Runningman
Well-known member
Reads like you're wanting me to say specific words to answer your question. Please clarify what you think I am dodging exactly and what specifically you want me to answer.
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
Yes the evasion is a constant here it seems
sounds like a plan to me.
Runningman
Well-known member
Thank you for your blessing Admin!sounds like a plan to me.
civic
Well-known member
We hope you stay as long as you want.Thank you for your blessing Admin!
Peterlag
Well-known member
This idea that Jesus willingly let go and “emptied himself" is not taught in Scripture...
The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible and contradicts the Bible and the laws of nature that God set up. Nothing can be 100% of two different things. Jesus cannot be 100% God and 100%man, and that is not a “mystery” but it's a contradiction and a talk of nonsense. A fatal flaw in the “dual nature” theory is that both natures in Jesus would have had to have known about each other. The Jesus God nature would have known about his human nature, and (according to what the Trinitarians teach) his human nature knew he was God, which explains why Trinitarians say Jesus taught that he was God. The book of Hebrews is wrong when it says Jesus was “made like his brothers in every respect” if Jesus knew he was God (Hebrews 2:17). Jesus was not made like other humans in every way if Jesus was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. In fact, he would have been very different from other humans in many respects.
For example, in his God nature he would not have been tempted by anything (James 1:13), and his human part would not have been tempted either since his human nature had access to that same knowledge and assurance. It is written he was tempted in every way like we all are (Hebrews 4:15). Furthermore, God does not have the problems, uncertainty, and anxieties that humans do, and Jesus would not have had those either if he knew he was God. Also, Luke 2:52 says Jesus grew in wisdom, but his human part would have had access to his God part, which would have given him infinite and inherent wisdom. Hebrews says Jesus “learned obedience” by the things that he suffered, but again, the human part of Jesus would have accessed the God part of him and he would not have needed to learn anything.
Kenotic Trinitarians claim that Jesus put off or limited His God nature, but that theology only developed to try to reconcile some of the verses about what Christ experienced on the earth. The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture, and Kenotic Trinitarianism has been rejected by orthodox Trinitarians for exactly that reason. The very simple way to explain the “difficult verses” that Kenotic Trinitarians are trying to explain about Christ’s human experiences is to realize that Jesus was a fully human being, and not both God and man at the same time. Some assert we have to take the Trinity “by faith” but that is not biblical either.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Up at the top of the OP it says...
Home > Forums < Theology < The Trinity <
Jesus denied being God
Peterlag
Well-known member
How many times must I tell you I'm not dodging? I never said a form has a plan. You said that and then you want me to explain you. When I don't you call it dodging.
No one ever accused you of saying form was a plan
The issue is the word of John 1:1
You guys have been saying the word is impersonal - a Plan
Well Phil 2:6 is speaking of that word
So how is what we see in the passage (phil 2:6) consistent with a plan
Philippians 2:5–7 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Does a plan have a mind?
Does a plan think?
Can a plan exist in the form of God?.
Can a plan make itself of no reputation?
MTMattie
Active member
567 replies to this thread brings back to "
"Jesus denied being God"
How about switching to another subject. Like if we Sunday worship we are doomed...
Or
When in your walk of faith is it proper to be baptised....
Or
What is the role, if any, of women preaching/teaching....
Ooh, ooh... (In Horshacks best accent)
I forgot a biggie.... (Borrowed from another forum....)
OR
Are you an young earther or and old earther?
I just want to see how far we do disagree on things... and anyone else as well. Because the same people are saying the same things and no one is going to change.
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There are other threads for that
Peterlag
Well-known member
Okay here's my take on Baptism...
Water baptism is a carryover from part of the Levitical Law. There are many examples of people in the Old Testament who would wash themselves with water as a final step to being clean. Water baptism was an outward sign of washing, and then you would be clean to God. Baptism in water, and the need to be circumcised passed away with the coming of Pentecost, as did the other Levitical Laws. To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.
It's clear from the gospels that water baptism had to do with the kingdom, which was ministered by John who was known as the Baptizer, and not a minister for the Church of God. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ, who would baptize them not with material water, but with holy spirit, which is “power from on high.” From the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards.
In the epistles written just a little bit past the beginning of the New Testament is where we read the only time water baptism is mentioned is to note there is no more need for it, and that we are now to be baptized with holy spirit. And this is why in Acts 2:38, Peter commands “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” In Acts 8:16, Peter and John “baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In Acts 10:48, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” In Romans 6:3, it declares “that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.” There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established. To suggest water baptism has anything to do with the only begotten resurrected Son of God, who is functioning within the New Testament as the head of the body of Christ, has led to nothing but confusion and has provided a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces.
Besides post 567 is not the last post in the thread
There is no biblical support for that claim
and Most commentators refer to it as reference the creation at the beginning of all things or even before that
In the beginning] That is, before any thing was formed—ere God began the great work of creation. This is the meaning of the word in Gen. 1:1, to which the evangelist evidently alludes
Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 5, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 511.
1. In the beginning—of all time and created existence, for this Word gave it being (Jn 1:3, 10); therefore, “before the world was” (Jn 17:5, 24); or, from all eternity.
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 127.
In the beginning (ἐν ἀρχῃ [en archēi]). Ἀρχη [Archē] is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew be reshith [bərēʾšîṯ; בְּרֵאשִׁית] in Gen. 1:1. But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 1:1.
. In the beginning. This expression is used also in Ge. 1:1. To that place John evidently has allusion here, and means to apply to “the Word” an expression which is there applied to God. In both places it clearly means “before creation,” “before the world was made,” “when as yet there was nothing.” The meaning is, that the Word had an existence before the world was created.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 173.
etc
Runningman
Well-known member
We should ask ourselves important questions and maintain our critical thinking.
The beginning of what? The context matches the beginning of Jesus' ministry in John 1,1 Hebrews 1:1, and 1 John 1:1. I'll explain why.
There is no mention of a "Word who was God with God" in Genesis 1. The major clue is in John 1:9 in which the "true Light" was coming into the world (present tense) which would have placed Jesus at the age of 30 years old. That's was the beginning of Jesus' ministry. Hold that thought.
Check 1 John 1:1-3 where the Word of life is described as a thing that was the disciples could see, hear, and touch. The intangible word of God is spoken of in Scripture as something that can be touched (2 Timothy 2:15) and even tasted (Hebrews 6:4-6) so what was from the beginning (of Jesus' ministry) is something that manifested in Jesus, not someone that incarnated as Jesus.
Hebrews 1:1-2, is a very similar situation as above. God spoke through the prophets in the past, but did not speak through the Son until these last days. Therefore speaking through the Son isn't how God spoke in times past. Therefore God didn't create the universe through the Word in the beginning since Hebrews 1:1-2 contradicts that idea.
Given the multitude of contradictions in the Trinitarian theology of the Word, I am forced to look at alternate interpretations that preserve Scriptural integrity.
Sorry no it does not
John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
The creation of all things clearly points to Gen 1. The bible does not say he recreated all things and nothing was recreated apart from him that came into being. Nor is it true. He did not recreate all things,
Runningman
Well-known member
I have the better interpretation because mine is plausible at least. I will admit the Bible can be vague at times, but your claims are not even in the Bible. Where is the "Word with God" in Genesis in the beginning? Wow, that's a HUGE oversight to not actually include that in Scripture if it were true, but since they didn't include it then what your saying is probably false or applies different in a different context of the beginning of something else, such as the beginning of Jesus' ministry.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus assumed the prerogatives of Yahweh. He claimed to have control over mans eternal destiny (John 8:24, Luke 12:8-9, John 5:22, 27-29)
Jesus claimed to have authority over the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5)
Jesus claimed to have the power to answer prayer (John 14:13-14, Acts 7:59, 9:10-17)
Jesus claimed and to have the right to receive worship and faith due to God alone (Matthew 21:16, John 14:1, John 5:23).
Jesus claimed to forgive sins, something only God could do and the Jews knew this to be true. (Mark 2:5-11)
Jesus also called God's angels (Luke 12:8-9, 15:10) His angels (Matthew 13:41, 24:30-31)
Jesus called God's elect (Luke 18:7, Rom. 8:33) His elect (Matthew 24:30-31)
Jesus called God's kingdom (Matthew 12:28, Mark 1:15, Luke 4:43, John 3:3) His kingdom (Matthew 13:41, Luke 1:33).
The Lord's favorite description of Himself was "Son of Man" (cf. Matthew 8:20; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:22; John 9:35-37, etc.). Although that title seems to stress His humanity, it also speaks of His deity. Jesus' use of the term derives from Daniel 7:13-14, where the Son of Man is on equal terms with God the Father, the Ancient of Days.
Son of God- just as the son of man in most cases emphasizes Jesus humanity the title Son of God emphasizes His Deity. He has the same nature as His Father which is Divine. gty.org
Jesus claimed to be God. John 8:24,58, Revelation 1:8,17; 22:13
The Apostles called Him God- Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1,11; 1 John 5:20
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Nothing vague below from Scripture- Christ is YHWH
Jesus is the Lord in Joel, Isaiah and Jeremiah
Joel 2:27-32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
Paul quotes Joel below and says it is Jesus who is the Lord(YHWH) whom all will call upon
Romans 10:9-13 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of C all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,
The whole earth is full of His glory."
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,
5"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;,
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
Below John says Isaiah saw His ( Jesus the Son's ) glory. This was the only time the prophet Isaiah saw the Lord ( YHWH )
John 12:41
These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him
Isaiah 45:21-24Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 " Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
Now Paul quotes Isaiah about YHWH and declares it is Jesus(YHWH) whom all will bow before,
Philippians 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jeremiah 17:10 the Lord says
"I the LORD search the heart, I test the mind. Even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings"
In Revelation 2:23 Jesus says
"I am He who searches the minds and hearts and I will give to each one of you according to your works"
So if Jesus is not God why would he claim to do something in Revelation that Yahweh claimed in Jeremiah?
So is it Yahweh or Jesus who searches hearts and minds?
The only name that can possibly be above all names is the name of YHWH. This means that Jesus shares the personal name and authority of YHWH, making Him God Himself as no one can be equal to God except God alone.
hope this helps !!!
MTMattie
Active member
Okay, lets just assume that you are correct.
What was the purpose of Jesus in Math 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Not a word about baptizing only until the Resurrection.
OR
What was the purpose of Jesus being baptised himself?
Absolutely baptism with the Holy Spirit is fundamentally the most important....
