Jesus taught Provisional Atonement

[brightfame52]

Here's what not a lie. You claim faith is a work. You deny faith is a gift of God. You work has merit. It is rewarded with salvation. You deny the phrase, "you are saved by grace".

Ones act of Faith/believing is a work, Jesus indicated that here, speaking to the jews Jn 8:39

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Now what is Abrahams most prominent work ? What is he known for ? Was it not Faith Believing God ? Jesus says that's his works

John 8:39 (KJB)They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. Then they answered him with a diversion believing that Abraham was their father. He may have been a physical descendant but their actions did not coincide with Abraham’s. Abraham had believed God and it was counted as righteousness but these were anything but righteous. Jesus tells them that if they were truly Abraham’s children, then they would do the works of Abraham. The works of Abraham was belief in God and to act on that belief in obedience to the Lord. Abraham was a child of God. (Gal 3:29 KJV) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. The only way these leaders could be a true child of Abraham is if they would receive Christ as their Savior. This would be the work of Abraham. Every true believer is a descendant of Abraham in the area of salvation. We are related by being in the body of Christ. https://www.scionofzion.com/gospel_of_john_8_36_40.htm

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
39. If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham—He had just said He "knew they were Abraham's children," that is, according to the flesh; but the children of his faith and holiness they were not, but the reverse.

Rom 4:12

And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

So if we say God saved us because of our Faith,our believing, then we are saying God saved me because of my works,my act of Faith or believing, which is to deny salvation by grace. See Abrahams Faith was the Gift of God, his believing God was by the power and grace of God, the New Creature.

 

[TibiasDad]

Here's what not a lie. You claim faith is a work.

Faith is the opposite of works; that is all we claim!

You deny faith is a gift of God.

Eph 2:8-9 doesn’t say that it is a gift, it says that salvation is a gift; not earned by works, and thus is acquired through faith in God’s grace.

You work has merit.

There is no such thing as merit, because God cannot be obligated to do anything by our actions.

It is rewarded with salvation. You deny the phrase, "you are saved by grace".

According to God’s promise, and nothing else. We don’t deserve anything good from God, ever; much less his salvation. If it can’t be earned, then it cannot be by anything other than grace! Salvation is by grace; it is experienced only through faith.

Doug

 

[Presby02]

Faith is the opposite of works; that is all we claim!



Eph 2:8-9 doesn’t say that it is a gift, it says that salvation is a gift; not earned by works, and thus is acquired through faith in God’s grace.


There is no such thing as merit, because God cannot be obligated to do anything by our actions.



According to God’s promise, and nothing else. We don’t deserve anything good from God, ever; much less his salvation. If it can’t be earned, then it cannot be by anything other than grace! Salvation is by grace; it is experienced only through faith.

Doug

Salvation is the gift of which faith is a part of. It is not a reward because you made the right choice.

Right. Through faith, not because of faith or your correct choice.

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation is the gift of which faith is a part of. It is not a reward because you made the right choice.

Right. Through faith, not because of faith or your correct choice.

People are twisting scripture in order to deny the clear teaching that "the Faith" in Eph 2:8 isnt a Gift of God, and not of oneself. They use the greek argument that the word that touto a neuter pronoun cannot refer to Faith a feminine noun , but thats a mistake,
Lets look at Phil 1:28

and in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
καὶ μὴ πτυρόμενοι ἐν μηδενὶ ὑπὸ τῶν ἀντικειμένων ἥτις αὐτοῖς μέν ἐστὶν ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας ὑμῖν δὲ σωτηρίας καὶ τοῦτο ἀπὸ θεοῦ·

Now it appears the pronoun that/τοῦτο is a neuter pronoun identifying the Salvation of God, Salvation being a feminine noun. Now who will deny that the word that in this scripture points to salvation ?

 

[TomL]

Here's what not a lie. You claim faith is a work. You deny faith is a gift of God. You work has merit. It is rewarded with salvation. You deny the phrase, "you are saved by grace".

So now you are confirming your previous two lies?

Now however you offer up a third

I do not deny faith is a gift

so when will your aversion to truth end?

 

[TibiasDad]

Salvation is the gift of which faith is a part of. It is not a reward because you made the right choice.

Right. Through faith, not because of faith or your correct choice.

That is not the meaning! Salvation is the gift of God. It is effected by Grace (because we don’t deserve it, and God cannot be obligated to act by what we do); this is God’s gift! All he asks from us is to trust him to do what he promised! That is not a work! That doesn’t make us worthy or obligate God to act simply because we believed. Our belief does not mandate God to save us because we have it, but because God established the condition of our belief to exist before he would save. God commands belief in order to save; we do not command salvation because we believe.

Doug

 

[Presby02]

That is not the meaning! Salvation is the gift of God. It is effected by Grace (because we don’t deserve it, and God cannot be obligated to act by what we do); this is God’s gift! All he asks from us is to trust him to do what he promised! That is not a work! That doesn’t make us worthy or obligate God to act simply because we believed. Our belief does not mandate God to save us because we have it, but because God established the condition of our belief to exist before he would save. God commands belief in order to save; we do not command salvation because we believe.

Doug

It's not a gift if you must do something to attain it. Faith is a gift. Paul asks, "what do you have that you have not recieved"? Would your answer be "my faith"?

 

[Presby02]

So now you are confirming your previous two lies?

Now however you offer up a third

I do not deny faith is a gift

so when will your aversion to truth end?

Good. So faith is a gift. Your learning. Slowly, but none the less.

 

[TibiasDad]

It's not a gift if you must do something to attain it.

Is receiving it doing something?


Doug

 

[Presby02]

Is receiving it doing something?


Doug

Depends on how you recieve it. If it's by grace, then nope. If it's do this and then you recieve your gift then you earned it.

 

[TomL]

Good. So faith is a gift. Your learning. Slowly, but none the less.

Correction to previous post

Salvation is the gift, not saving faith

But when will you learn

Romans 6:23 (LEB) — 23 For the compensation due sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nowhere in the bible is saving faith said to be a gift

your third lie was that

I deny"you are saved by grace"

 

[Presby02]

Correction to previous post

Salvation is the gift, not saving faith

But when will you learn

Romans 6:23 (LEB) — 23 For the compensation due sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nowhere in the bible is saving faith said to be a gift

your third lie was that

I deny"you are saved by grace"

You had it right the first time. LOL You actually told the truth.

Faith is part of salvation. It's through faith the gift of salvation is recieved. NOT BECAUSE IF FAITH.

You deny you are saved by grace. Tom now denys Ephesians 2:8. "For by GRACE ARE YOU SAVED"

 

[TibiasDad]

Depends on how you recieve it. If it's by grace, then nope. If it's do this and then you recieve your gift then you earned it.

It is given graciously; it is received thankfully and humbly because it is not deserved.

To receive something does not mean I have earned it. That is logically impossible ! Yet receiving is a solely human act and responsibility. We have to do something, receive God’s gift, to experience salvation from God. Your argument is stultified!


Doug

 

[TomL]

You had it right the first time. LOL You actually told the truth.

Faith is part of salvation. It's through faith the gift of salvation is recieved. NOT BECAUSE IF FAITH.

You deny you are saved by grace. Tom now denys Ephesians 2:8. "For by GRACE ARE YOU SAVED"

And you have failed to tell the truth three times now

and lie stating

You deny you are saved by grace. Tom now denys Ephesians 2:8. "For by GRACE ARE YOU SAVED"

Once again nowhere is saving faith stated to be a gift

and you are unable to produce a verse which plainly states that

 

[Johann]

Eph 2:8-9 doesn’t say that it is a gift, it says that salvation is a gift; not earned by works, and thus is acquired through faith in God’s grace.

I love this from Utley @TibiasDad.


"through faith" Faith receives God's free gift in Christ (cf. Rom_3:22; Rom_3:25; Rom_4:5; Rom_9:30; Gal_2:16; Gal_3:24; 1Pe_1:5). Mankind must respond to God's offer of grace and forgiveness in Christ (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16-17; Joh_3:36; Joh_6:40; Joh_11:25-26; Rom_10:9-13).
God deals with fallen mankind by means of a covenant. He always takes the initiative (cf. Joh_6:44; Joh_6:65) and sets the agenda and the boundaries (cf. Mar_1:15; Act_3:16; Act_3:19; Act_20:21).

He allows fallen mankind to participate in their own salvation by responding to His covenant offer. The mandated response is both initial and continuing faith. It involves repentance, obedience, service, worship, and perseverance.

The term "faith" in the OT is a metaphorical extension of a stable stance. It came to denote that which is sure, trustworthy, dependable, and faithful. None of these describe even redeemed fallen mankind. It is not mankind's trustworthiness, or faithfulness, or dependability, but God's. We trust in His trustworthy promises, not our trustworthiness! Covenant obedience flows from gratitude!

The focus has always been on His faithfulness, not the believers' faith! Faith cannot save anyone. Only grace saves, but it is received by faith. The focus is never on the amount of faith (cf. Mat_17:20), but on its object (Jesus).

J.

 

[Presby02]

And you have failed to tell the truth three times now

and lie stating



Once again nowhere is saving faith stated to be a gift

and you are unable to produce a verse which plainly states that

Tom denies he wrote "I deny you are saved by grace". See post # 91

 

[Presby02]

It is given graciously; it is received thankfully and humbly because it is not deserved.

To receive something does not mean I have earned it. That is logically impossible ! Yet receiving is a solely human act and responsibility. We have to do something, receive God’s gift, to experience salvation from God. Your argument is stultified!


Doug

None the less Doug YOU must do something to take possession of eternal life. In your theology. The difference between you and your unbelieving neighbor is what? Your choice correct? Or Gods choice?

 

[Johann]

None the less Doug YOU must do something to take possession of eternal life. In your theology. The difference between you and your unbelieving neighbor is what? Your choice correct? Or Gods choice?

Maybe this should be helpful-

What is the Gift of God

Justin Johnson

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” – Ephesians 2:8-9
Praise God for His amazing gift!

… but what is it?

For many people this verse remains wrapped up, unopened, and misunderstood as a result of misidentifying the gift of God.

The Gift of Faith?

The most popular mistake is identifying God’s gift as faith itself. After all, the gift of God is not of works, and no man can boast of it.

“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.” – Romans 3:27
The mistake begins by thinking that faith is a work. If faith is a work we can boast to save ourselves, so, they reason, faith must be a gift of God that it be “not of yourselves”.

From this perspective, the opposite of working for salvation and self boasting, is God’s gift of faith.

The Opposite of Faith

However, the opposite of faith is not works. The opposite of faith is doubt.

Though the doctrine in Mark is not for the church’s participation today, the Lord defines the believer as one that does not doubt.

“…that whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass;…” – Mark 11:23

Belief and faith are the opposite of doubt. How do we know whether to doubt or believe?

Trust God and listen to His words rightly divided, which tell you the truth of the gospel.

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” – Romans 10:17
The Opposite of Works

“…not by works, lest any man should boast.” – Eph 2:9

The opposite of works is not faith; it is grace. Grace is someone doing for you. Working is you doing for yourself. The opposite of working for something is being given something.

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” – Romans 11:6

Is grace the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8? This seems more likely, especially since grace is described in the same epistle as being given from God (Eph 3:7; Eph 4:7).

The Gift of God

So, what is the gift? Paul speaks of it many times. Salvation is the gift of God: justification, sanctification, glory, and eternal life.

That salvation which has been revealed to the apostle Paul to be by grace through faith freely unto all. Paul describes the this gift of salvation in Romans.

“…and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many…” – Romans 5:15
“…much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” – Romans 5:17
“…the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.“ – Romans 6:23
Saved By Grace Through Faith

Grace is the means God used to accomplish salvation; faith is the means through which God gives salvation. Faith is not a work, it comes by hearing the gospel of your salvation (Eph 1:13).

Salvation is not of yourselves, it is of God. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only one that saves.

Salvation is not of works, it is by grace. The Lord Jesus Christ graciously did all the work necessary for your salvation, and offers it to you.

You cannot boast in your salvation, since you didn’t achieve it, work for it, or deserve it. You merely received it and that through faith in Him who died for you (Rom 3:25-26).

How do you know if you have received the gift of God? If the gift is faith, there is no way of knowing if it was from God or a self-deception. If the gift is salvation, you know by faith in the gospel of the grace of God.

When people make the gift faith, works become necessary to identify those with the gift (James 2:18). When people know the gift is salvation, you are identified only by faith in the finished work of Christ.

“Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.” – 2 Cor 9:5

What is the Gift of God

graceambassadors.com

J.

 

[TibiasDad]

Tom denies he wrote "I deny you are saved by grace". See post # 91

This is deliberately misleading… What Tom actually said was “Nowhere in the bible is saving faith said to be a gift
your third lie was that I deny"you are saved by grace"

Character and truth are inseparable!

Doug

 

[Presby02]

This is deliberately misleading… What Tom actually said was “Nowhere in the bible is saving faith said to be a gift
your third lie was that I deny"you are saved by grace"

Character and truth are inseparable!

Doug

Good. Spread that among your fellow humanist.

Tom is simply getting a little of his own medicine. Apparently it does not taste very well.

He also said 'I do not deny faith is a gift". Your up to bat