The fake OJB (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
JoshebB
Active member
Then let's try to make this an opportunity to build some trust, find agreement, unity, and maturity ala Ephesians 4:11-16, and avoid those things that undermine those objectives.
Okay. What, specifically, is it you think affects the majority of Messianic Judaism (or Messianic Jews, if this is about people)?
Jay
Member
I only use Elizabethan English when I'm speaking in Tounges or rebuking someone. I had to rebuke someone one time:
Thou thinkest Thou art a humdinger, but Thou are not a humdinger Thou art a dinger.
That straitened them right up.
David Koberstein
Active member
Elizabethan English is one reason why I don't use the KJV. It strips the Jewishness from the Gospel.I only use Elizabethan English when I'm speaking in Tounges or rebuking someone. I had to rebuke someone one time:
Thou thinkest Thou art a humdinger, but Thou are not a humdinger Thou art a dinger.
That straitened them right up.
Shalom
I have asked a question of many on this forum, and others, regarding the definition of "Judaism". I understand that there is a religious sect called "Messianic Judaism" and have had discussions in length about the philosophies they have adopted and are promoting. But no one wants to answer my question concerning the definition they have, when using the word Judaism.
In the bible, there were men who "Yielded themselves" unto God, and their body "as instruments of righteousness unto God". Noah, Abraham, Caleb, David, these men were called "men of Faith" in Hebrews 11. Zacharias, Simeon and Anna were all believers of Moses and the Prophets, and the Prophesies concerning the Messiah given them by the mouths of the Prophets of God, as it is written.
Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
And I would say because of their faithfulness to God, this was written; (Acts 5:32)
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for "he hath visited and redeemed his people", 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake "by the mouth of his holy prophets", which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham. (You can read the same things about Simeon and Anna in Chapter 2.)
Clearly Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, and the Wise men, not only believed in the Prophesied Messiah, but had Faith in Him before HE was even born, and knew Him before HE was even born.
Whereas the religious sect of the Pharisees, that Paul called "The Jews religion" in Galatians, (That he used to be a member of), which was the Mainstream religious sect of that time, persecuted the Church of God that Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, Rehab, Shadrack, Daniel, etc., partook of, and didn't obey the Commandments and ordinances of God at all, but taught for doctrines the commandments of Men. As Jesus said, they "Full well rejected" the Commandments of God that they might live by their own traditions. Jesus said they didn't believe Moses, and that Moses gave them God's Law, but they didn't keep it. I can give you the quotes, if you would like to see them, but from your posts I have read, I'm sure you know that of which I speak.
Jesus said that if they had believed Moses, like Zacharias, David, Shadrack, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men did, they would have believed Jesus.
So my question, that I have asked many times on this forum, is "What is Judaism"? Is it the way of life that Abraham, David, Shadrack, Zacharias, Simeon etc., all lived by? All men who lived by Paul's teaching:
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."
And wasn't this the perfect representation of Jesus' Life, who never let sin therefore reign in His mortal body, that he should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yielded He His members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yielded Himself unto God, and His mind, body and soul, members as instruments of righteousness unto God? Is this Judaism?
Or is Judaism the religious philosophies and traditions of men, promoted by theologians like Gamaliel, and the Pharisees. Philosophies which became the Talmud?
I cannot get anyone from Mainstream Christianity to answer this simple, and relevant question. Was Jesus a Judaizer? Or were the religious sect/business of the Pharisees the Judaizer?
I hope you might show the kindness and simple courtesy of answering a question asked of you.
David Koberstein
Active member
Your probably asking the wrong person. I am a Messianic Jew 
and can answer your questions.
Shabbat Shalom
and can answer your questions. Shabbat Shalom
MTMattie
Well-known member
I don't use it unless necessary either for other reasons .
David Koberstein
Active member
There is no fake "Messianic Jews" only fake "Christians" that practice heresy and false narratives. Messianic Jews
are under both covenants. The Mosaic Covenant is eternal.Shabbat Shalom
Jay
Member
"straighteneth"
Just saying.
English to Shakespearean Translator
Shakespearean Translator - Translate your English into shakespeare.
shakespearean-translator.com
JoshebB
Active member
The question has to be qualified further and most of the adjunct inquiries asked in Post #105 are irrelevant to the correct answer because the correct answer is based wholly in whole scripture.
Fundamentally, when scripture is the sole source considered, Judaism and Christianity are synonymous or identical. The religion that God honors is to help widows and orphans, those in need, and not defile oneself with the world (James 1:27). As I mentioned in a previous post the first Christians were sectarian Jews. They were followers of the sect that was known as "The Way," or the way of Jesus bar Joseph, the rabbi from Nazareth. Later they became known as "little christs, or Christians but that moniker gained ground only after the gospel had spread from Jerusalem into the surrounding pagan/Gentile lands.
The problem is that much of the religion Judaism was just plain wrong. Keep in mind that religion did not begin until Moses. Abraham did not practice religious Judaism. Neither did Enoch or Seth. Theological problems arose in Judaism because men misunderstood what God was saying. Judaism, for example, completely misunderstood the priesthood, the Law, the monarchy, the kingdom, the Messiah, and more. Take, for example, the matter of the monarchy. In 1 Samuel 8 the elders of Israel petition God for a king like all the other nations.
1 Samuel 8:4-9
Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations." But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the LORD. The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them. "Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day—in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. "Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall solemnly warn them and tell them of the procedure of the king who will reign over them."
God made it explicitly clear 1) He did NOT want them to have a king like all the other nations and 2) He took their request to be a rejection of God as their king
. Both those conditions are very bad. They are blatant acts of disobedience. The people protested and after going back and forth between Samuel and the elders God lets them have their way. I did not quote the entire passage, so I encourage you to do so, but everything God said would happen did, in fact happen. Every single king, even David and Solomon, took from the people and misused and abused them. Now, theologically speaking, what happened is the monarchy began to take hold in Jewish theology and gain in prominence. Presuppositionally, doctrines built on disobedience are bound to be bad doctrines. Without going into detail or having to survey the entirety of the Old Testament after 1 Samuel 8, by the time Jesus shows up in the first century the Jews have a woefully misguided understanding of the Messiah, his kingship, and the nature of God's kingdom. Much of Jesus' time and effort is spent correcting these misguided viewpoints but few accept the correction, and few understand the newer revelation provided by the Son of God. They ended up killing him because of these failures. There are several episodes like that one throughout the Tanakh (Old Testament). Newer revelation always explains the older revelations. The basic principle is the OT informs the NT and the NT explains the OT. The NT explains what was veiled and hidden in the OT. Therefore, when a New Testament writer explains what an Old Testament text means THAT is what everyone, Jew or Gentile, should understand the Old Testament text meant (even if it was not explained that way back when those words were originally spoken or written). For example, in Acts 2, Pater is preaching under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and he explicitly states what everyone is observing (and some are experiencing) is THE fulfillment of Joel's prophecy in 2:28-29. That's not a doctrinal interpretation on my part (or anyone else's) that is what they Acts 2 text explicitly states. Some Messianic Jews accept and believe Peter's words exactly as written, and some do not. The salient point is that the New Testament tells us what to make of the Old Testament and one of the most important things the New Testament tells us is that Judaism of the first century was rife with errors.
That, in turn, means we Christians (which includes Messianic Jews) should be very cautious and discerning when applying the Old Testament. Judaization (the over-emphasis of Jewish beliefs and practices) is to be avoided. The whole of scripture as explained in New Testament teaching and practices is our guideline. The metric we can use is this:
We should read the Old Testament exactly as the New Testament teachers did. Wherever Jesus and/or the New Testament writers treated the Old Testament literally, then we should do the same. Similarly, wherever they treated the Old Testament figuratively, or allegorically, then we should do the same.
And (most of) the various denominations and sects with Christianity do this with varying degrees of consistency.
That is what defines biblical Judaism, not post-canonical doctrines and practices. Just like Christianity, there are a lot of folks using the word "Judaism" to mean many things, some of them incompatible with others' viewpoints. A modern liberal Jew looks much different than conservative Conservative or Orthodox Jew. The prevailing point of view in traditional Judaism was that of the Sadducees. They did not believe there existed a life after death. It was during the intertestamental period that the sects of the Pharisees and Essenes developed. It was the Pharisees, not the Sadducees that believed in a life after the grave, in a resurrection. They were the minority sect. They were also the correct sect. The Sads got it all wrong (which is probably why scripture reports only Phars getting saved and never a Sad). No-life was bad theology. We definitely do not want to Judaize Christianity to say there is no life on the other side of the grave. From the world's point of view a Jew is someone who does not believe Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. From the Bible's point of view a Jew is someone who DOES believe Jesus is the Messiah. From the Bible's point of view there are no Jews; there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. Neither is their Jew or Gentile in sin. Everyone not in Christ gets tossed into the fiery lake in the end and everyone yelling, "But I'm Jewish!" will be ignored if not covered in the Lamb's blood. Everyone yelling, "I don't believe in hell!" will also be ignored
.These things are not typically understood with a causal reading of scripture. It takes study. Scripture does not always announce important points with blaring foghorns and glaring neon lights. Did you know David killed the husbands of two of his wives? Uriah was the second man, not the first. The first one David killed with his own hands. the account is right there in scripture for everyone to read but the text does not announce the event as criminal. It expects everyone who's read, "Thou shall not commit murder" to understand what just happened. Other things can be understood only by studying the history and culture of the time. The preamble of John's gospel, for example, is probably taken from the Jewish Philosopher Philo, but scripture does not come right out and declare that. Hellenism had become a huge influence throughout the Mediterranean and Near East but that's not stated in scripture, either. "Logos" was a Hellenist concept. John 1 can be understood without knowing about Hellenism, Philo, and what Hellenism taught about logos, but anyone studying those things gains a greater understanding of John's gospel when they do. The same applies when the Jew-turned-Christian Paul quotes Epimenides. It's not necessary to have read Epimenides play to understand the Titus text, but it is possible to read that and think Paul is literally saying all people from Crete are liars (he is not).
Our brother @praise_yeshua is likely to agree with some of the above and disagree with some of the above. He has stated, "Messianic Judaism is made up of Christians that struggle with unbelief in Christianity," and "they struggle with their roots found in unbelief relative to Judaism."
Everyone struggles with these things. Or, perhaps it is more accurate to say those of us who have an interest into the theological and orthodox matters of our faith struggle. My wife does not share my interest in the deeper things of theology at all. Hers, nonetheless, is an exemplary walk with God and I sometimes envy her simplicity..... knowing I am not made that way. Neither James, John, nor Peter were Paul.
1 Corinthians 1:10-14
Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you.....
The seeds of sectarianism existed very early on in the Church. We should not be surprised they exist today. The enemies of Christ often cite the diversity in the body of Christ as a reason not to believe in Jesus, but the body of Christ shares a lot more common ground than it does division. Sometimes the divisions come from the degree to which Judaism is injected into Christianity. Peter struggled a great deal with it, and it caused him to stumble at least twice. James and John appear to have integrated Judaism without angst and the former Pharisee Paul could be considered at the opposite end of the spectrum making sure the errors in Judaism don't unduly influence or adulterate life in Christ.
We are, after all, Christians, not Jews
.Nabal got drunk that night, and Abigail still did not mention her activities to him. “Then in the morning, when Nabal was sober, his wife told him all these things, and his heart failed him and he became like a stone. About ten days later, the Lord struck Nabal and he died” (1 Samuel 25:37–38).
dwight92070
Well-known member
Learning Messianic Judaism? Please explain why this is not deception on your part. Christ did not die to make Jews out of Christians. Paul counted all of his Jewish heritage as dung, compared to knowing Jesus. As I said, many Christians are deceived into thinking they will get closer to God, or understand the Bible better, if they "embrace learning Messianic Judaism". Paul said that unsaved Jews have a veil over their hearts, 2 Cor. 3:15, which is removed in Christ. Why do you want to put that veil back over your heart?
There's nothing inherently godly about Jewish culture that should make us seek it more than any other culture. All cultures have been corrupted through sin, including America. The promise that the Jews would be God's chosen people came with a condition - to keep His commandments, statutes, and judgments. Deut. 7:1-11 Did they? For the most part - NO.
Paul said, "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29 But who did God call? All the Jews? No, only the Jews that obey Him AND the Gentiles that obey Him. Remember, even a Gentile could become a Jew in the old covenant, if they wished to follow God. In Romans 9:23-24, Paul said, "And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles
David Koberstein
Active member
Boy are you delusional with Scripture with a dash of antisemitism. Your New Testament Bible was written by Messianic
Jews. Get over it. A Gentile could not become an ethnic Jew. Shalom
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
All men have a veil over their hearts. That veil is traditions that keep men from God. I believe your preference for only certain sinners is a tradition you learned. Want to debate this issue so all can learn? I can host a video debate.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Like Paul?
Dizerner
Well-known member
Yes, lol, Paul is a great recommendation.
Alive
Member
A man did not write The Bible. Have you thought about:Boy are you delusional with Scripture with a dash of antisemitism. Your New Testament Bible was written by Messianic
Shalom
‘God and the Bible’ because he is its author;
‘Christ and the Bible’ because he is its subject;
‘The Holy Spirit and the Bible’ because he was the means of its inspiration;
‘The Church and the Bible’ because the church is built upon it and is called to guard its treasures and make them known.
