's Spirit - which is necessary for salvation/conversion is promised to Israel.
Speaking to Nicodemus Jesus was referencing the "world" of Jews which is in context to being born again of the Spirit, an experience that can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL as prophesied by Joel. God never commanded the twelve tribes to love Gentiles, if God Himself loved the Gentiles He would not have sent Joshua and the children of Israel to enter Canaan and eradicate everyone of those non-Hebrew Gentiles living in the land God promised Abraham.
Isaiah records God's attitude against Gentiles:
17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.
Nor would God command His people Israel to not love the world, but He did because the world is enemy of God and of the Jewish nation.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:15–16.
It would be hypocritical of God to command His covenant people to "not love the world (Gentiles)" and then turn around and He, Himself, love the world. The world of Gentiles is enemy of God and God warns His people against loving that which God hates. To do that and love the world of Gentiles is treasonous to love God's enemies.
Rockerduck
Active Member
You said "Jesus was a man born under the Law and lived as a man under the Law the same as everyone else. Jesus not only practiced and obeyed the Law, but He also directed others and instructed them to obey the Law."
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was born sinless, unlike any human being who ever lived. There is no comparing Jesus, who was just as much God, as He was a man.
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was born sinless, unlike any human being who ever lived. There is no comparing Jesus, who was just as much God, as He was a man.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
That's true. He was both God and man. And as a man born to the tribe of Judah He lived under the Law and also died under the Law to redeem them who were under the Law: the children of Israel.
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Only One seed. Fix your theology.
Christ was of the linage of Tamar.
Gen 38:24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
Christ is of the linage of a Moabite Ruth.
Deu 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:
Just keep ignoring the obvious.
dwight92070
Active Member
If my teaching is boo - boo, then yours is doo - doo. I see, so while He was in bondage to the Law and a slave to the Law, He redeemed other Jews from the Law?? He broke the Sabbath repeatedly, told a lame man to violate the Sabbath, touched dead bodies, touched lepers, touched coffins, supported His disciples violating the Sabbath by picking heads of grain on that day, worked every day just as His Father did, refused to support the Law's commandment to stone an adulteress. Yet, He did NOT sin because He was not required to keep the Law. He was above the Law. John said He was "above all".
He said He came to fulfill the Law, not keep it - at least not the whole Law. He fulfilled the purpose and the prophecies of the Law. For example, Deuteronomy 18:15-19.
Paul said clearly that he was not under the Law 1 Cor.9:20 So, if Paul imitated Christ - and yet he did not place himself under the Law - then we know that Christ Himself was not under the Law. He was the Lord of the Law. He was OVER the Law.
Shame on you for taking Acts 21:24 out of context. While in Jerusalem, the believing Jews wanted Paul to APPEAR like he was keeping the Law, so as not to offend the Jews. So they planned a little dishonest scheme here. They literally tried to deceive the Jews into thinking Paul was under the Law, but he wasn't. Surprisingly, Paul went along with it.
jeremiah1five said: It was important that Jesus as Christ live under the Law like anyone else in order to save everyone else who was under the Law.
That's sounds very religious, but it is not found anywhere in the Bible. He could save all those under the Law, without being under the Law Himself.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Wrong on all points. And these points you think Jesus broke the Law (and sinned) Jesus explains each point clearly, such as "man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man."
But let's be clear here, if Jesus did sin - which is what you are accusing Him of doing - then those sins, even one sin, would have kept Him in the grave for sin is death. The fact that He resurrected - which is one of the main tenets to Biblical Christianity and fulfillment of the Law - is proof enough that He did not sin where you think He did. That is the gist of it all.
Fulfilling the Law is keeping the Law. If you sign a contract to pay a certain amount each month for a new car, at the end and with the last payment you have fulfilled your obligations under contract and the purpose of those monthly payments was towards full ownership of the vehicle. Get a clue.
If Christ was not under the Law of Moses, then what Law was He under? Roman Law?
Now, on to your erroneous understanding of 1 Corinthians 9:20 let's look at the whole process of thought behind Saul's words rather than take one passage out of context - which many do, so you're in good company with such people that do that and come up with some real outlandish teachings and conclusions. What is Saul's argument on the subject concerning his authority to do what he does as servant and apostle, someone commissioned to do what he does?
1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Corinthians 9:1–27.
But that's not all. The words "moreover" connect chapter 9 to chapter 10:
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. <---- Referring to Gentiles.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils. <---- Gentiles
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth.
25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26 For the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof.
27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof:
29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience?
30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:1–11:1.
Spend some time with this. And if the Lord is willing that He may give you understanding for not all men have faith nor do they serve God but their own bellies. Because with these people...what goes in the mouth goes to the belly and in the end comes out the back showing itself as Boo-Boo.
As I said.
Deception is not of God. The passage in Acts 21:24 is straightforward. Don't twist it. God hates a hypocrite (someone playing a part, acting.)
Yup. It is the religion of the Jews. They were the ones under the Law. Gentiles were not, and as a result Gentiles from the day the Lord spoke to Abraham all were born and died without Christ. Millions and millions of Gentiles born and died without salvation. And then you want to turn around and tell me God loves Gentiles??? Funny.
Gentiles got nothing coming to them of the Lord. Nada.
God can save anyone He wants. For some He does it under the (written) Law or He saves some merely by Command. It's as Saul said:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 7:7–25.
There were some who were saved while under the Law, and some saved merely by Commandment, such as Adam and Eve, Seth, Noah, and others. But as a matter of fact, Noah was alive when God made covenant with Abram. Noah was not in that covenant, he was under Command and He obeyed. And that's why He was the only one out of eight that WAS saved. His sons didn't find grace in the eyes of the Lord. His wife did not find grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah did. He was the only one who received eternal life when the flood came.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Genesis 6:9.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Genesis 6:8.
Not his wife, not his sons, not his sons' wives, none.
only Noah.
