Jesus denied being God

Then show where anyone in the Bible repeats your conclusions.

What you need to show is where there is any other example a YHWH OT text quoted in the NT as "Lord" does not mean YHWH, b/c my conclusion is that it always refers to YHWH.

Peter could have expressed tasting the goodness of the Lord in ref. to Jesus other ways instead of quoting from an OT text about YHWH and applying it to Jesus if he did not want us to think Jesus is YHWH.
 
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What you need to show is where there is any other example a YHWH OT text quoted in the NT as "Lord" does not mean YHWH, b/c my conclusion is that it always refers to YHWH.

Peter could have expressed tasting the goodness of the Lord in ref. to Jesus other ways instead of quoting from an OT text about YHWH and applying it to Jesus if he did not want us to think Jesus is YHWH.
correct every single OT passage quoted in the NT refers to YHWH and translated as Lord in the Greek. Its a stumbling block for unitarians. They deny the simple meaning of the word Lord in the N.T. where its quoting YHWH in the O.T. and applying it to the Son.
 
What you need to show is where there is any other example a YHWH OT text quoted in the NT as "Lord" does not mean YHWH, b/c my conclusion is that it always refers to YHWH.

Peter could have expressed tasting the goodness of the Lord in ref. to Jesus other ways instead of quoting from an OT text about YHWH and applying it to Jesus if he did not want us to think Jesus is YHWH.
So what we have is no one calling Jesus YHWH, no one inferring Jesus is YHWH, etc.

In addition to having proven the YHWH isn't the cornerstone, there are a bunch of other verses.

Observe YHWH didn't speak to YHWH here:

Psalm 110
1 The LORD said to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”
 
So what we have is no one calling Jesus YHWH, no one inferring Jesus is YHWH, etc.

This is not true. Please read and respond in your next post to what I wrote in the first post above...2581.

My guess is that you wouldn't deny YHWH is in view when this is done every other time in the NT concerning the Lord based on OT YHWH texts. I would hope that you can see that this is the consistent approach to also take about 1 Pet. 2:3 from Psalm 34:8.
 
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It's sometimes said the miracles Jesus did proved he was God, but almost every miracle that Jesus did on the earth was done in some form by earlier Prophets or by the Apostles. Miracles that include healing the sick, raising the dead, multiplying food, and even walking on water. In fact, the Old Testament Prophets did some amazing miracles that Jesus did not do such as splitting an ocean apart, stopping a river, making the sun stop in the sky, and calling down fire from heaven. God was the one who worked the miracles through the Prophets and He also worked them through Jesus (Acts 2:22).
 
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I chose to stick with 1 Pet. 2:3 b/c it so clearly refers to Jesus. Are there others?

Joel 2:32
32
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;

For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.


Paul quotes this OT passage about YHWH and apply it to Jesus who is the one and only Lord according to the N.T.

Romans 10:9-13
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of C all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


John 12:41

These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him

Isaiah 6:1-10

In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,

"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,

The whole earth is full of His glory."

4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,

"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,

Because I am a man of unclean lips,

And I live among a people of unclean lips;,

For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."


One need only follow the pronouns and the verbs. Isaiah saw the glory of YHWH. There is only ONE time that Isaiah saw the glory of YHWH; its in Ish 6. John says that Isaiah saw "his" glory, the glory of Jesus. That Isaiah ALSO foretold the suffering and rejection of Christ is true but irrelevant. You are confusing what Isaiah foretold (Christ's suffering and rejection) with what he literally "saw" (the glory of YWHW).

The verb Isaiah used for "saw" in 6;1 is רָאָה ("ra'ah"). In the qal, it refers to the act of seeing in the literal sense, to see with the eyes (as opposed to, for example, מַחֲזֶה "machazeh", which is the act or event of an ecstatic "vision"). In referring to this event, John uses the Greek word εἶδον ("eidon") - also a verb referring to the act of seeing with the eyes in the natural sense.

We know that God the Father is invisible, "whom no man hath seen, nor can see" (1 Tim 6:16). He is transcendent and lives in unapproachable light (1 Tim 6:16). But the Son is "the image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15). Thus the one whom Isaiah "saw" in the literal sense with his eyes is the one whom he explicitly identified as "YHWH" - the same one whose glory he saw according to John (Jn 12:41). Jesus himself makes this clear at v.45 "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me."

There is only ONE time when Isaiah saw someone he, speaking by the Holy Spirit identified as "YHWH", and John's spirit-inspired narrative of the interactions of Jesus with the Jews in the 11th and 12th chapter of his gospel, including their rejection of Christ, says that what Isaiah saw was HIS (ie Jesus') glory. This works in perfect harmony with John's whole purpose, given the FACT that John had previously identified the one who became flesh and dwelt among us (Jn 1:14) as "God" (Jn 1:1). Nowhere in the context of this narrative (ie Ch 12) does John speak of Christ's "glorification" in his rejection and crucifixion. To claim that this is what John was talking about in referring to what Isaiah SAW with his eyes ignores the grammar and the immediate context, including the clear and unmistakable words of Christ himself in that very context.

hope this helps !!!
 
Isa 43:15
"I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King."


Isa 44:6
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


Isa 45:6
That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other,


Isa 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

We know from the N.T. that Christ is the One Lord, the Only Lord. We know in Revelations that Christ identifies Himself as the First and the Last the title which YHWH declares of Himself in Isaiah. We know that Christ is also identifies as the Holy One in the N.T. and our King all titles and descriptions of YHWH in the Isaiah passages.

Rev 22:13, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

We can see here that Whoever is the Alpha/Omega also claims to be the first/last AND the beginning/end. It’s the same Person.

If we look back in Rev 1:17-18 we see the following:

“…Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

So, the One Who is first/last (and then is also Alpha/Omega and beginning/end) is the same Person who was dead and is alive forever more. It doesn’t take a scholar to figure out Who is the One speaking here. It does take a lot of mental gymnastics to explain away something so obvious.

The term "first/last" is used 4 times in Rev. Twice it is used along with "Alpha/Omega" with the Person claiming to be "first/last" AND the "Alpha/Omega."

"Alpha/Omega" is used 4 times in Rev. Twice with "first/last" and twice with "beginning/end."

"Beginning/end" occurs 3 times: twice with "Alpha/Omega" and once with "Alpha/Omega" AND "first/last."

In all of these texts, the speaker always refers to Himself with both or all of the titles. To say, "Well, this time it's Jehovah who is the first/last, this next time it's Jesus, then later it's Jehovah again..." is the mental gymnastics to which I referred.

Is God the first/last or is Jesus the first/last? Is God the Alpha/Omega or is Jesus the Alpha/Omega? Is God the beginning/end or is Jesus the beginning/end. An obvious way to reconcile the verses is to understand that Jesus is God.

According to unitarians, it seems God claimed to be the first/last in one sense while Jesus claimed to be first/last in another sense. You seem to gloss over the blatant connection of first/last with beginning/end and Alpha/Omega. In each verse, the Speaker who claims one title also claims one or both of the others. It's all the same person.

I usually wait patiently for unitarians to reply but this point has been nagging at me so I have to comment preemptively. I really am baffled by their suggestion from other discussion in the past that “first/last” has some meaning here other than the obvious one (a title synonymous with Alpha/Omega). You even say that Alpha/Omega is never used of the Son? Incredible!! We both have said that context is king so I would like to remind other readers of the context of Rev 1:17-18 (beginning in v.10, Young’s Literal):

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, `What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'

And I did turn to see the voice that did speak with me, and having turned, I saw seven golden lamp-stands, and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, [one] like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle, and his head and hairs white, as if white wool -- as snow, and his eyes as a flame of fire; and his feet like to fine brass, as in a furnace having been fired, and his voice as a sound of many waters, and having in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword is proceeding, and his countenance [is] as the sun shining in its might.

And when I saw him, I did fall at his feet as dead, and he placed his right hand upon me, saying to me, `Be not afraid; I am the First and the Last, and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

Do you realize this is one scene? The Speaker identifies Himself in v. 11 as “the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last.” John turns to see who is speaking and sees “one like to a son of man” (other translations have “the Son of man”). Perhaps John is saying, "I saw someone who looked like Jesus." Then finally, in v. 17-18, the Speaker indeed identifies Himself as the One who is living and became dead and is now alive again forever.

Unitarians: I guess you identify the Alpha and Omega in v. 8 as Jehovah and v. 11 as Jesus? I guess you don’t see the term “the First and the Last” as a title equivalent to “the Alpha and Omega”? If so, you are definitely seeing something in the text that an ordinary reading doesn’t see beacuse of your bias.

It’s a title ascribed to the Almighty. I didn’t think it needed a more precise definition to be understood. What about, “the one who is and who was and who to come”? Does that need to be defined? I guess we could talk about a precise definition but I don’t think that will change my point. The Alpha/Omega is self-described as “the Almighty (1:8) AND the First/Last (22:13). The First/Last is self-described as the one who was dead and is alive forever more (1:18). Again, there are either 2 people who are the first and last OR Jesus is the Almighty.

Conclusion: Scripture declares YHWH is the First and the Last and besides Me there is no God/YHWH. Christ is YHWH.

hope this helps !!!
 
Psalm 34:8 is not referenced in the footnotes of the ESV or the KJV for 1 Peter 2:3. It is a close quote but not an exact quote.
BUT just because OT quotes are brought forward into the NT does not change the identity of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, God's Messiah. ....... Applicable and refer to Yahweh in the OT and when quoted in the NT are applicable and refer to His Son.

In the context of 1 Peter 2:3-8a, I would say that the 'Lord' refers to Jesus Christ - the living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious.
Is Yahweh EVER referred to as the 'stone the builders rejected' or the 'cornerstone'?
Was Yahweh chosen and precious in the sight of God?
 
This is not true. Please read and respond in your next post to what I wrote in the first post above...2581.

My guess is that you wouldn't deny YHWH is in view when this is done every other time in the NT concerning the Lord based on OT YHWH texts. I would hope that you can see that this is the consistent approach to also take about 1 Pet. 2:3 from Psalm 34:8.
Jesus isn't the same Lord as YHWH though. Do you agree or disagree with that?
 
Terms found nowhere in Scripture...
  • Deity
  • Co-equal
  • Co-eternal
  • Incarnated
  • Eternal son
  • Infinite son
  • God the son
  • One substance
  • Persons of God
  • God became man
  • Eternally begotten
  • Pre-existent Christ
  • God the Holy Spirit
  • Pre-incarnate Christ
  • Three persons, three in one
  • Trinity, Triune God, Tri-unity
  • Two nature's, Hypostatic union
Or any combination of 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person.

No, I don't want to see the word trinity in the Bible...

I want to see the trinity doctrine taught in the Bible and if it's not taught by the Jews and that means the Old Testament Prophets and not the unbelieving Jews you guys always throw in my face. And if it's not taught in the New Testament. Then it's not a biblical concept.

I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.

One verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
One verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
One verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
One verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
One verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
One verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.
 
Terms found nowhere in Scripture...
  • Deity
  • Co-equal
  • Co-eternal
  • Incarnated
  • Eternal son
  • Infinite son
  • God the son
  • One substance
  • Persons of God
  • God became man
  • Eternally begotten
  • Pre-existent Christ
  • God the Holy Spirit
  • Pre-incarnate Christ
  • Three persons, three in one
  • Trinity, Triune God, Tri-unity
  • Two nature's, Hypostatic union
Or any combination of 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person.

No, I don't want to see the word trinity in the Bible...

I want to see the trinity doctrine taught in the Bible and if it's not taught by the Jews and that means the Old Testament Prophets and not the unbelieving Jews you guys always throw in my face. And if it's not taught in the New Testament. Then it's not a biblical concept.

I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.

One verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
One verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
One verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
One verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
One verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
One verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.
Jesus forgave sinners, Created all that was created, preexisted with the father from all eternity, will be the final judge etc
 
You have seen it, but are spiritually blinded to that truth so far
According to Scripture Jesus isn't God. You have probably seen the below passage a thousand times. I am curious what the thought process is for you upon reading concrete proof about the Father's exclusive deity. Are you finding that you are looking for ways to argue around it? Do you feel tempted to deny what it says, redefine words, or explain it away?

John 17
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

The only way your hypothesis makes any sense is if Jesus isn't God or if Jesus is actually the Father. Either way, that's a problem for your beliefs so I can understand why you would continue trying to argue your way out of Jesus clearly not being YHWH.

Here's another example. Do you see that Jesus isn't the God of Abraham? It says he's God's servant, others who are God's servant aren't God, then neither is Jesus. Help us understand your thought process here so we can help you out.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.
 
According to Scripture Jesus isn't God. You have probably seen the below passage a thousand times. I am curious what the thought process is for you upon reading concrete proof about the Father's exclusive deity. Are you finding that you are looking for ways to argue around it? Do you feel tempted to deny what it says, redefine words, or explain it away?

John 17
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

The only way your hypothesis makes any sense is if Jesus isn't God or if Jesus is actually the Father. Either way, that's a problem for your beliefs so I can understand why you would continue trying to argue your way out of Jesus clearly not being YHWH.

Here's another example. Do you see that Jesus isn't the God of Abraham? It says he's God's servant, others who are God's servant aren't God, then neither is Jesus. Help us understand your thought process here so we can help you out.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.
Ties into Philippians, as paul stated to us under Holy Spirit inspiration that though jesus existed in heaven with God as also very God, willing to come down to Earth as a servant, as the Suffering Servant of isaiah 53
 
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