MTMattie
Active member
It was when I wrote that
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
I understand that
Sorry no you do not
Creation was spoken of and recreation was not, Nor is it true Christ recreated all things
Context does not support your claim
Peterlag
Well-known member
Water means nothing and it only gets you wet. The Catholics who have never been right about anything brought water in to take away from the power of the spirit that Christians are baptized in.
It can also get you drowned
Posts like this miss the context of scripture. The time that water baptism means nothing is when someone does it without having faith in Christ. Baptism is not required but it is symbolic of joining in Christ in death and resurrection.
Runningman
Well-known member
Not according to Scripture.
God the Father has control over someone's eternal destiny:
The Father gave Jesus the authority to give eternal life to those whom God gave him. John 17:2
The Father sent Jesus to save the world through him. John 3:17
Only those who do the will of the Father, not Jesus, will enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 7:21
Regarding the Sabbath:
Jesus didn't establish the Sabbath, but rather YHWH did. Exodus 20:8-11
The Sabbath was made for people like Jesus because he was Jew who was bound to the law. Mark 2:27
Jesus does answer prayers in Scripture:
Jesus taught only to pray to the Father. Matthew 6:6,9
Jesus said don't ask him for anything, but rather ask the Father in his name, and the Father will give it. John 16:23
Regarding worship:
Jesus only taught about worshipping the Father. John 4:23-24
God on the throne was worshipped, not the Lamb. Revelation 5:11-14
God worshipped, not the Lamb. Revelation 7:11,12
Regarding forgiving sins:
God gave Jesus the authority, and men, to forgive sins. Matthew 9:5-8
Regarding angels:
Angels also belong to people. Matthew 18:10
Angels are servants of humans. Hebrews 1:14
Concerning God's elect:
Israel is called God's elect. Isaiah 45:4
The elect is anyone chosen by God. Romans 11:5-7
Regarding the kingdom of God:
The sovereignty and dominion of the kingdom will be given to the people. It's the saints' kingdom. Daniel 7:27
Regarding the title son of man:
God is not a man or son of man. Numbers 23:19
Son of man refers to people. Job 25:6, Psalm 80:17, Psalm 144:3, Ezekiel 2:1
Jesus is called a man many times. John 8:40, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, 1 Timothy 2:5
Regarding being son of God:
Many are son of God and are not God. Psalm 82:6, Job 1:6, Luke 20:36, 1 John 3:1
Regarding Jesus' alleged claims to be God:
Jesus made no such direct or explicit declarations of being God, being deity, etc.
Jesus denied being God in Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19, John 10:34-36
Regarding who the apostles called God:
Paul God the Father God in the opening of all of his letters and directly in Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 8:6
John called the Father the true God in 1 John 5:20
Peter called the Father God in 1 Peter 1:2
Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus isn't the LORD YHWH in Psalm 2:7, Psalm 110:1, Micah 5:4, Exodus 3:14,15, etc. Therefore he isn't suddenly YHWH anywhere in Scripture. Jesus spoke of YHWH in the third-person perspective, which is how people talk of others who are not themselves, in Matthew 22:32. Peter did not identify Jesus as YHWH in Acts 3:13, bur rather YHWH's servant/son.
This proves that Paul did not believe that Jesus is God. As was already stated above, no one, not even Jesus, believed that Jesus is YHWH nor has anyone said any such things. For example, Jesus' name isn't YHWH, but rather his real name is Yeshuah, which means that YHWH saves or YHWH is salvation. The Bible teaches that all salvation, eternal life, etc. comes from the Father is is Lord over all in Ephesians 4:4-6.
Paul quoted Isaiah 28:16 proving that Jesus is not YHWH. In "So this is what the Lord GOD says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; the one who believes will never be shaken."
As you can see above, Jesus is the cornerstone that YHWH laid, not YHWH.
This does not refer to Jesus nor did anyone in the New Testament said it did. You are thinking of John 12:40, 41 where the only part quoted from Isaiah 6 is verse 10. Therefore the only section in in Isaiah 6 that relates to Jesus is verse 10. The other parts are a different topic and context. To prove it, Isaiah 1:1 refers to Isaiah 6:1 as the vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah.
This verse plainly teaches that when the name of Jesus is bowed to by anyone in heaven, earth, or under earth that he does not get in glory for it. The only one mentioned to be getting any glory is the Father. It doesn't even say that Jesus is being bowed to, but rather his name.
According to 1 Corinthians 2:15, Paul seems to be suggesting that a normal Christian will have insight into a person's heart and mind; he said "The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment." In this context, Paul that they have the mind of Christ and if you're saying the mind of Christ can search hearts then there is nothing stopping someone else from doing the same. This is called a spiritual gift and maybe you have experienced it before. Ever just "know" something about someone and you turned out to be right? That might have been this.
Thank you for helping make a good case by asking good questions and showing verses that need contextual clarification.
Runningman
Well-known member
But you must admit that there is a point in which something about Jesus was created, the Bible does explicitly say this in Acts 13:33.
Acts 13
33He has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.’
Those "have become your" words above refer to gegennēka procreation.
HELPS Word-studies
1080 gennáō – properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten."
The quote from Psalm 2 is not about birthing Jesus. It is about being made king over the nations
The ruler tells what God decreed and said to him: ‘You are my son, today I have begotten you.’ In its context this refers to the way in which God legitimates the king as his son, in the same way as a father would accept his wife’s child as being really his son and so promise him loving care and protection; the idea of begetting is purely metaphorical
I. Howard Marshall, Acts: An Introduction and Commentary, InterVarsity Press, 1980, 240.
That was a nice attempt but you interpreted the passage in a fashion that made no sense. If you think you have some novel interpretation that everyone should follow, you should first check if there is a better understanding than you have. Otherwise, you just end up making bad arguments.
Sure. The people this was shared with would know the context of the Psalm. If a person does not know the context but tries to use the verse, we call that a proof text that someone grabs because it sounds like their belief.
Context
Acts 13:33–34 (NASB 2020) — 33 that God has fulfilled this promise to those of us who are the descendants by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE FATHERED YOU.’ 34 As for the fact that He raised Him from the dead, never again to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY AND FAITHFUL MERCIES OF DAVID.’
Concerns the resurrection
Hello
Runningman
Well-known member
I believe since the text uses the word for precreation we need to understand it around this idea. The Scripture states that those in the resurrection become children of God, i.e., sons and daughters of God like Jesus became in Acts 13:33.
Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.
In the resurrection, Jesus was changed into something he previously was not as Paul taught regarding resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
So yes it does refer to becoming a new creation. Jesus was created in every sense of the word, given his eternal life, raised to power, etc just like others will be according to Scripture.
Runningman
Well-known member
It clearly says "today" I have become your Father. Jesus become the definitive first begotten Son of God at his resurrection. Yes, Jesus was also God's begotten Son in a human sense, but in his resurrection is when he also become Son of God in that sense as well.
Romans 1
4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yes and it refers to the resurrection, But BTW the phrase/word appears before Acts 13.
Never does it refer however to Christ coming into existence from a nonexistent state
Except as the Word he always existed and was uncreated
I'm not sure why you want to neglect the context of Psalm 2 and what the significance is for Jews that heard this. I hope this is only due to lack of exegetical skills, even when your error is pointed out. And then you try to connect it with 1 Cor 15 which does not help explain Acts 13.
I can understand that you are trying to figure out the text and you naturally try to fit the text to your view of scripture. However, you need to have some guidance from commentaries so you are not making so many mistakes. If you can make a good argument against the finding in a commentary, then try it out. But accept criticism when your argument is wrong.
It does not fit his doctrine. Acts13 does nothing to show Jesus/the Word was a created being
John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
