101G
Active Member
you haven't answer any question 101G has put forth. so last time "WHO SITS ON THE ONE THRONE" the Father or the Son.
1`01G
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
1`01G
101G
Active Member
the final time "who sits on the throne in Revelation 4 and chapter 5 is it the Father, yes or NO?"
101G
Runningman
Active Member
LoL I haven't answered your questions? That's a cop-out Mr. 101 Games.
Runningman
Active Member
There are multiple thrones. Already showed you where Jesus said "my throne" and "the Father's throne." Where the elders worshipped was before the throne of God, not the throne of the Lamb. I already answered this.
101G
Active Member
that's a ERROR of multiple thrones. 101G can care less who throne it is. 101G asked who ... "SITS" ...... on it. and you cannot answer, meaning you are in ERROR. good day, until you can understand the TRUTH.
as said, don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures. until you can answer to who sits on the throne, no need to reply.
101G
civic
Active Member
Who existed before John who was 6 months older than him. Your own verse contradicts your view of Jesus and His preexistence.
Runningman
Active Member
Bad reason and logic. For your doctrine to work then you would have the lump the entire church in with being God. Doesn't work. Sharing authority doesn't make someone God. That's what the idea of the thrones are about. Have some class. You are correct about very few things.
101G
Active Member
Runningman
Active Member
The word "before" in John 1:30 refers to being before in the principal or more important sense of the word, not age or pre-existence. What you have proposed is a huge stretch and leap from what John said.
Runningman
Active Member
See post #1.
civic
Active Member
Your view is 100% your presuppositions and void of proper exegesis of the text.
Your denial is hopeless
John 1:1–2 (NIV) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
Nowhere stated
Philippians 2:5–6 (NIV) — 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
He had the same nature as God
In its original context
The seventh chapter of Isaiah takes place about 700 BCE, and describes an alliance between Syria and the northern kingdom of Israel, whose combined forces threaten to destroy the kingdom of Judah. The prophet Isaiah assures Achaz, King of Judah, that GOD will protect his kingdom. He prophesies that a child will be born to a certain woman, and that, before the child learns to distinguish good from evil, the two kingdoms threatening Judah will be destroyed (verses 15 - 16).
There you go reading your theology into the passage
Not only is he called God in the passage he is called LORD and creator of heaven and earth
Hebrews 1:8–10 (LSB) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF UPRIGHTNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING FOUNDED THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
That would be somewhat difficult if as you claim he had no previous existence
Philippians 2:5–8 (NIV) — 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
So you do not obey
John 5:23 (NIV) — 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Matthew 28:17 (NIV) — 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
Matthew 28:17 (NIV) — 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
Runningman
Active Member
Then feel free to quote the verse about what Jesus was saying or doing in a pre-existent state. No one has found it yet.
civic
Active Member
John 17:5 for starters.
Runningman
Active Member
Seems denying Scripture is how you keep your doctrines strung together. It's right there in the Greek of John 1:30. Jesus is before John in the sense of importance. John is older than Jesus so what you have presented doesn't make any sense.
G4413. prótos
Strong's Concordance
prótos: first, chief
Original Word: πρῶτος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prótos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro'-tos)
Definition: first, chief
Usage: first, before, principal, most important.
Runningman
Active Member
Says he was glorified "now" in the present tense. Jesus wasn't doing what he was doing in the present tense before the world was. The only thing that existed was God's plan and foreknowledge. Hence there are no actual verses about Jesus saying or doing anything in your pre-existence doctrine.
civic
Active Member
try reading these without your UNITARIAN glasses on and believe what the text declares.
These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.
John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.
Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.
John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."
Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world
John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
And
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
These 2 verses say that he is before all things.
Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.
Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1
Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?
So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.
30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.
We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.
Moving on we read the following in this passage.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.
aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.
conclusion: the Preexistence of the Son prior to His birth as a man in irrefutable and undeniable.
hope this helps !!!
