Jesus denied being God

[Runningman]

Nowhere stated

Philippians 2:5–6 (NIV) — 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

He had the same nature as God

Are you sure what about what the word "form" means? It says it refers to the outward appearance. That must be the case or Jesus lost the same nature of God, as you say, in Mark 16.

Mark 16
12After this, Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them as they walked along in the country.

In its original context

The seventh chapter of Isaiah takes place about 700 BCE, and describes an alliance between Syria and the northern kingdom of Israel, whose combined forces threaten to destroy the kingdom of Judah. The prophet Isaiah assures Achaz, King of Judah, that GOD will protect his kingdom. He prophesies that a child will be born to a certain woman, and that, before the child learns to distinguish good from evil, the two kingdoms threatening Judah will be destroyed (verses 15 - 16).

Oh okay, so Isaiah 7 regarding Immanuel isn't about Jesus in the original context? Matthew didn't share that belief with you. He said so in Matt 1:22-23.

 

[Runningman]

There you go reading your theology into the passage

Not only is he called God in the passage he is called LORD and creator of heaven and earth

Hebrews 1:8–10 (LSB) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF UPRIGHTNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING FOUNDED THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

You can quote it as many times as you wish and Psalm 45 isn't going anywhere. Hebrews 1:10 refers to the God who anointed the Son in verses 8-9. YHWH is Jesus' Father and the Son is not the Father right? We are going to make you a believer.

Hebrews 1​

5For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?​

​

Psalm 2​

7I will proclaim the decree spoken to Me by the LORD: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.​

​

Hebrews 1​

13Yet to which of the angels did God ever say: “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”?​

​

Psalm 110​

1The LORD said to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”​

That would be somewhat difficult if as you claim he had no previous existence

Philippians 2:5–8 (NIV) — 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

Verse 5 is telling the church of Philippi to think those things. I already asked someone else, but which verse shows what Jesus was saying or doing before he was a man?

 

[Runningman]

So you do not obey

John 5:23 (NIV) — 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Context is about judgement though.

Matthew 28:17 (NIV) — 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Matthew 28:17 (NIV) — 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Means to crouch or bow to the Son, but the kind of true worship in spirit and truth Jesus taught is only given to the Father. The true worshippers worship the Father only according to Scripture.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

 

[TomL]

Context is about judgement though.

You are expected to honor the son as you honor the father and if you do not you do not honor the father

Means to crouch or bow to the Son, but the kind of true worship in spirit and truth Jesus taught is only given to the Father. The true worshippers worship the Father only according to Scripture.

Matthew 28:17 (NIV) — 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
The word is proginosko the same word used to indicate worship of the father

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

John 4:23–24 (NIV) — 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship (proginosko)the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship (proginosko) in the Spirit and in truth.”

 

[Runningman]

not the care try reading these without your UNITARIAN glasses on and believe what the text declares.

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses say that he is before all things.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in this passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

conclusion: the Preexistence of the Son prior to His birth as a man in irrefutable and undeniable.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus wasn't slain before the creation of the world. Rather he was slain one time after the creation of the world in Israel.

Revelation 13​

8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. ​

This is just one of the many examples in which someone or something is spoken of in a prophetic sense that didn't actually come to pass until a later time. This speaks to the omniscience and omnipresence of God, apparently existing in past, present, and future simultaneously and speaking of the things that were not yet as though they were already.

We can test the consistency of your theory with Jeremiah.

How did God know Jeremiah if he wasn't even formed in the womb yet?

Jeremiah 1​

4The word of the Lord came to me, saying,​

5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew a you,​

before you were born I set you apart;​

I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”​

 

[civic]

Jesus wasn't slain before the creation of the world. Rather he was slain one time after the creation of the world in Israel.

Revelation 13​

8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. ​

This is just one of the many examples in which someone or something is spoken of in a prophetic sense that didn't actually come to pass until a later time. This speaks to the omniscience and omnipresence of God, apparently existing in past, present, and future simultaneously and speaking of the things that were not yet as though they were already.

We can test the consistency of your theory with Jeremiah.

How did God know Jeremiah if he wasn't even formed in the womb yet?

Jeremiah 1​

4The word of the Lord came to me, saying,​

5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew a you,​

before you were born I set you apart;​

I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”​

you ignored all the scriptures I posted that disprove your human reasoning and logic.

 

[TomL]

You can quote it as many times as you wish and Psalm 45 isn't going anywhere. Hebrews 1:10 refers to the God who anointed the Son in verses 8-9. YHWH is Jesus' Father and the Son is not the Father right? We are going to make you a believer.

Nope

Hebrews 1:8–13 (NIV) — 8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” 10 He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.” 13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?

He references God

You, your reference Jesus Christ

what follows refers to the son in both cases

compare

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

[Runningman]

You are expected to honor the son as you honor the father and if you do not you do not honor the father

Honor doesn't mean worship.

Matthew 28:17 (NIV) — 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
The word is proginosko the same word used to indicate worship of the father


John 4:23–24 (NIV) — 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship (proginosko)the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship (proginosko) in the Spirit and in truth.”

Crouching isn't true worship in spirit and truth. There is no such teaching to give that to Jesus, but rather the only teaching on the kind of worship Christians are to give is to the Father in John 4:23-24. Do you obey Jesus' teachings? He never told anyone to worship him as God or give him true worship in spirit and truth.

 

[TomL]

Are you sure what about what the word "form" means? It says it refers to the outward appearance. That must be the case or Jesus lost the same nature of God, as you say, in Mark 16.

Mark 16
12After this, Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them as they walked along in the country.

Oh okay, so Isaiah 7 regarding Immanuel isn't about Jesus in the original context? Matthew didn't share that belief with you. He said so in Matt 1:22-23.

UM God being a spirit does not have a physical form

That would be a category error

 

[civic]

Honor doesn't mean worship.


Crouching isn't true worship in spirit and truth. There is no such teaching to give that to Jesus, but rather the only teaching on the kind of worship Christians are to give is to the Father in John 4:23-24. Do you obey Jesus' teachings? He never told anyone to worship him as God or give him true worship in spirit and truth.

And the Father never said :

I Am God !

so what you are making is known as an argument from silence fallacy.

next

 

[TomL]

Honor doesn't mean worship.


Crouching isn't true worship in spirit and truth. There is no such teaching to give that to Jesus, but rather the only teaching on the kind of worship Christians are to give is to the Father in John 4:23-24. Do you obey Jesus' teachings? He never told anyone to worship him as God or give him true worship in spirit and truth.

Can you deny worship is a form of honor?

You are to honor the Son as you honor the Father

Additionally Jesus receives proginosko just as the father receives proginoskoi

Seems denying Scripture is how you keep your doctrines strung together. It's right there in the Greek of John 1:30. Jesus is before John in the sense of importance. John is older than Jesus so what you have presented doesn't make any sense.

G4413. prótos
Strong's Concordance
prótos: first, chief
Original Word: πρῶτος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prótos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro'-tos)
Definition: first, chief
Usage: first, before, principal, most important.

Um John 1:1 shows Jesus existed as the word long before the baptist and created heaven and earth

other verses confirm this

John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


sorry your denial of Christ's pre-existence is hopeless and unbiblical

and my argument was not based on John 1:30 so you are not even addressing it

 

[Runningman]

not the care try reading these without your UNITARIAN glasses on and believe what the text declares.

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

Strange translation since it doesn't match the word order of the Greek. John 1:30 says that this person is a man. Men didn't pre-exist their before.

John 1
30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

There is nothing about existing before John in verses 1:15,30. What version is this?

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

There you have it then. Jesus said he is the Son of Man from heaven. In other words, he is a human from heaven. Jesus didn't descend from the sky as a human my friend and God isn't the son of man.

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

You are inserting the idea of a pre-existence. Again, this idea is already repeated in Scripture about being sent into the world and it doesn't mean a pre-existence.

Mark 16
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

In this chapter Jesus compares himself to the manna from heaven. There is no such verse about the manna pre-existing eternally in heaven. For the comparison to be true, Jesus must not have pre-existed.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

Jesus said others can be from above, too. It doesn't mean they pre-existed.

John 3
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
7Do not wonder that I said to you, ‘It is necessary for you all to be born from above.’

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

In Acts 3:13 Jesus is the son/servant of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob therefore he isn't the God of Abraham, etc. Exodus 3:14-15 says the God of Abraham, etc is YHWH, the I AM. That means that isn't Jesus.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus...

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Jesus like all people do.

Ecclesiastes 12
7before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:1-3 says the Father is the only true God by the way, but John 17:5 is in regards to him being glorified "now." The glory Jesus had with God must have been in a prophetic sense since Jesus didn't have it "now" until God gave it to him.

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Not much of a point since God loved us before the foundation of the world too. You are making many points that ignore Scripture. You're proof texting.

Ephesians 1
4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.


continued...

 

[dwight92070]

Runningman The following are from the thread "The Trinity the Touchstone of Truth". I've given 19 examples in this thread of the Deity of Jesus, starting on page 14 #278, with "Exhibit A". My latest example was "Exhibit S", #503 on this page, page 26. I call them "exhibits" like evidence in a courtroom. By quickly scanning through my posts during that time period, you can easily locate them. You can view all 19 of them and I'm sure there will be more forthcoming, because the New Testament is chock full of evidence of Jesus being God.
The question is whether one chooses to believe the scripture or not.

I dealt with Luke 18:18-23. That one is a slam dunk for the Deity of Jesus. Jesus is good. He claimed to be without sin. He never sinned once. He claimed that He was the good shepherd. Peter said that He "went about doing good".

We know that Jesus knew that there were many people who were good, in the sense that they were made righteous by Jesus having washed away their sins. So when He says that God alone is good, He must be referring to being intrinsically sinless. Of course ONLY God is without sin. BUT, JESUS TOO was without sin. Therefore Jesus is God.

"Exhibit T" "God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory." 1 Tim. 3:16 All these things were true of Jesus (and the Word, God, became flesh in Jesus). Therefore Jesus is God.


Report

 

[Runningman]

UM God being a spirit does not have a physical form

That would be a category error

Speaking of category errors... Philippians 2:5-8 isn't about Jesus being in the nature of God then.

 

[Runningman]

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

This doesn't mention a pre-existence. Subject is the God who is before all ages, not Jesus.

And

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Context refers to the church. It's not literally all things. Many examples of "all things" not being literally "all things."

Colossians 1
18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.

These 2 verses say that he is before all things.

Paul was exaggerating the context like he did in verse 23.The gospel wasn't been preached to every person on planet earth.

Colossians 1
23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

That isn't what it says. Jesus is the son of David. If Jesus existed before David this he isn't David's son.

Matthew 1
1This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1

Satan didn't fall like lightning before the birth of Christ.

Satan falls like lightning to earth when he is thrown down before the Great Tribulation. The war in heaven is still a future event.

Revelation 12
10And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of His Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—
he who accuses them day and night before our God.

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

Context is prophetic of a future event where Jesus is the shepherd and it says his God is YHWH.

Micah 5
4He will stand and shepherd His flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majestic name of the LORD His God.
And they will dwell securely,
for then His greatness will extend
to the ends of the earth.

So Jesus was with God in the beginning.

Not in Genesis.

We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

This is about a spiritual rock. The rock Moses struck, which gushed forth water, is foreshadowing of Jesus being pierced in his side where water came out.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites.

Jesus is not the angel of the Lord. The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was already born.

Matthew 2
13 When they had departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, flee to Egypt,* and stay there until I tell you. Herod is going to search for the child to destroy him.”

Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

You're reading a bit too far into this I think. I can't find the reference you're alluding to.

Moving on we read the following in this passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

God made the literal universe in the past, but God didn't speak through the Son until these last days, so speaking through the Son isn't how God made the literal universe in the past. You rightly pointed out that the word in Hebrews 1:2 is ages. It refers to the ages that were created in these last days... this is a reference to the church age/Messianic age. It's about Jesus being a prophet through whom God created the church.

conclusion: the Preexistence of the Son prior to His birth as a man in irrefutable and undeniable.

hope this helps !!!

All soundly refuted. Anything else?

 

[Runningman]

And the Father never said :

I Am God !

so what you are making an argument from silence fallacy.

next

Amazing. You think the Father isn't YHWH who never said He is God? It's all over the Old Testament.

 

[Runningman]

Can you deny worship is a form of honor?

Context is about judgement. Honor the judgement that the Father entrusted to Jesus. Jesus wasn't speaking about worship.

John 5
22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

You are to honor the Son as you honor the Father

Additionally Jesus receives proginosko just as the father receives proginoskoi

So your argument is when someone is bowed to in the bible then they are being worshipped as God? That isn't a good precedent. Many people were bowed to in the Bible who are not God. Literal bowing has very little if anything to do with spirit and truth worship that Jesus taught only the Father having in John 4:23-24. If all you're doing is bowing, it may as well be lip service. It's practically useless.

Um John 1:1 shows Jesus existed as the word long before the baptist and created heaven and earth

other verses confirm this

John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


sorry your denial of Christ's pre-existence is hopeless and unbiblical

and my argument was not based on John 1:30 so you are not even addressing it

Read some of the above addresses I gave @civic who has yet to respond to all of my refutes. You will find your questions answered.

 

[Runningman]

Runningman The following are from the thread "The Trinity the Touchstone of Truth". I've given 19 examples in this thread of the Deity of Jesus, starting on page 14 #278, with "Exhibit A". My latest example was "Exhibit S", #503 on this page, page 26. I call them "exhibits" like evidence in a courtroom. By quickly scanning through my posts during that time period, you can easily locate them. You can view all 19 of them and I'm sure there will be more forthcoming, because the New Testament is chock full of evidence of Jesus being God.
The question is whether one chooses to believe the scripture or not.

I dealt with Luke 18:18-23. That one is a slam dunk for the Deity of Jesus. Jesus is good. He claimed to be without sin. He never sinned once. He claimed that He was the good shepherd. Peter said that He "went about doing good".

We know that Jesus knew that there were many people who were good, in the sense that they were made righteous by Jesus having washed away their sins. So when He says that God alone is good, He must be referring to being intrinsically sinless. Of course ONLY God is without sin. BUT, JESUS TOO was without sin. Therefore Jesus is God.

"Exhibit T" "God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory." 1 Tim. 3:16 All these things were true of Jesus (and the Word, God, became flesh in Jesus). Therefore Jesus is God.

You're missing the mark a bit. There are those who are evil who are good and those who are sinners who have the good fruit of the spirit called love.

Matthew 7​

11So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!​

​

Luke 6​

32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.​

​

You're conflating the exclusive goodness that only God has that Jesus and others do not. All good comes from the Father, not Jesus. That's what Jesus meant when he said only God is good. James seems to agree.

James 1​

17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow.​

 

[TomL]

Context is about judgement. Honor the judgement that the Father entrusted to Jesus. Jesus wasn't speaking about worship.

John 5
22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.



So your argument is when someone is bowed to in the bible then they are being worshipped as God? That isn't a good precedent. Many people were bowed to in the Bible who are not God. Literal bowing has very little if anything to do with spirit and truth worship that Jesus taught only the Father having in John 4:23-24. If all you're doing is bowing, it may as well be lip service. It's practically useless.

Read some of the above addresses I gave @civic who has yet to respond to all of my refutes. You will find your questions answered.

My argument is the bible shows believers worshipped Christ

Matthew 28:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

As does the hosts of heaven

Revelation 5:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[TomL]

Speaking of category errors... Philippians 2:5-8 isn't about Jesus being in the nature of God then.

Sorry but the text contradicts you

As do Greek scholars



Philippians 2:6

Being (ὑπαρχων [huparchōn]). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of ὑπαρχω [huparchō]. In the form of God (ἐν μορφῃ θεου [en morphēi theou]). Μορφη [Morphē] means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ


A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Php 2:6.

Being in the form of God (ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων). Being. Not the simple εἶναι to be, but stronger, denoting being which is from the beginning. See on Jas. 2:15. It has a backward look into an antecedent condition, which has been protracted into the present. Here appropriate to the preincarnate being of Christ, to which the sentence refers. In itself it does not imply eternal, but only prior existence. Form (μορφή). We must here dismiss from our minds the idea of shape. The word is used in its philosophic sense, to denote that expression of being which carries in itself the distinctive nature and character of the being to whom it pertains, and is thus permanently identified with that nature and character

Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 3; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 430.


Verse six
The first word which we must carefully study is “form.” The Greek word has no reference to the shape of any physical object. It was a Greek philosophical term. Vincent has an excellent note on the word. In discussing it, he has among other things, the following to say: “We must here dismiss from our minds the idea of shape. The word is used in its philosophical sense to denote that expression of being which carries in itself the distinctive nature and character of the being to whom it pertains, and is thus permanently identified with that nature and character … As applied to God, the word is intended to describe that mode in which the essential being of God expresses itself


Kenneth S. Wuest, Wuest’s Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: For the English Reader (vol. 5; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1997), 62.