Jesus taught Provisional Atonement

[TibiasDad]

You just cant perceive it. Everything isnt black and white in scripture

Never implied that it was; the act salvation, in itself, is not there. Only the convicting of the reality of sin and judgement.

This is the context for the passage:

John 16:7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9about sin, because people do not believe in me;10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

There is nothing about the act of saving at all; in fact, the only semi-positive thing that is mentioned is that he, Jesus, is going to the Father. That is the meaning of “righteousness” in the context. Everything else is about condemnation, not salvation.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Never implied that it was; the act salvation, in itself, is not there. Only the convicting of the reality of sin and judgement.

This is the context for the passage:

John 16:7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9about sin, because people do not believe in me;10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

There is nothing about the act of saving at all; in fact, the only semi-positive thing that is mentioned is that he, Jesus, is going to the Father. That is the meaning of “righteousness” in the context. Everything else is about condemnation, not salvation.

Doug

Jn 16:7ff is about the Spirit work in regeneration and renewal

 

[civic]

Never implied that it was; the act salvation, in itself, is not there. Only the convicting of the reality of sin and judgement.

This is the context for the passage:

John 16:7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9about sin, because people do not believe in me;10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

There is nothing about the act of saving at all; in fact, the only semi-positive thing that is mentioned is that he, Jesus, is going to the Father. That is the meaning of “righteousness” in the context. Everything else is about condemnation, not salvation.

Doug

Spot on brother

 

[TibiasDad]

Jn 16:7ff is about the Spirit work in regeneration and renewal

John16:5“But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and not one of you is asking where I am going. 6Instead, you grieve because of what I’ve told you. 7But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocate won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. 9The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me.10Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. 11Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.

12“There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’

There is no use of the word save or salvation (σώζω, or σωτηρία) in all of John 16. And Jesus’s words are all about the role of the Spirit in relation to the unconverted world and/or the life of the believer after they have believed. There is absolutely nothing about the event of regeneration or the initial moment of salvation.


Doug

 

[TomL]

The Holy Spirits role is to quicken, regenerate them for whom Christ died and Justified them, that's what Jn 16:8-10 is about. Has nothing to do with men making choices lol, you reading that into the text. He is bringing the Justified person to Faith/belief in Christ.

Nope the Holy Spirit does not regenerate those from the world

John 14:17 (LEB) — 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.

 

[TomL]

Never implied that it was; the act salvation, in itself, is not there. Only the convicting of the reality of sin and judgement.

This is the context for the passage:

John 16:7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9about sin, because people do not believe in me;10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

There is nothing about the act of saving at all; in fact, the only semi-positive thing that is mentioned is that he, Jesus, is going to the Father. That is the meaning of “righteousness” in the context. Everything else is about condemnation, not salvation.

Doug

That is the extent of the Spirit's activity for the world

 

[brightfame52]

John16:5“But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and not one of you is asking where I am going. 6Instead, you grieve because of what I’ve told you. 7But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocate won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. 9The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me.10Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. 11Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.

12“There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’

There is no use of the word save or salvation (σώζω, or σωτηρία) in all of John 16. And Jesus’s words are all about the role of the Spirit in relation to the unconverted world and/or the life of the believer after they have believed. There is absolutely nothing about the event of regeneration or the initial moment of salvation.


Doug

John 16:6-8 is describing the work of the Spirit partaking in the saving of Christs sheep, He brings them to Faith Vs 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope the Holy Spirit does not regenerate those from the world

John 14:17 (LEB) — 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.

The Holy Spirits role is to quicken, regenerate them for whom Christ died and Justified them, that's what Jn 16:8-10 is about. Has nothing to do with men making choices lol, you reading that into the text. He is bringing the Justified person to Faith/belief in Christ. The world is simply the sheep world , those from the gentiles as well

 

[Cyrus]

The Holy Spirits role is to quicken, regenerate them for whom Christ died and Justified them, that's what Jn 16:8-10 is about. Has nothing to do with men making choices lol, you reading that into the text. He is bringing the Justified person to Faith/belief in Christ. The world is simply the sheep world , those from the gentiles as well

Right the "sheep world"

 

[civic]

Right the "sheep world"

increible the thngs some will make up to suport their heretical beliefs by adding and taking away from scripture,

 

[brightfame52]

Right the "sheep world"

Thats correct, its the sheep world, the world that consists of only His Sheep

 

[Cyrus]

Thats correct, its the sheep world, the world that consists of only His Sheep

Sheep follow one another blindly. They have an instinct to flock together so as to keep safe. This means that if the leader gets lost, the rest of the flock is lost too. The truth of the matter is that if one sheep decides to go a certain way, the rest of the sheep will always go that way even if it's not a good idea.

 

[brightfame52]

Sheep follow one another blindly. They have an instinct to flock together so as to keep safe. This means that if the leader gets lost, the rest of the flock is lost too. The truth of the matter is that if one sheep decides to go a certain way, the rest of the sheep will always go that way even if it's not a good idea.

I dont know what in the world you talking about.

 

[TibiasDad]

John 16:6-8 is describing the work of the Spirit partaking in the saving of Christs sheep, He brings them to Faith Vs 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 16:14He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’

This says nothing (which means not a thing) about “bring(ing) them to faith”, in fact, Jesus (perhaps foreseeing situations like this) reinforces the meaning of his words in verse 15: The Spirit will (future tense) tell you (the current believing disciples) whatever he (the Spirit) receives from me (Jesus). In other words, after Jesus is no longer with the disciples, the Spirit will be sent to them by Jesus to tell them (teach, communicate) whatever Jesus tells him (the Spirit) to say.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Thats correct, its the sheep world, the world that consists of only His Sheep

Are you growing dizzy from being circular?


Doug

 

[TomL]

The Holy Spirits role is to quicken, regenerate them for whom Christ died and Justified them, that's what Jn 16:8-10 is about. Has nothing to do with men making choices lol, you reading that into the text. He is bringing the Justified person to Faith/belief in Christ. The world is simply the sheep world , those from the gentiles as well

The Holy Spirit makes alive those who believe

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[TomL]

John 16:6-8 is describing the work of the Spirit partaking in the saving of Christs sheep, He brings them to Faith Vs 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Nowhere does the verse state the Spirit does other than convict of truth

The passage says nothing about sheep

 

[Cyrus]

I dont know what in the world you talking about.

That's a given. It's part of being deceived. Come into the light and the truth will set you free.

 

[brightfame52]

John 16:14He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’

This says nothing (which means not a thing) about “bring(ing) them to faith”, in fact, Jesus (perhaps foreseeing situations like this) reinforces the meaning of his words in verse 15: The Spirit will (future tense) tell you (the current believing disciples) whatever he (the Spirit) receives from me (Jesus). In other words, after Jesus is no longer with the disciples, the Spirit will be sent to them by Jesus to tell them (teach, communicate) whatever Jesus tells him (the Spirit) to say.


Doug

Again Jn 16 is about the effectual regenerating work of the Spirit unto the world of the elect, He will convict them of sin and unbelief,and give them faith in the righteousness of Christ. Jn 16:7-11

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The Spirit began this conversion work on the Day of pentecost when He convicted 3000 of sin and brought them to submit to Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

The Holy Spirit makes alive those who believe

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

He makes them alive in order to believe, believing is an act of life,you got it backwards lol