Jesus taught Provisional Atonement

[MTMattie]

Maybe this should be helpful-

What is the Gift of God

Justin Johnson

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” – Ephesians 2:8-9
Praise God for His amazing gift!

… but what is it?

For many people this verse remains wrapped up, unopened, and misunderstood as a result of misidentifying the gift of God.

The Gift of Faith?

The most popular mistake is identifying God’s gift as faith itself. After all, the gift of God is not of works, and no man can boast of it.

“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.” – Romans 3:27
The mistake begins by thinking that faith is a work. If faith is a work we can boast to save ourselves, so, they reason, faith must be a gift of God that it be “not of yourselves”.

From this perspective, the opposite of working for salvation and self boasting, is God’s gift of faith.

The Opposite of Faith

However, the opposite of faith is not works. The opposite of faith is doubt.

Though the doctrine in Mark is not for the church’s participation today, the Lord defines the believer as one that does not doubt.

“…that whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass;…” – Mark 11:23

Belief and faith are the opposite of doubt. How do we know whether to doubt or believe?

Trust God and listen to His words rightly divided, which tell you the truth of the gospel.

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” – Romans 10:17
The Opposite of Works

“…not by works, lest any man should boast.” – Eph 2:9

The opposite of works is not faith; it is grace. Grace is someone doing for you. Working is you doing for yourself. The opposite of working for something is being given something.

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” – Romans 11:6

Is grace the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8? This seems more likely, especially since grace is described in the same epistle as being given from God (Eph 3:7; Eph 4:7).

The Gift of God

So, what is the gift? Paul speaks of it many times. Salvation is the gift of God: justification, sanctification, glory, and eternal life.

That salvation which has been revealed to the apostle Paul to be by grace through faith freely unto all. Paul describes the this gift of salvation in Romans.

“…and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many…” – Romans 5:15
“…much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” – Romans 5:17
“…the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.“ – Romans 6:23
Saved By Grace Through Faith

Grace is the means God used to accomplish salvation; faith is the means through which God gives salvation. Faith is not a work, it comes by hearing the gospel of your salvation (Eph 1:13).

Salvation is not of yourselves, it is of God. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only one that saves.

Salvation is not of works, it is by grace. The Lord Jesus Christ graciously did all the work necessary for your salvation, and offers it to you.

You cannot boast in your salvation, since you didn’t achieve it, work for it, or deserve it. You merely received it and that through faith in Him who died for you (Rom 3:25-26).

How do you know if you have received the gift of God? If the gift is faith, there is no way of knowing if it was from God or a self-deception. If the gift is salvation, you know by faith in the gospel of the grace of God.

When people make the gift faith, works become necessary to identify those with the gift (James 2:18). When people know the gift is salvation, you are identified only by faith in the finished work of Christ.

“Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.” – 2 Cor 9:5

What is the Gift of God

graceambassadors.com

J.

I see it as something different.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” – Ephesians 2:8-9

I read this as saying....

By grace, ( from God) you are saved (by God) through faith ( that you have come to believe "free will" by the hearing of the word of God.)

OR By grace (from God, not of yourselves) you are saved (by God not of yourself) through faith ( that you have come to believe "free will" by the hearing of the word of God.)

Because "we walk by faith, not by sight—"

Or Dick sees Jane run version.
By grace we are saved because of our faith. Therefore we have been saved by God because of our faith.

 

[Johann]

I see it as something different.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” – Ephesians 2:8-9

I read this as saying....

By grace, ( from God) you are saved (by God) through faith ( that you have come to believe "free will" by the hearing of the word of God.)

OR By grace (from God, not of yourselves) you are saved (by God not of yourself) through faith ( that you have come to believe "free will" by the hearing of the word of God.)

Because "we walk by faith, not by sight—"

Or Dick sees Jane run version.
By grace we are saved because of our faith. Therefore we have been saved by God because of our faith.

Dick sees Jane run version?! Lol!

I have no problem with this-


For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in Eph_2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.

And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part.

Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.
For by grace, etc.
This may truly be called exceeding riches of grace, for ye are saved by grace. Grace has the article, the grace of God, in Eph_2:5, Eph_2:7.
And that
Not faith, but the salvation.
Of God
Emphatic. Of God is it the gift.

But allow me to throw a spanner in the wheel--faith. App-150. We are saved by grace, not by faith, which is the channel through (dia) which flows to us the Divine stream of saving grace. Both alike God’s gifts.

Eph 2:8 For by unmerited Chen v'Chesed Hashem you have been delivered from Hashem's Mishpat (Judgment) and granted a share in the Geulah (Redemption), through emunah; and this is not [an ainfal (intuitive idea)] of yourselves, it is a matnat Hashem (gift of G-d);

Thanks Rella.

J.

 

[Johann]

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@MTMattie

Daniel B. Wallace has just under two pages in his Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics devoted to the debate about how to interpret what is the actual "gift" in Ephesians 2:8-9.



I will now introduce the four views of what the gift is in Eph 2:8-9 that Wallace discusses on Pages 334 - 335 in Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics.

1. That grace is the antecedent.
2. That faith is the antecedent.
3. That the concept of a by grace through faith salvation is the antecedent.
4. That kai touto ( translated "and this" in every translation I've read) works with adverbial force without antecedent and means "and especially".

Options 1 & 2 suffer because touto (this) is in the neuter gender while both chariti (grace) and pisteos (faith) are in the feminine. I would include a 5th option that has been told to me by some Pastors as having the same basic problem; that the gift includes both points or "each and everything involved with salvation" is the gift of God.

Some argue, as Wallace notes, that the gender issue isn't a problem because there are some examples in Greek literature where a neuter demonstrative referes back to a noun of a different gender and that touto has been attracted to the gender of doron (gift).

Wallace goes on to explain that this it is almost always the case that this would be done only when the pronoun is caught between two nouns of different gender. He gives Acts 8:10 as an example, and Matt 18:38 as an opposite example. Then he notes that Eph 2:8 is not a like example because doron is no the predicate nom. of touto (this) but of the implied "it" in the following clause. He finishes by saying that it is "doubtful" that either faith or grace are the antecedent of touto (this).

He calls view 3 "more plausible" and this is the view that I have come to and held through using my own limited Greek skills and training. Apparently referencing other (as of yet unknown to me) parts of his Grammar Wallace says "As we have seen, touto regularly takes a conceptual antecedent." He adds a note that mirrors my thoughts on the nature of Faith exactly at the bottom of Page 335. I will let the reader find and be edified by this as they read his book.

Of view 4 Wallace expresses surprise that it has had such a small impact on exegetical literature. He notes that BDF and BAGD assume this force for kai touto in Eph 2:8 without discussion. I'm surprised I have never heard the slightest discussion of this view before.

While I am satisfied with view 3, view 4 finds an excited home in my understanding of Paul's overall argument for Pauline Justification, or Paul's view of the reception of Eternal Salvation. Wallace says that if kai touto (and this) is adverbial then it has the meaning "and at that, and especially" without having any antecedent. It focuses on the verb rather than on any noun. He brings up that this same structure is seen in 3Jn verse 5:

Beloved, you are acting faithfully in whatever you accomplish for the brethren, and especially when they are strangers; (NASB)

Wallace then suggests this translation of Eph 2:8 "for by grace you are saved through faith, and [you are saved] especially not by your own doing; it is the gift of God."

He finally goes on to note that the debate cannot be solved by grammar alone, but that syntactical considerations do tend toward views 3 & 4.

I am truly fascinated by this. What are your thoughts?

Wallace on Ephesians 2:8-9

Daniel B. Wallace has just under two pages in his Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics devoted to the debate about how to interpret what is th...

onmywalk.blogspot.com

J.

 

[Johann]

@MTMattie

Text and Translation
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NA28 Greek text): τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται.

Translation (ESV):
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Key Terms and Grammar
"Grace" (χάριτί, chariti, feminine dative singular)

Refers to the unmerited favor of God in salvation.
Its grammatical case links it to the participle σεσῳσμένοι (saved).

"You have been saved" (ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι, este sesōsmenoi)

Perfect periphrastic construction: emphasizes a completed action with ongoing results.

"Through faith" (διὰ πίστεως, dia pisteōs, feminine genitive singular)

πίστις (faith) is the instrument through which salvation is received.
"This" (τοῦτο, touto, neuter nominative/accusative singular)

Refers to the "gift of God" (τὸ δῶρον, to dōron, neuter nominative/accusative singular).

"Gift" (τὸ δῶρον, to dōron, neuter nominative/accusative singular)

Clearly stated as coming from God and described as not from human works.

Wallace's Insights on τοῦτο ("this")

Wallace, in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, points out that the neuter pronoun τοῦτο does not match the feminine nouns χάρις (grace) or πίστις (faith) in gender. In Greek, pronouns typically agree with their antecedents in gender and number.

Absence of Gender Agreement:
The neuter τοῦτο likely refers not to any one specific noun (e.g., "faith" or "grace") but to the entire preceding concept of salvation by grace through faith. This is a common usage in Koine Greek when summing up an idea or clause.

Key Conclusion from Wallace:

The gift of God (τὸ δῶρον) in this context is not exclusively faith but the whole package of salvation, including grace, faith, and the resulting state of being saved.

Contextual and Theological Considerations

Faith as Instrument: Faith (πίστις) is consistently presented in Scripture as the means by which salvation is received (e.g., Romans 3:28, Galatians 2:16).

Grace as the Cause: Grace (χάρις) is the unmerited cause of salvation, while faith is the response enabled by grace.

Final Answer
From a grammatical perspective, based on Wallace's principles, the feminine noun πίστις (faith) is not directly identified as "the gift" in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Instead, τοῦτο (this) refers to the entirety of the salvation process—grace, faith, and the resulting state of salvation—as the "gift of God." Faith is part of this process, but the focus is on the totality of God's work in salvation, not isolating faith itself as the gift.

You agree?

J.

 

[MTMattie]

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@MTMattie

Daniel B. Wallace has just under two pages in his Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics devoted to the debate about how to interpret what is the actual "gift" in Ephesians 2:8-9.



I will now introduce the four views of what the gift is in Eph 2:8-9 that Wallace discusses on Pages 334 - 335 in Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics.

1. That grace is the antecedent.
2. That faith is the antecedent.
3. That the concept of a by grace through faith salvation is the antecedent.
4. That kai touto ( translated "and this" in every translation I've read) works with adverbial force without antecedent and means "and especially".

Options 1 & 2 suffer because touto (this) is in the neuter gender while both chariti (grace) and pisteos (faith) are in the feminine. I would include a 5th option that has been told to me by some Pastors as having the same basic problem; that the gift includes both points or "each and everything involved with salvation" is the gift of God.

Some argue, as Wallace notes, that the gender issue isn't a problem because there are some examples in Greek literature where a neuter demonstrative referes back to a noun of a different gender and that touto has been attracted to the gender of doron (gift).

Wallace goes on to explain that this it is almost always the case that this would be done only when the pronoun is caught between two nouns of different gender. He gives Acts 8:10 as an example, and Matt 18:38 as an opposite example. Then he notes that Eph 2:8 is not a like example because doron is no the predicate nom. of touto (this) but of the implied "it" in the following clause. He finishes by saying that it is "doubtful" that either faith or grace are the antecedent of touto (this).

He calls view 3 "more plausible" and this is the view that I have come to and held through using my own limited Greek skills and training. Apparently referencing other (as of yet unknown to me) parts of his Grammar Wallace says "As we have seen, touto regularly takes a conceptual antecedent." He adds a note that mirrors my thoughts on the nature of Faith exactly at the bottom of Page 335. I will let the reader find and be edified by this as they read his book.

Of view 4 Wallace expresses surprise that it has had such a small impact on exegetical literature. He notes that BDF and BAGD assume this force for kai touto in Eph 2:8 without discussion. I'm surprised I have never heard the slightest discussion of this view before.

While I am satisfied with view 3, view 4 finds an excited home in my understanding of Paul's overall argument for Pauline Justification, or Paul's view of the reception of Eternal Salvation. Wallace says that if kai touto (and this) is adverbial then it has the meaning "and at that, and especially" without having any antecedent. It focuses on the verb rather than on any noun. He brings up that this same structure is seen in 3Jn verse 5:

Beloved, you are acting faithfully in whatever you accomplish for the brethren, and especially when they are strangers; (NASB)

Wallace then suggests this translation of Eph 2:8 "for by grace you are saved through faith, and [you are saved] especially not by your own doing; it is the gift of God."

He finally goes on to note that the debate cannot be solved by grammar alone, but that syntactical considerations do tend toward views 3 & 4.

I am truly fascinated by this. What are your thoughts?

Wallace on Ephesians 2:8-9

Daniel B. Wallace has just under two pages in his Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics devoted to the debate about how to interpret what is th...

onmywalk.blogspot.com

J.

"that the gift includes both points or "each and everything involved with salvation" is the gift of God". Is a problem for me.

That IS a predestined mindset. And also does remove free will.

The rest is interesting, thank you,.

@MTMattie

Text and Translation
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NA28 Greek text): τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται.

Translation (ESV):
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Key Terms and Grammar
"Grace" (χάριτί, chariti, feminine dative singular)

Refers to the unmerited favor of God in salvation.
Its grammatical case links it to the participle σεσῳσμένοι (saved).

"You have been saved" (ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι, este sesōsmenoi)

Perfect periphrastic construction: emphasizes a completed action with ongoing results.

"Through faith" (διὰ πίστεως, dia pisteōs, feminine genitive singular)

πίστις (faith) is the instrument through which salvation is received.
"This" (τοῦτο, touto, neuter nominative/accusative singular)

Refers to the "gift of God" (τὸ δῶρον, to dōron, neuter nominative/accusative singular).

"Gift" (τὸ δῶρον, to dōron, neuter nominative/accusative singular)

Clearly stated as coming from God and described as not from human works.

Wallace's Insights on τοῦτο ("this")

Wallace, in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, points out that the neuter pronoun τοῦτο does not match the feminine nouns χάρις (grace) or πίστις (faith) in gender. In Greek, pronouns typically agree with their antecedents in gender and number.

Absence of Gender Agreement:
The neuter τοῦτο likely refers not to any one specific noun (e.g., "faith" or "grace") but to the entire preceding concept of salvation by grace through faith. This is a common usage in Koine Greek when summing up an idea or clause.

Key Conclusion from Wallace:

The gift of God (τὸ δῶρον) in this context is not exclusively faith but the whole package of salvation, including grace, faith, and the resulting state of being saved.

Contextual and Theological Considerations

Faith as Instrument: Faith (πίστις) is consistently presented in Scripture as the means by which salvation is received (e.g., Romans 3:28, Galatians 2:16).

Grace as the Cause: Grace (χάρις) is the unmerited cause of salvation, while faith is the response enabled by grace.

Final Answer
From a grammatical perspective, based on Wallace's principles, the feminine noun πίστις (faith) is not directly identified as "the gift" in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Instead, τοῦτο (this) refers to the entirety of the salvation process—grace, faith, and the resulting state of salvation—as the "gift of God." Faith is part of this process, but the focus is on the totality of God's work in salvation, not isolating faith itself as the gift.

You agree?

J.

Kind of.

But not solidly because again... faith cannot be a gift, even including it with grace and salvation.

Yes, they all 3 are together, but faith is strictly, IMO, free will and IMO we come to grace and salvation after exhibiting our faith.

When I read things like "while faith is the response enabled by grace." Which is basically saying you get faith from having received grace....
that tosses free will right out the window.

 

[Johann]

Kind of.

But not solidly because again... faith cannot be a gift, even including it with grace and salvation.

Yes, they all 3 are together, but faith is strictly, IMO, free will and IMO we come to grace and salvation after exhibiting our faith.

When I read things like "while faith is the response enabled by grace." Which is basically saying you get faith from having received grace....
that tosses free will right out the window.

Really, it's not a problem for me-I have nothing to boast in. As Scripture says, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 1:31), and "For what do you have that you did not receive?" (1 Corinthians 4:7).


I’m not concerned with what Calvin, the Provisionists, or even you have to say-I’m focused on what Scripture says.

Thanks.

J.

 

[TomL]

Ephesians 2:8–9 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

The phrase it is not from works shows the gift is salvation

The bible is clear you cannot work your way to salvation

No one can rationally claim faith is a result of works

 

[Presby02]

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Doug

The word in question is grant.

 

[Presby02]

As well as permit, enable or allow

And give. Context decides

 

[Presby02]

Still trying to deceive

Correction to previous post

Salvation is the gift, not saving faith

But when will you learn

Romans 6:23 (LEB) — 23 For the compensation due sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nowhere in the bible is saving faith said to be a gift

your third lie was that

I deny"you are saved by grace"

Was that a yes or a no?

Belief is given to you along with faith.

When will you learn? You started by stating you do not deny faith is a gift but now seem to be regressing.

 

[Johann]

Was that a yes or a no?

Belief is given to you along with faith.

When will you learn? You started by stating you do not deny faith is a gift but now seem to be regressing.

Please give this a listen @Presby02

Most commentaries which reflect on the original language reveal that the demonstrative translated ‘this’ in verse 8 is ‘neuter,’ but the noun for ‘faith’ is ‘feminine’. For Piper’s somewhat idiosyncratic view to stand, these two terms should agree in gender, but clearly they do not. Greek scholar, Dr. Dan Wallace, explains, “On a grammatical level, then, it is doubtful that either ‘faith” or ‘grace’ is the antecedent of [touto].’[3] Instead, Paul is simply stating that salvation as a whole is obtained by a gift of God.

There are even many Calvinistic leaning exegetes who are unbiased enough to admit that the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8-9 does not support the idea that faith is some kind of effectual gift. In his own commentary of this passage, John Calvin said,

“And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.”[4]

So, this is not just a bias against Calvinism, as even John Calvin himself taught that Piper’s view is a “common error.”[5] Piper goes on to say,

“He said to the Philippians, ‘To you it has been given for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake’ (Philippians 1:29). This is why he thanked God and not human resourcefulness for the faith he saw in his churches…”

God does grant us the ability to believe and suffer for His sake. But “granting” or “enabling” faith, or the subsequent suffering that may result, is not the same as “effectually causing it.” Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom. 10:11-14), which is sent (or granted) first to the Jew and then the Gentile (Rom. 1:16). In other words, God is enabling faith by bringing the word of faith (His revelation), which is said to go first to Israel and then to “the high-ways and by-ways…the good and bad alike” (see the wedding banquet parable in Matt. 22). Remember, during the time of Paul, the Jews, generally speaking, had grown calloused to God’s revelation, otherwise they might have seen, heard, understood and turned to God, so the apostles took the message of repentance to the Gentiles, who unlike the Jews, “were willing to listen” (see Acts 28:27-28; John 12:39-41; Romans 9-11).

Is Faith is a Gift?

Yes, in one manner of speaking it is, but that does not mean it is an effectual gift given to a relatively small number of people mysteriously chosen for unknown reasons before the world began. We do not have a problem saying that “faith is a gift” in so far as all good things are ultimately from God. Paul asked his readers, “What do you have that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), which strongly implies that all our abilities, including the ability to make choices, or to trust in God, is given to us by a gracious God.

My next breath is a gift of God, but I am responsible for how I use that gift, right? Likewise, we are “granted” faith or repentance when God brings the means by which we may believe and repent, but we are still responsible for how we use that gift.

So, when the scripture says things like, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18; 20:21) it does not mean “God has effectually caused the Gentiles to repent” but only that God has sent the gospel to the Gentiles so that they too may believe and repent unto new life (John 20:31) and be grafted into the olive tree (Romans 11).

Piper, along with most Calvinists, erroneously assume that for God to receive the maximum glory for giving gifts that He must give them “irresistibly” (in a way that effectually causes the recipients to take and use the gift appropriately). But, since when must a gift be effectually or irresistibly bestowed in order for the giver to get full credit for giving the gift?

If I were to buy laptops for all four of my children and three of them trashed it, or used it inappropriately (while only one of them used it as I intended); am I a less generous or benevolent father? Of course not. My children are responsible for how they used the gift I provided, and that does not impact my benevolence or my character in any way as their loving father who generously provided for their needs.

What would negatively reflect on my character as their father is if you found out I was somehow the “decisive cause” of my children’s inappropriate preferences and choices, which is precisely what Piper teaches in regard to God’s relation to those who rebel against His provisions. In an article titled, “A Beginner’s Guide to ‘Free Will,’” John Piper argues,

…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are.

On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. There are great measures of self-determination, as the Bible often shows, but never is man the ultimate or decisive cause of his preferences and choices. When man’s agency and God’s agency are compared, both are real, but God’s is decisive. Yet — and here’s the mystery that causes so many to stumble — God is always decisive in such a way that man’s agency is real, and his responsibility remains.[6]

I propose that Piper’s view actually downplays God’s glory by presuming effectuality. On the Traditionalist/Provisionist’s view, where God provides the means of salvation for all people, God gets the glory for the gift provided for every person, not just those who use that gift appropriately.

J.

 

[MTMattie]

Really, it's not a problem for me-I have nothing to boast in. As Scripture says, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 1:31), and "For what do you have that you did not receive?" (1 Corinthians 4:7).


I’m not concerned with what Calvin, the Provisionists, or even you have to say-I’m focused on what Scripture says.

Thanks.

J.

Faith is not a gift. It says that no where in the bible.

Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. This is biblical.

You can hear but if you do not accept, there can be no gift involvement


Simplified: Not my words, but biblical.

Scripture does not seem to support the idea that faith is a gift from God. The Bible simply calls upon people to believe.

One example is in Romans 4. Here Paul cites Abraham as one who was declared righteous by God on the basis of faith and not works (4:1-3). In verse five Paul writes, “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness” (emphasis added). The personal faith of the one who does not work but only believes is what results in justification. There is no intimation that this faith is anything other than his own personal faith.

Another example is in John 11. In verses 25-26, Jesus addresses Martha and says, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” In 11:27, Martha responds: by saying, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

In the interplay of the words of Jesus and Martha there is not the slightest hint that her faith is anything but her own conviction concerning the words of Jesus. There is a simple response of “Yes … I believe” to a simple question, “Do you believe this?”

Now... having said this I will add.... It is true that the fact that faith is a personal response on the part of people must be balanced with the fact that God is sovereign. The Bible clearly teaches that God convicts men of their need for salvation.... or more correctly it is the Holy Spirit that does so.


It is true that without this conviction there could be no salvation.

It is also true that this conviction will not necessarily lead anyone to repentance or change. That, as has been demonstrated, biblically, is a personal choice.... and that personal choice IS free will.

If you are bestowed with a gift of faith, after you have beens saved as others on this board claim, it is not your choice. God wants you... all... to come to Him freely

If we did not have the ability to reject God, then neither would we have the ability to truly love Him.

Genuine love and genuine good can only exist in a world where there is an opportunity for genuine rejection and genuine evil.

So, With this in mind, perhaps we might define free will as the ability to choose whatever we want, within the bounds of physical limitations.

One of the better quotes I have read simply states ..."God does not coerce people to reject Him; He simply allows them to do the only thing they want to do (sin), and He allows them to do it with a great deal of variety and creativity. God does not coerce people to accept Him, but He persuades them with tactics that cannot be refused. God is in control, but humans make real choices. Somehow, God’s control and human freedom are perfectly compatible.

You might want to re-read Romans chapter 9 thru chapter 11. Paul hits on God’s control and human choice.

God created the world as He did and gave humans the freedoms they have in order to bring glory to Himself. The glorification of God is the greatest possible good.

 

[Presby02]

Please give this a listen @Presby02

Most commentaries which reflect on the original language reveal that the demonstrative translated ‘this’ in verse 8 is ‘neuter,’ but the noun for ‘faith’ is ‘feminine’. For Piper’s somewhat idiosyncratic view to stand, these two terms should agree in gender, but clearly they do not. Greek scholar, Dr. Dan Wallace, explains, “On a grammatical level, then, it is doubtful that either ‘faith” or ‘grace’ is the antecedent of [touto].’[3] Instead, Paul is simply stating that salvation as a whole is obtained by a gift of God.

There are even many Calvinistic leaning exegetes who are unbiased enough to admit that the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8-9 does not support the idea that faith is some kind of effectual gift. In his own commentary of this passage, John Calvin said,

“And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.”[4]

So, this is not just a bias against Calvinism, as even John Calvin himself taught that Piper’s view is a “common error.”[5] Piper goes on to say,

“He said to the Philippians, ‘To you it has been given for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake’ (Philippians 1:29). This is why he thanked God and not human resourcefulness for the faith he saw in his churches…”

God does grant us the ability to believe and suffer for His sake. But “granting” or “enabling” faith, or the subsequent suffering that may result, is not the same as “effectually causing it.” Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom. 10:11-14), which is sent (or granted) first to the Jew and then the Gentile (Rom. 1:16). In other words, God is enabling faith by bringing the word of faith (His revelation), which is said to go first to Israel and then to “the high-ways and by-ways…the good and bad alike” (see the wedding banquet parable in Matt. 22). Remember, during the time of Paul, the Jews, generally speaking, had grown calloused to God’s revelation, otherwise they might have seen, heard, understood and turned to God, so the apostles took the message of repentance to the Gentiles, who unlike the Jews, “were willing to listen” (see Acts 28:27-28; John 12:39-41; Romans 9-11).

Is Faith is a Gift?

Yes, in one manner of speaking it is, but that does not mean it is an effectual gift given to a relatively small number of people mysteriously chosen for unknown reasons before the world began. We do not have a problem saying that “faith is a gift” in so far as all good things are ultimately from God. Paul asked his readers, “What do you have that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), which strongly implies that all our abilities, including the ability to make choices, or to trust in God, is given to us by a gracious God.

My next breath is a gift of God, but I am responsible for how I use that gift, right? Likewise, we are “granted” faith or repentance when God brings the means by which we may believe and repent, but we are still responsible for how we use that gift.

So, when the scripture says things like, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18; 20:21) it does not mean “God has effectually caused the Gentiles to repent” but only that God has sent the gospel to the Gentiles so that they too may believe and repent unto new life (John 20:31) and be grafted into the olive tree (Romans 11).

Piper, along with most Calvinists, erroneously assume that for God to receive the maximum glory for giving gifts that He must give them “irresistibly” (in a way that effectually causes the recipients to take and use the gift appropriately). But, since when must a gift be effectually or irresistibly bestowed in order for the giver to get full credit for giving the gift?

If I were to buy laptops for all four of my children and three of them trashed it, or used it inappropriately (while only one of them used it as I intended); am I a less generous or benevolent father? Of course not. My children are responsible for how they used the gift I provided, and that does not impact my benevolence or my character in any way as their loving father who generously provided for their needs.

What would negatively reflect on my character as their father is if you found out I was somehow the “decisive cause” of my children’s inappropriate preferences and choices, which is precisely what Piper teaches in regard to God’s relation to those who rebel against His provisions. In an article titled, “A Beginner’s Guide to ‘Free Will,’” John Piper argues,

…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are.

On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. There are great measures of self-determination, as the Bible often shows, but never is man the ultimate or decisive cause of his preferences and choices. When man’s agency and God’s agency are compared, both are real, but God’s is decisive. Yet — and here’s the mystery that causes so many to stumble — God is always decisive in such a way that man’s agency is real, and his responsibility remains.[6]

I propose that Piper’s view actually downplays God’s glory by presuming effectuality. On the Traditionalist/Provisionist’s view, where God provides the means of salvation for all people, God gets the glory for the gift provided for every person, not just those who use that gift appropriately.

J.

No thank you. I don't watch a channel that claims to be at war with beliefs I hold dear.

Faith is a gift as you stated. I agree with you. Faith is given to us along with belief and repentance.

 

[Johann]

Faith is not a gift. It says that no where in the bible.

Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. This is biblical.

You can hear but if you do not accept, there can be no gift involvement


Simplified: Not my words, but biblical.

Scripture does not seem to support the idea that faith is a gift from God. The Bible simply calls upon people to believe.

One example is in Romans 4. Here Paul cites Abraham as one who was declared righteous by God on the basis of faith and not works (4:1-3). In verse five Paul writes, “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness” (emphasis added). The personal faith of the one who does not work but only believes is what results in justification. There is no intimation that this faith is anything other than his own personal faith.

Another example is in John 11. In verses 25-26, Jesus addresses Martha and says, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” In 11:27, Martha responds: by saying, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

In the interplay of the words of Jesus and Martha there is not the slightest hint that her faith is anything but her own conviction concerning the words of Jesus. There is a simple response of “Yes … I believe” to a simple question, “Do you believe this?”

Now... having said this I will add.... It is true that the fact that faith is a personal response on the part of people must be balanced with the fact that God is sovereign. The Bible clearly teaches that God convicts men of their need for salvation.... or more correctly it is the Holy Spirit that does so.


It is true that without this conviction there could be no salvation.

It is also true that this conviction will not necessarily lead anyone to repentance or change. That, as has been demonstrated, biblically, is a personal choice.... and that personal choice IS free will.

If you are bestowed with a gift of faith, after you have beens saved as others on this board claim, it is not your choice. God wants you... all... to come to Him freely

If we did not have the ability to reject God, then neither would we have the ability to truly love Him.

Genuine love and genuine good can only exist in a world where there is an opportunity for genuine rejection and genuine evil.

So, With this in mind, perhaps we might define free will as the ability to choose whatever we want, within the bounds of physical limitations.

One of the better quotes I have read simply states ..."God does not coerce people to reject Him; He simply allows them to do the only thing they want to do (sin), and He allows them to do it with a great deal of variety and creativity. God does not coerce people to accept Him, but He persuades them with tactics that cannot be refused. God is in control, but humans make real choices. Somehow, God’s control and human freedom are perfectly compatible.

You might want to re-read Romans chapter 9 thru chapter 11. Paul hits on God’s control and human choice.

God created the world as He did and gave humans the freedoms they have in order to bring glory to Himself. The glorification of God is the greatest possible good.

I have no problem with your post

Faith is not a gift. It says that no where in the bible.

I have a problem with this-and the ECF's were not Calvinistic @MTMattie

Clement of Rome (c. AD 96)
Quote:
“Let us fix our gaze on the blood of Christ and understand how precious it is to His Father, because it was poured out for our salvation and brought the grace of repentance to the whole world. Let us look at all the generations and see that from generation to generation the Master has given a place of repentance to those who are willing to turn to Him.”
(1 Clement 7:4)

Explanation:
Clement emphasizes that repentance and the ability to turn to God are granted by Him. Though not explicitly using the term “faith as a gift,” Clement links saving faith to God’s initiative and grace.

2. Justin Martyr (c. AD 100–165)
Quote:
“We have been taught that it is only by the power of God that we can truly know Him and be brought to faith in Him. No one can attain this by themselves, but only as it is given to them by the Father.”
(First Apology, 13)

Explanation:
Justin explicitly attributes faith to the power and gift of God. This aligns with John 6:44, where Jesus says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.”

3. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. AD 130–202)
Quote:
“Faith is the beginning of salvation, and this faith is not of ourselves but is the gift of God. For He prepares and opens the hearts of men to understand and believe the truth.”
(Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 14)

Explanation:
Irenaeus explicitly calls faith a gift from God, emphasizing that it is God who enables the heart to respond in belief.

4. Origen (c. AD 185–254)
Quote:
“The ability to believe is itself given by God. For man cannot receive even the smallest thing unless it has been given to him from heaven.”
(Commentary on John, Book 6, Chapter 6)

Explanation:
Origen connects faith directly to divine enablement, citing John 3:27, which emphasizes that everything we receive comes from God, including the ability to believe.

5. Augustine of Hippo (c. AD 354–430)
Quote 1:
“Faith itself is a gift of God. And if it is a gift of God, it does not come from us, but He gives it to us.”
(On the Predestination of the Saints, Chapter 3)

Quote 2:
“It is certain that we believe by a free will, but it is He who makes us willing. Faith is a grace; it is given to no one who is unworthy of it, but to him to whom it is given, it is given without merit on his part.”
(Homilies on John, Tractate 53)

Explanation:
Augustine is perhaps the most explicit of the Church Fathers in affirming that faith is a gift from God. He consistently taught that grace precedes human action and that even our ability to believe is enabled by God.

6. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. AD 313–386)
Quote:
“For a man cannot receive anything, unless it be given him from heaven. It is not through eloquence that you come to faith; it is through the grace of God working in your heart.”
(Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 1, Section 4)

Explanation:
Cyril attributes faith to the grace of God, stating that it is not achieved by human wisdom or effort but granted from heaven.

7. John Chrysostom (c. AD 347–407)
Quote:
“Even faith itself, from the beginning, is the gift of God. It is He who reveals Himself to us, and without this revelation, we could not believe.”
(Homilies on Ephesians, Homily 2)

Explanation:
Chrysostom affirms that faith begins as a gift from God, rooted in His self-revelation. He sees God’s initiative as necessary for belief.

Summary of the Fathers’ Views:

The early Church Fathers consistently taught that faith is not purely a human action but originates from God’s grace. They reflected biblical principles, particularly passages like Ephesians 2:8, John 6:44, and Philippians 1:29.

Their writings emphasize that faith is both a divine gift and a human response, with God always taking the first step in granting the ability to believe.

Emphasis on Free Will
The Early Church Fathers strongly affirmed the role of human free will in responding to God’s grace:

Justin Martyr (c. 100–165):
“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards are given according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it is not by choice that he does good or evil, he is not accountable for his actions.”
(First Apology, Chapter 43)

Irenaeus (c. 130–202):
“Man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created. Man is free in his actions, and he has the power, through his free will, to do right or wrong.”
(Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter 37)

These quotes highlight that the Fathers generally viewed salvation as a cooperative process between God’s grace and human will—a position that would not align with the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace.

2. Grace and Human Cooperation
The Fathers often emphasized synergism (a cooperative effort between divine grace and human will) rather than monergism (salvation being entirely a work of God without human cooperation):

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215):
“To obey or not is in our own power, provided we do not have the excuse of ignorance.”
(Stromata, Book 2, Chapter 4)

John Chrysostom (c. 347–407):
“God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no one.”
(Homilies on John, Homily 33)

This understanding of grace as resistible and cooperative contrasts sharply with Calvinistic teaching.

3. Views on Predestination
The Early Church Fathers believed in predestination but not in the Calvinistic sense of unconditional election. They generally taught that God foreknows who will freely choose to believe and bases His predestination on this foreknowledge:

Origen (c. 185–254):
“The apostle Paul…teaches us that God’s foreknowledge does not constrain the freedom of the will.”
(De Principiis, Book III, Chapter 1)

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 313–386):
“God has foreknowledge, but does not predetermine; He knows what each individual will do but does not force him to act in one way or the other.”
(Catechetical Lectures, Lecture IV)

This conditional understanding of election differs from Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election, which asserts that God's choice is based solely on His will, not on foreseen faith or actions.

4. Salvation as Universal in Scope
The Early Church Fathers often emphasized the universality of Christ’s atonement, rejecting any notion of limited atonement:

Athanasius (c. 296–373):
“He, the Life of all, our Lord and Savior, did not arrange the death of His own body for Himself, but for all of us humankind.”
(On the Incarnation, Chapter 2)

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 313–386):
“He stretched out His hands on the Cross that He might embrace the ends of the world; for this Golgotha is the very center of the earth.”
(Catechetical Lectures, Lecture XIII)

The Fathers generally taught that Christ’s atoning sacrifice was made for all humanity, not a limited group of the elect.

The Early Church Fathers were not Calvinistic in their theology.

They affirmed human free will, saw grace as resistible, and viewed predestination as based on God’s foreknowledge of human choices. Additionally, they taught a universal scope of Christ’s atonement, rejecting any notion of its limitation to a select group. While the Fathers held to God’s sovereignty and grace, their views align more closely with synergistic theology than with the monergistic framework of Calvinism.

So according to Eph 2:8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον

--I would definitely say that faith is a gift, but it also involves a synergistic response.

Thanks.

J.

 

[Johann]

No thank you. I don't watch a channel that claims to be at war with beliefs I hold dear.

Faith is a gift as you stated. I agree with you. Faith is given to us along with belief and repentance.

Are you aware that the Early Church Fathers actually prove you wrong?
@Presby02

J.

 

[civic]

Faith is not a gift. It says that no where in the bible.

Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. This is biblical.

You can hear but if you do not accept, there can be no gift involvement


Simplified: Not my words, but biblical.

Scripture does not seem to support the idea that faith is a gift from God. The Bible simply calls upon people to believe.

One example is in Romans 4. Here Paul cites Abraham as one who was declared righteous by God on the basis of faith and not works (4:1-3). In verse five Paul writes, “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness” (emphasis added). The personal faith of the one who does not work but only believes is what results in justification. There is no intimation that this faith is anything other than his own personal faith.

Another example is in John 11. In verses 25-26, Jesus addresses Martha and says, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” In 11:27, Martha responds: by saying, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

In the interplay of the words of Jesus and Martha there is not the slightest hint that her faith is anything but her own conviction concerning the words of Jesus. There is a simple response of “Yes … I believe” to a simple question, “Do you believe this?”

Now... having said this I will add.... It is true that the fact that faith is a personal response on the part of people must be balanced with the fact that God is sovereign. The Bible clearly teaches that God convicts men of their need for salvation.... or more correctly it is the Holy Spirit that does so.


It is true that without this conviction there could be no salvation.

It is also true that this conviction will not necessarily lead anyone to repentance or change. That, as has been demonstrated, biblically, is a personal choice.... and that personal choice IS free will.

If you are bestowed with a gift of faith, after you have beens saved as others on this board claim, it is not your choice. God wants you... all... to come to Him freely

If we did not have the ability to reject God, then neither would we have the ability to truly love Him.

Genuine love and genuine good can only exist in a world where there is an opportunity for genuine rejection and genuine evil.

So, With this in mind, perhaps we might define free will as the ability to choose whatever we want, within the bounds of physical limitations.

One of the better quotes I have read simply states ..."God does not coerce people to reject Him; He simply allows them to do the only thing they want to do (sin), and He allows them to do it with a great deal of variety and creativity. God does not coerce people to accept Him, but He persuades them with tactics that cannot be refused. God is in control, but humans make real choices. Somehow, God’s control and human freedom are perfectly compatible.

You might want to re-read Romans chapter 9 thru chapter 11. Paul hits on God’s control and human choice.

God created the world as He did and gave humans the freedoms they have in order to bring glory to Himself. The glorification of God is the greatest possible good.

agreed salvation is the gift that cannot be earned- faith is mans responsibility.

And faith is the only thing by which man is saved. The gospel message must be believed. They were condemning Jesus for His works and He lets them know its His works which are the evidence He is from God- and so our faith is also evidence we are from God. That's the only work which grants eternal life that we believe.

I like how this calvinist barnes says it best

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

 

[Johann]

agreed salvation is the gift that cannot be earned- faith is mans responsibility.

And faith is the only thing by which man is saved. The gospel message must be believed. They were condemning Jesus for His works and He lets them know its His works which are the evidence He is from God- and so our faith is also evidence we are from God. That's the only work which grants eternal life that we believe.

I like how this calvinist barnes says it best

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

Saving faith is distinct from every works-righteous system because it isn’t the result of human effort. In the same way that repentance is granted by God (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25), faith is also a supernatural gift of God. Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is “not of [ourselves], it is the gift of God.” Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place, we do not have adequate power or resources. Moreover, God would not want us to rely on them even if we had them. Otherwise salvation would be in part by our own works, and we would have some ground to boast in ourselves. Paul’s emphasis in Ephesians 2:8 is that even faith does not come from us apart from God’s giving it. Human effort has nothing to do with it (cf.Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16), and thus no one should boast, as if he contributed any part.

Where I would disagree.

J.

 

[MTMattie]

I have no problem with your post

I have a problem with this-and the ECF's were not Calvinistic @MTMattie

Clement of Rome (c. AD 96)
Quote:
“Let us fix our gaze on the blood of Christ and understand how precious it is to His Father, because it was poured out for our salvation and brought the grace of repentance to the whole world. Let us look at all the generations and see that from generation to generation the Master has given a place of repentance to those who are willing to turn to Him.”
(1 Clement 7:4)

Explanation:
Clement emphasizes that repentance and the ability to turn to God are granted by Him. Though not explicitly using the term “faith as a gift,” Clement links saving faith to God’s initiative and grace.



J.

I may come back on the others but time is idiotic today.

This is exactly why there iare disagreements .

You posted that about Clement and you say " Clement emphasizes that repentance and the ability to turn to God are granted by Him."

I do not see that in your quote and my comments are in red with what I see or disagree with.

“Let us fix our gaze on the blood of Christ and understand how precious it is to His Father,( fully agree)

because it was poured out for our salvation ( fully agree)

and brought the grace of repentance ( disagree .. the words grace of repentance is awkward phraseology at best when we all know that repentence to mean “a turning from sin.” Regretting sin and turning from it are related to repentance, even though that is not the precise meaning of the word. In the Bible, the word repent means “to change one’s mind.” The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions ...seeLuke 3:8–14; Acts 3:19. In summarizing his ministry, even Paul declared, “I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds” ...see Acts 26:20.

Grace of repentance? What does that even mean... One should recognize that Grace is an essential part of God’s character. Grace is closely related to God’s benevolence, love, and mercy. Grace can be variously defined as “God’s favor toward the unworthy” or “God’s benevolence on the undeserving.” In His grace, God is willing to forgive us and bless us abundantly, in spite of the fact that we don’t deserve to be treated so well or dealt with so generously. But God does not cause anyone to repent.)

to the whole world. (disagree because while it was offered , the phrasing as such makes it seem as if the whole world repented and that
simply is not so.)

Let us look at all the generations and see that from generation to generation the Master has given a place of repentance
to those who are willing to turn to Him.” (agreed. He understands at this point that not all will repent, just those willing to turn to Him)
(1 Clement 7:4)

You
Explanation:
Clement emphasizes that repentance and the ability to turn to God are granted by Him. Though not explicitly using the term “faith as a gift,” Clement links saving faith to God’s initiative and grace. (disagree, because you or whoever wrote this explanation does not see that repentance and the ability to turn to God are by free will. )
Since you brought Pope Clement into the mix..... you might enjoy the following article from Fr. William Saunders on

Is There Free Will in Heaven? | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

Is There Free Will in Heaven?​

Full disclosure. I am not RCC advocate. There have been good and bad in that church as in all. But I follow like I do all. More so recently since Frankie (Pope Francis) seems to be a little... I shall charitably say... mixed up.

 

[civic]

Saving faith is distinct from every works-righteous system because it isn’t the result of human effort. In the same way that repentance is granted by God (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25), faith is also a supernatural gift of God. Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is “not of [ourselves], it is the gift of God.” Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place, we do not have adequate power or resources. Moreover, God would not want us to rely on them even if we had them. Otherwise salvation would be in part by our own works, and we would have some ground to boast in ourselves. Paul’s emphasis in Ephesians 2:8 is that even faith does not come from us apart from God’s giving it. Human effort has nothing to do with it (cf.Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16), and thus no one should boast, as if he contributed any part.

Where I would disagree.

J.

nowhere is all of scripture do we once see faith is ever given, granted,gifted by God to any unbeliever. In each and every case the N.T. says faith is a gift its to those who are already believers. Its why the fruit of the spirit is only for believers not unbelievers without the Spirit. And faith is a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians. In Phil 1:29 often quoted it too is for those who are already saved. In Eph 2 its talking about those who are already saved as well.

Jesus also taught that a persons faith comes before they are healed or saved. The saving/healing doesn't come before faith. Calvinism has it just the opposite.

Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.

Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

hope this helps !

 

[Johann]

nowhere is all of scripture do we once see faith is ever given, granted,gifted by God to any unbeliever. In each and every case the N.T. says faith is a gift its to those who are already believers. Its why the fruit of the spirit is only for believers not unbelievers without the Spirit. And faith is a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians. In Phil 1:29 often quoted it too is for those who are already saved. In Eph 2 its talking about those who are already saved as well.

Where did I mention faith is granted to unbelievers? Glad to know faith is a gift.

J.