The fake OJB (Orthodox Jewish Bible)

[John Evens]

A man did not write The Bible. Have you thought about:

‘God and the Bible’ because he is its author;
‘Christ and the Bible’ because he is its subject;
‘The Holy Spirit and the Bible’ because he was the means of its inspiration;
‘The Church and the Bible’ because the church is built upon it and is called to guard its treasures and make them known.

It is accurate to say that God wrote the Bible. According to 2 Timothy 3:16, Scripture is “breathed out” by God. Throughout the Bible, it is obvious that God is being quoted: over 400 times in the Bible, we find the words “thus says the Lord”. The Bible refers to itself as the Word of God dozens of times The Bible is said to proceed from the mouth of God

 

[David Koberstein]

A man did not write The Bible. Have you thought about:

‘God and the Bible’ because he is its author;
‘Christ and the Bible’ because he is its subject;
‘The Holy Spirit and the Bible’ because he was the means of its inspiration;
‘The Church and the Bible’ because the church is built upon it and is called to guard its treasures and make them known.

Save your platitudes for someone else.
Jews and Messianic Jews did write both the Tanakh and the B'rit Hadashah. Have you thought about that? There is a reason for that. They are Gods chosen people. I can give you their Hebrew names if you like? The Christian church has failed miserable in guarding anything of value. Edit by Admin
Shalom

 

[JoshebB]

Fact check: David didn't kill Nabal.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Nonetheless, the salient facts remain: Good never wanted Israel to have a king like the other nations and David was not a good king. He, along with all the other kings, did exactly as God stated they would.

1 Samuel 8:10-22
So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who had asked of him a king. He said, "This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots. He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants. He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use them for his work. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants. Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day." Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and they said, "No, but there shall be a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations, that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles." Now after Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the LORD'S hearing. The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to their voice and appoint them a king."


That is exactly what happened, and that act of disobedience adversely influenced Jewish theology. There are several (critical) examples of this in scripture.

 

[Administrator]

Save your platitudes for someone else.
Jews and Messianic Jews did write both the Tanakh and the B'rit Hadashah. Have you thought about that? There is a reason for that. They are Gods chosen people. I can give you their Hebrew names if you like? The Christian church has failed miserable in guarding anything of value. It seems like the Christian Church excells in heresy and controversy.
Shalom

1c. No attacks on another poster's religious beliefs, race, national origin, or gender.

 

[Studyman]

The question has to be qualified further and most of the adjunct inquiries asked in Post #105 are irrelevant to the correct answer because the correct answer is based wholly in whole scripture.

My question is irrelevant to the answer?

OK!

Fundamentally, when scripture is the sole source considered, Judaism and Christianity are synonymous or identical.

That would depend on what definition of Judaism you are using, Yes? If Judaism is striving to "Walk even as Jesus Walked", in the Commandments of God, as John Defines, or as Jesus Himself defines, "Living By Every Word of God", or as Paul teaches, "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them", then that is the same as the first "Christians", or as you say "Identical" as it was defined in the Scriptures.

The Word "Christianity" is only used in the Bible 2 times.

Acts 26: 28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

And this after Paul revealed the Heavenly Vision to him'

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

So Paul's teaching as to what a "Christian" is, in this exchange, aligned perfectly with the Teaching of the Christ Jesus. Repent, turn to God, "do works" or as Jesus said, "Live By" works that show repentance.

The other time it is used is in 1 Peter 4.

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

The word Judaism is not used once in Scriptures. But is used a lot by this world's religious men "who come in Christ's Name". Given all the warning concerning false teachers and deceptions and men who transform themselves into Apostles of Christ, I think the question is perfectly relevant. Especially since I have been called a Judaizer by several men, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, on this very forum.

It seems prudent that I understand what they mean when they us it.

The religion that God honors is to help widows and orphans, those in need, and not defile oneself with the world (James 1:27).

Yes, the Christ Inspired Book of James gives us a lot of helpful instruction.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness "the engrafted word", which is able "to save your souls". 22 But be ye "doers" of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

So James, Paul and Peter all agree with Jesus concerning whose Word's to "Live by", or whose Word's to be "doers" of, Yes?

Deut. 10: 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: 18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. 19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

So, is the man who lives by these Word's a Christian? Or a Judaizer? Or are they, as you stated, "synonymous or identical".

As I mentioned in a previous post the first Christians were sectarian Jews. They were followers of the sect that was known as "The Way," or the way of Jesus bar Joseph, the rabbi from Nazareth.

Gen. 18: 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep "the way of the LORD", to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Jesus Himself said:

John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

There is only ONE "Way of the Lord", Yes? Didn't Abraham also walk in it?

Later they became known as "little christs, or Christians but that moniker gained ground only after the gospel had spread from Jerusalem into the surrounding pagan/Gentile lands.

But Abraham would have also been a "little christ" Yes? Was he not a Gentile, born in Gentile lands, surrounded with Gentile religions? But God blessed him and his sons, and destroyed Sodom. Why?

Gen. 26: 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

These were the "Works" of Abraham, were they not? He wasn't just a hearer of God's Law, but a "Doer". These were also the "Works" of Zacharias, Simeon, Caleb, Anna, Meshak, David and Paul. How can a man say that all these examples didn't "repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance"?

How can a man say that the Spirit of Christ wasn't in all these examples of Faithful men?

The problem is that much of the religion Judaism was just plain wrong.

But my friend, you have still not defined Judaism, and yet you are saying it was wrong? Was it wrong for Zacharias and Elizabeth to repent, and "Yield themselves" to God and become righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless? Or as Paul called it, "Become servants of God's Righteousness"?

Or are you defining "Judaism" as the manmade doctrines, commandments and traditions of man, created and promoted by the mainstream religious sect of that time, the Pharisees? The false gospel Paul called, "The Jews religion" that Transgressed God's commandments so that they could live by their own traditions, and persecuted the "little christs" throughout the Bible?

It can't be both.

Keep in mind that religion did not begin until Moses. Abraham did not practice religious Judaism.

I hope you will step back a little and consider what you are saying here. You have not yet defined Judaism, other to say that it is identical to "Christianity".

If "Judaism" is the rejection of God's Laws, Judgments and Commandments, as a "way of life", replaced by manmade judgments, manmade high days, manmade religious traditions and images of God in the likeness of man, doesn't this perfectly describe the "works" of the religious sect of the Pharisees and rebellious Jews who fell in the Wilderness?

So then if this is the definition you and others use, when you speak of Judaizers, I would agree that Abraham didn't practice religious Judaism.

Neither did Zacharias, Simeon, Caleb, Shadrack, David, Cornelious, Paul, James and certainly not my Lord, the Jesus, "of the Bible" or any of the examples of Faithful men given us by God in the Holy Scriptures.

Neither did Enoch or Seth. Theological problems arose in Judaism because men misunderstood what God was saying. Judaism, for example, completely misunderstood the priesthood, the Law, the monarchy, the kingdom, the Messiah, and more.

Now we are getting somewhere. Thank you so much for this discussion. But I think you are mistaken here. According to Jesus, Paul, and the entire Law and Prophets, it wasn't that this world's religions didn't "Understand" God's instruction, it is because they "Didn't believe" God's instruction. Eve was convinced "Not to believe" God's Word, it wasn't that she didn't understand God's Word. Sodom knew God, but didn't Glorify Him as God. As Paul said, "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Does our God punish men because they don't understand Him? I think you should reconsider this Philosophy.

Ezek. 20: 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. (Like Abraham, Zacharias, Simeon, Jesus, Paul)

21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.

According to God's Inspired word here, it wasn't that these men didn't "understand" the instruction in righteousness that God gave them, it's that they simply didn't believe in this God.

Jesus didn't say of the Pharisees, "You didn't understand Moses", HE said "You didn't believe Moses".

It's not that the religious sects and businesses of this world don't understand the Commandments, Judgments and Statutes of God, it's that they don't believe God concerning them.

So then, a "Judaizer", would be a religious man who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

It would be a man who "Hears the Christ's sayings, call's Him Lord, Lord, but doesn't believe His Sayings enough to actually "DO" them".

It would be a religious people who "draweth nigh unto God with their mouth, and honoureth God with their lips; but their heart is far from God. But in vain they do worship God, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So according to the Scriptures, if this is the definition of "Judaism", then you were right in your first statement. "Judaism and (Modern) Christianity are synonymous or identical".

I believe this is why Jesus said "Be ye not therefore, like unto them", and again, "come out of her", that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

I agree with your reference of men not wanting to "Yield themselves" unto God, and their Bodies as instruments of righteousness unto God. Choosing instead to "Yield themselves" unto the philosophies of men promoted by this world's religious sects and businesses. But it seems important to discern what "Judaism" means, as it pertains to Scriptures first.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then let's try to make this an opportunity to build some trust, find agreement, unity, and maturity ala Ephesians 4:11-16, and avoid those things that undermine those objectives.

Okay. What, specifically, is it you think affects the majority of Messianic Judaism (or Messianic Jews, if this is about people)?

Sounds good....

"Messianic Jews" have contempt of those not like themselves. This contempt has been passed down from generation to generation. Also, this contempt/belief is often confirmed/assisted/driven by false "Christian" doctrines that teach that Jews are a superior ethnicity/race above all others peoples of the earth.

Stephen dealt with the condition of such people in Acts 7. Stephen, a Jew, is giving doing historical review of these people. In just about 60 total words, the crowd went from listening to rushing upon Stephen to murder him.

Act 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered,
Act 7:53 you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”

Those who murdered Stephen included Saul/Paul.

We can go through this sermon Stephen preached and discover the fallen state of the "Jew".

I believe Paul was remember his own condition when he wrote to Rome....

Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

I'm not trying to say anyone is better than anyone else. I am trying to bring Jews down to the level of all men in this world. It doesn't take long to make enemies when you do this.

I can't preach a different Gospel to a Jew than I preach to any other.

 

[JoshebB]

Sounds good....

"Messianic Jews" have contempt of those not like themselves.

Is that a good thing? Does that contempt extend even to non-Messianic Jewish Christians?

 

[JoshebB]

That would depend on what definition of Judaism you are using, Yes?

I've already answered that question. How people outside of scripture define the term or the religion is irrelevant because the only definition we should be using is the one provided in scripture. I can call myself a five-legged horse but that does not mean my claim has any veracity. It cannot have any veracity because a horse, by definition, (normally) has only four legs.

Scripture defines Judaism as I stated, so please do not ask me questions I've already answered.

 

[JoshebB]

But my friend, you have still not defined Judaism.....

Re-read my post because I did define it. I defined it in its whole-scriptural affirmative meaning, and I defined it in the whole-scripture negative meaning. I provided two definitions with plenty of examples, and I did that because scripture defines Judaism both ways. The Judaism of Jesus is not the Judaism of the Sadducees. I believe I also described how the matter of Judaism is something of a red herring because Seth, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not Jews, and they did not practice Judaism. If not, then I can expound on and clarify that for anyone who doesn't already understand it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Is that a good thing? Does that contempt extend even to non-Messianic Jewish Christians?

Why would it ever be a good thing? (in the context of my comments, I don't know why this isn't understood in with what I stated. I'm not advocating that Stephen should have been stoned.)

There are many sects of Judaism. There are varying degrees of unbelief among many of them. I'm dealing with those who claim they look for Messiah. I can deal with others later.

 

[JoshebB]

Why would it ever be a good thing? (in the context of my comments, I don't know why this isn't understood in with what I stated. I'm not advocating that Stephen should have been stoned.)

There are many sects of Judaism. There are varying degrees of unbelief among many of them. I'm dealing with those who claim they look for Messiah. I can deal with others later.

This takes me back to my original inquiry: Are you a Messianic Jew, or worship in a Messianic Jewish congregation?

 

[praise_yeshua]

This takes me back to my original inquiry: Are you a Messianic Jew, or worship in a Messianic Jewish congregation?

I use the term loosely. I don't actually believe there is anything such as a "Jew" today for several reasons.

1. The seed of Abraham ended with the only Eternal Heir of Abraham, Jesus Christ. The seed of Mary. (No. I am not a Catholic but in some ways I'm closer to be Catholic than I am a Protestant.
2. Jew simply meant "Judah" when first used in the OT.
3. Messianic Jews were called Christians. So were Gentiles. So where the children of Ishmael and children of Keturah.

For the sake of argument..... I am not of the tribe of Judah nor do I know that I'm of the seed of Abraham apart from Christ. I'm blessed with faithful Abraham in Jesus Christ.

 

[JoshebB]

I use the term loosely. I don't actually believe there is anything such as a "Jew" today for several reasons.

1. The seed of Abraham ended with the only Eternal Heir of Abraham, Jesus Christ. The seed of Mary. (No. I am not a Catholic but in some ways I'm closer to be Catholic than I am a Protestant.
2. Jew simply meant "Judah" when first used in the OT.
3. Messianic Jews were called Christians. So were Gentiles. So where the children of Ishmael and children of Keturah.

For the sake of argument..... I am not of the tribe of Judah nor do I know that I'm of the seed of Abraham apart from Christ. I'm blessed with faithful Abraham in Jesus Christ.

No more Jews and you're closer to being Catholic than Protestant. I take that to mean you are not an adherent of Messianic Judaism.

If that is correct, then what's the purpose of the op? Is this just a rag on MJism? If not, then what?

3. Messianic Jews were called Christians. So were Gentiles.

LOL! You're going to love this next comment : No, they were Christological preterists . They were Jews who believed all the messianic prophecies are fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth. All Christians are Christological preterists, and the first Christological preterists were Jews (and one goy, a Roman Centurion ).

So where the children of Ishmael and children of Keturah.

Umm.... you're going to have to explain that. I just did a search of Ishmael in my eBible and I can't find a single verse stating Ishmael ever believed in Jesus for his salvation from sin and wrath. The New Testament never mentions him. the same is true for Keturah. Paul's commentary about the descendants of Abraham being the sons of promise through Isaac (the first promised son) necessarily excludes Ishamel and the children of Keturah unless they made professions of faith in Jesus.

Where in scripture were Ishmael and the sons of Keturah called Christians?

 

[praise_yeshua]

No more Jews and you're closer to being Catholic than Protestant. I take that to mean you are not an adherent of Messianic Judaism.

If that is correct, then what's the purpose of the op? Is this just a rag on MJism? If not, then what?

False charges on your part. I explained why. You skipped my explanation to disparage my position. Feel free to deal with the points I listed.

I said in "some ways". Catholic simply means universal. I said nothing about the Roman Catholic church. Think "Greek Orthodox".

LOL! You're going to love this next comment : No, they were Christological preterists . They were Jews who believed all the messianic prophecies are fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth. All Christians are Christological preterists, and the first Christological preterists were Jews (and one goy, a Roman Centurion ).

I don't mind you laughing but I take what I say seriously. Are you mocking me?

I disagree. Paul knew what he would die. Jesus foretold the death of Peter.

Umm.... you're going to have to explain that. I just did a search of Ishmael in my eBible and I can't find a single verse stating Ishmael ever believed in Jesus for his salvation from sin and wrath. The New Testament never mentions him. the same is true for Keturah. Paul's commentary about the descendants of Abraham being the sons of promise through Isaac (the first promised son) necessarily excludes Ishamel and the children of Keturah unless they made professions of faith in Jesus.

Where in scripture were Ishmael and the sons of Keturah called Christians?

Ahhhhh. Gentiles? Are you saying that Gentiles were not saved? The children of Keturah came from the east to visit Christ in nativity. Ishmael's children were part of Nineveh. That is why God sent Jonah to those lowly Gentiles......

Why do you reject the children of Abraham from the blessings of Abraham? I expect this from those who believe they are elected contrary to nature while not allowing God to do the same for everyone.

 

[JoshebB]

False charges on your part. I explained why. You skipped my explanation to disparage my position.

Never happened.

I simply summarized what was posted. The post plainly states, "I don't actually believe there is anything such as a 'Jew' today for several reasons." That means there are no Jews. There is no such thing as a Jew. The reasons why that is believed to be the case is irrelevant and there's absolutely no reason to feel "disparaged," or think false charges" are being made. The post also states, "I am not a Catholic but in some ways I'm closer to be Catholic than I am a Protestant." That can be summarized to say, "closer to being Catholic than Protestant. I never mentioned the word, "Roman Catholicism," and I thoroughly understand the word "catholic" simply means universal. There is, again, no warrant for feeling disparaged or accusing anyone of making "false charges."

Are you mocking me?

Nope, and have no idea why you would read mockery into Post 133. None was intended; none exists therein.

Gentiles? Are you saying that Gentiles were not saved?

Never said any such thing, but it is a fact of scripture and observable reality that many Gentiles are not saved.

The children of Keturah came from the east to visit Christ in nativity. Ishmael's children were part of Nineveh.

Great. Show me the scriptures.

Why do you reject the children of Abraham from the blessings of Abraham?

Never happened.

I expect this from those who believe they are elected contrary to nature while not allowing God to do the same for everyone.

Never happened.

Post #134 insinuates a lot of unfair, derogatory, and unsupported personal content.
It does so when simply posting the scriptures and rationale for the statements about Ishmael and Keturah would have been much more effective and avoided all of the above. I did not accuse you personally of anything untoward. There is no need to get defensive (or adversarial). All that was requested was an explanation for how the children of Ishmael and children of Keturah were called Christians was reached.


How did you arrive at the belief the children of Ishmael and Keturah were called Christins? Where in scripture were Ishmael and the sons of Keturah called Christians? Where in scripture will I find the children of Keturah visiting the infant Jesus? How does their visiting Jesus make the Christians?


Don't feel defensive. Just explain to me in goodwill how you arrived at those positions.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Never happened.

Always happens. We always end up right here where we are now in our conversations. Either I start with aggression or you do your typical "passive aggressive" nonsense relative to "scholarly work"......

I simply summarized what was posted. The post plainly states, "I don't actually believe there is anything such as a 'Jew' today for several reasons." That means there are no Jews. There is no such thing as a Jew. The reasons why that is believed to be the case is irrelevant and there's absolutely no reason to feel "disparaged," or think false charges" are being made. The post also states, "I am not a Catholic but in some ways I'm closer to be Catholic than I am a Protestant." That can be summarized to say, "closer to being Catholic than Protestant. I never mentioned the word, "Roman Catholicism," and I thoroughly understand the word "catholic" simply means universal. There is, again, no warrant for feeling disparaged or accusing anyone of making "false charges."

I mentioned "for the sake of argument". Did you notice that? If I'm going to "converse" with you, then I must accept your reference to a certain degree. That is how YOU work. You insist that others "come to you" in any discussion. That is what you always do.

Nope, and have no idea why you would read mockery into Post 133. None was intended; none exists therein.

You're passive aggressive "lol" means what?

Never said any such thing, but it is a fact of scripture and observable reality that many Gentiles are not saved.

Like many "Jews". The fact you reference Gentiles is telling.

Great. Show me the scriptures.

Never happened.

Never happened.

Show me the "Scripture".... then... "never mind" equals what?

Post #134 insinuates a lot of unfair, derogatory, and unsupported personal content.
It does so when simply posting the scriptures and rationale for the statements about Ishmael and Keturah would have been much more effective and avoided all of the above. I did not accuse you personally of anything untoward. There is no need to get defensive (or adversarial). All that was requested was an explanation for how the children of Ishmael and children of Keturah were called Christians was reached.

I wasn't being adversarial. I just told the truth. If you use "lol", then expect me to be more forceful in my response. I've noticed that passive aggressive people don't notice their own aggression. I do. My aggression is always there. I always start with "forcefulness". There is never a point that I don't. We are polar opposites in this. I believe you are well learned in debate tactics. You've chosen to hide your emotions. I do not. I believe such actions are ungodly, immoral and contrary to a proper conversation. Jesus showed His emotions when He attacked those in the temple cheating others. I've never done this before. However, most everything I say is meaningful to me. This world is full of fake things. You see exactly what I am here. Not any pretense. No fake pious nonsense. We are often enemies in this struggle for the narrative. You may disagree but we are certainly not friends. I don't look for enemies but I do expect them to show up. Anyone that has decided to battle for the hearts and minds of men will find an enemy. I knew how you felt about this subject from the beginning. I know I'm offending plenty of people here with this subject. Good.....

You need to be offended. You prefer "Jews" over Gentiles. You prefer what you think the children of Israel (Jacob) are over the children of Ishmael and Keturah. Abraham loved all his sons.

Jesus Christ has loved ALL those in the image of Adam. Your battle is not with me. You're fighting against God. We all fail. We all sin. We all have issues. I'm not a fake. I'm against this "fake" nonsense that exists among all men....... especially "Christian men" that prefer one race over another. That is offensive to me. As I've said before, I've lost more friends over this subject than I ever care to remember. Decades old friends....

How did you arrive at the belief the children of Ishmael and Keturah were called Christins? Where in scripture were Ishmael and the sons of Keturah called Christians? Where in scripture will I find the children of Keturah visiting the infant Jesus? How does their visiting Jesus make the Christians?


Don't feel defensive. Just explain to me in goodwill how you arrived at those positions.

Impossible. I'm establishing an defense. I believe it is impossible for you not to be defensive.

It is historical fact that the sons of Ishmael moved north. It is historical fact that the children of Keturah went east. We know wise men (wise in the teachings of Abraham) came from the east. We know that the children of Ishmael ended up in the land to the north and became a great nation. This is generally recognized today to be the Arab people but the northern "Arabs" mixed among the Assyrian empire. Think... Nineveh.

Either way, they were obviously mixed among all the other nations like "Jews" themselves. Thusly.... "GENTILES/NATIONS".

The Gospel is indiscriminately preached to all men. We know that someone went to Rome and preached. We know it wasn't anyone among the apostles. To think that any nation on this earth was withheld the Gospel is just ridiculous. The apostles in the Church at Jerusalem neglected Gentiles. They did so for many many years. Paul didn't. Others didn't. The Gospel is for all.

There is only ONE NEW MAN... in Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

What Paul wrote to those in Galatia is true of all mankind.

All the sons of Abraham and their descendants are free in Christ Jesus.