"Thomas answered and said unto Him..." (John 20:28)
One does not necessarily negate the other.
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
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"Thomas answered and said unto Him..." (John 20:28)
One does not necessarily negate the other.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
I don't deny this. Jesus did receive some formal training in order to be called "Rabbi."
And He might have been a Pharisee, too. His teaching is closer to Pharisaic teaching rather than Sadduceeic teaching.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
There is nothing said about "non-Hebrew Gentiles." and to add - or trying to add Gentiles - breaks and violates Scripture.
The only people in salvation covenant with God are Abraham and his seed, the children of Israel.
Non-Hebrew Gentiles are NOT in covenant with God.
Mixed heritage Hebrews would still be Abraham's seed, but not non-Hebrew Gentiles.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Ya think maybe someone should a or would a told YHWH, God the Father?
Hebrews 1:
6. And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
(His firstborn would be Jesus)
7. And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
8. But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. (Do not miss the fact of the Father speaking of the Son)
And do NOT raise up that sacrilegious piece of poppycock called the New World Translation. (Which is not inspired from God the Father)
I am just waiting until some stupid woke person comes along with a translation that somehow makes Jesus into a she.
Then... no words will be held back me.
MTMattie
Well-known member
He cannot change. He has been blinded and made deaf. That is why he cannot realize what the written word truly says.
Oj, yes, he is well seasoned in trinity debates.
Keeps cookie cuttering his points that are not copy and pasted.
Accuses other of offering bits and pieces from the Holy book when he is guilty of more often or not , just posting a random thought without
specific reference, or cherry picking a word hither and yon.
MTMattie
Well-known member
@Peterlag
You cannot see and you cannot hear for even within the pages of theoften heretical translations of the Jehova Witness' bible the New World Translation https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/43/20#study=discover
Even they got this right. See especially the bolded red below.
John:
20 On the first day of the week, Mary Magʹda·lene came to the tomb early,+ while it was still dark, and she saw that the stone had already been taken away from the tomb.+ 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and to the other disciple, for whom Jesus had affection,+ and she said to them: “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb,+ and we do not know where they have laid him.”
3 Then Peter and the other disciple set out for the tomb. 4 The two of them began running together, but the other disciple ran faster than Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 Stooping forward, he saw the linen cloths lying there,+ but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter also came, following him, and he went into the tomb. And he saw the linen cloths lying there. 7 The cloth that had been on his head was not lying with the other cloth bands but was rolled up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple who had reached the tomb first also went in, and he saw and believed. 9 For they did not yet understand the scripture that he must rise from the dead.+ 10 So the disciples went back to their homes.
11 Mary, however, kept standing outside near the tomb, weeping. While she was weeping, she stooped forward to look into the tomb, 12 and she saw two angels+ in white sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and one at the feet. 13 And they said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them: “They have taken my Lord away, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 After saying this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.+ 15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, thinking it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” On turning around, she said to him in Hebrew: “Rab·boʹni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers+ and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father+ and your Father and to my God+ and your God.’” 18 Mary Magʹda·lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her.+
19 When it was late that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.”+ 20 After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side.+ Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord.+ 21 Jesus said to them again: “May you have peace.+ Just as the Father has sent me,+ I also am sending you.”+ 22 After saying this he blew on them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit.+ 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained.”
24 But Thomas,+ one of the Twelve,+ who was called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print* of the nails and stick my hand into his side,+ I will never believe it.”+
26 Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said: “May you have peace.”+ 27 Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting* but believe.” 28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”+ 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe.”+
You cannot see and you cannot hear for even within the pages of theoften heretical translations of the Jehova Witness' bible the New World Translation https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/43/20#study=discover
Even they got this right. See especially the bolded red below.
John:
20 On the first day of the week, Mary Magʹda·lene came to the tomb early,+ while it was still dark, and she saw that the stone had already been taken away from the tomb.+ 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and to the other disciple, for whom Jesus had affection,+ and she said to them: “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb,+ and we do not know where they have laid him.”
3 Then Peter and the other disciple set out for the tomb. 4 The two of them began running together, but the other disciple ran faster than Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 Stooping forward, he saw the linen cloths lying there,+ but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter also came, following him, and he went into the tomb. And he saw the linen cloths lying there. 7 The cloth that had been on his head was not lying with the other cloth bands but was rolled up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple who had reached the tomb first also went in, and he saw and believed. 9 For they did not yet understand the scripture that he must rise from the dead.+ 10 So the disciples went back to their homes.
11 Mary, however, kept standing outside near the tomb, weeping. While she was weeping, she stooped forward to look into the tomb, 12 and she saw two angels+ in white sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and one at the feet. 13 And they said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them: “They have taken my Lord away, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 After saying this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.+ 15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, thinking it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” On turning around, she said to him in Hebrew: “Rab·boʹni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers+ and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father+ and your Father and to my God+ and your God.’” 18 Mary Magʹda·lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her.+
19 When it was late that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.”+ 20 After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side.+ Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord.+ 21 Jesus said to them again: “May you have peace.+ Just as the Father has sent me,+ I also am sending you.”+ 22 After saying this he blew on them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit.+ 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained.”
24 But Thomas,+ one of the Twelve,+ who was called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print* of the nails and stick my hand into his side,+ I will never believe it.”+
26 Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said: “May you have peace.”+ 27 Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting* but believe.” 28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”+ 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe.”+
101G
Well-known member
it's amazing when confronted with the TRUTH/LIGHT, men still love ignorance/darkness. well the Lord Jesus authored a letter to the church in Thyatira, out of his own MOUTH he declared himself God. Revelation 2:23 "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
he, the Lord Jesus said, "I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts" is this what God Almighty do? Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."
well if any human can do this step forward.
in much GL.
101G
he, the Lord Jesus said, "I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts" is this what God Almighty do? Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."
well if any human can do this step forward.
in much GL.
101G
Someone of your depth of study should not have made the error you have done here.
If you check the parallel passages (Mark 2:1–12; Luke 5:17–26), those only convey the amazement of the Jews. The description of the people's view is not presenting an authoritative opinion of the people, merely their surprise. Jesus spoke only of himself as the one with this power. So again you twist this from being a single demonstration of Jesus' power to one of some general power. Worse, you would be saying that some undefined part of humanity has that power to forgive sins or even that all people have that power. So you just advocate a non-specific group of people with this authority, which is hardly basis to contrive your doctrine from.
Complete
Well-known member
'But I say unto you,
That every idle word that men shall speak,
they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified,
and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.'
(Mat 12:36)
Hello there, @Runningman,
I believe in the deity of Christ.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Peterlag
Well-known member
The bottom line is... Thomas is not a teaching on the trinity. In fact, there's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Ephesians 3:3-6
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Peterlag
Well-known member
The bottom line is Thomas is not a teaching on the trinity. In fact, there's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The bottom line is Thomas is not a teaching on the trinity. In fact, there's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
He is referring to Jesus as God which supports the Trinity.
Okay. Per Peterlag, the Trinity only exists if Thomas said "My Lord and My God and for those who have not heard elsewhere let me say spontaneously that you Jesus are one of the Trinitarian essence of God." and You Peterlag are denying the testimony of Thomas in order to deny the deity of Christ. I prefer what scripture tells us rather than what you pretend to be lack of evidence of Jesus' deity.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Can we for sake of conversation leave Thomas out of this at the moment.
Can you explain why Jesus said to go baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
Jesus taught that His disciples were to baptize others in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19).
And before you bring it up.... or claim I am chooseing bits and pieces....
We need to be aware of why in Acts 2:38, the apostle Peter taught that those who believed were to be baptized in Jesus' name. The apostles taught, "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
So which is true.....?
Be aware that a person who is baptized in Jesus' name is someone who has believed in Jesus as Savior. This shortened version stated in Acts 2 and 4 did not negate what Jesus taught, but rather emphasized salvation exclusively in Jesus. The practice of the early church was to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit as Jesus taught, emphasizing the Triune nature of God.
And what the early church did was based on what Jesus taught..... in Matt 28:19.
So Jesus was emphasizing the Triune nature of God.
God made you tripartite. You are a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body. They all are you, but I am certain you don't have on your driver's license for name... Peterlag Body, Peterlag Soul, Peterlag Spirit.
First there would not be enough room.... but, LOL... it sure would give a new meaning to the "real ID".
WHEN in you life did someone ever say "come meet" Peterlag Body, Peterlag Soul, Peterlag Spirit.
Even thought they are you. You are introduced as simply Peterlag , or possibly Mr. Peterlag . But each part of you has their own "job" so to speak and you all are one.
Why can you not understand that there is no need to mention the Trinity in the Holy Book when you see that each part has a job. For you and for me and everyone reading this... Jesus is the most important
for us in the bible because if He never came to earth then we all would eventually cease to exist .... hence the baptism in Acts, also all are for us hence the baptism in Matthew.
God the Father sent Jesus to teach about salvation. That is not the Holy Spirits job and God the Father cannot come to earth as a spirit, for he only appeared to Moses..... he did not mingle as Jesus did.
Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus could not inherently give eternal life as Scripture states. He had to be granted that authority. So Jesus was given the power to do something he could not do before and he became a life-giving spirit when he previously was not. That's proof that Jesus isn't God because eternal life comes from God in the first place.
John 17 (KJV)
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
1 Corinthians 15 (KJV)
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Runningman
Well-known member
I didn't make an interpretation. Did you read Matthew 96:-8? It is plain about the only power mentioned in the context as something that was given to the men (Jesus included) by God.
Matthew 9
6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7And he arose, and departed to his house. 8But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
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Runningman
Well-known member
You haven't read Daniel 7 it seems. Daniel 7:13 is the proof text for the Son of man not being the Ancient of days.
Verse 18,22,27 says, in the KJV says that the kingdom, power, and authority belongs to the people. This means that since the son of man posseses the same thing as the saints of the Most High, then the son of man himself is one of the saints, not the Ancient of days or God Himself. Daniel 7 is a mighty chapter against the deity of Jesus.
Daniel 7
18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
...
22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
...
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
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