Jesus denied being God

Is Rubenstein an authority on the subject? What authority does Rubenstein possess?

Is Rubenstein a Christian? We know Bart isn't. Richard E. Rubenstein is a "attorney" that likes to sell books. No needs to waste their time on reading from either men. Ehrman is disgruntled with what he sees as the "failures of God" to allow evil in this life.
Both are historians.
 
God is not a creature and does not share His glory with anyone.
I wonder if Peterlag's use of that term reflects his underlying belief since most of us would use the term exclusive of God. Doesn't "creature" mean a created one rather than the Creator? It is a bit different when we speak of God's nature since we apply that term equally to created things and to the essence of something. Oops. Almost missed noting that the word "nature" has the original sense as "birth" #link etymonline.com nature.
 
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The verse you quoted does not say anything about equally.
bald denial

John 5:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

and we have an example in scripture

Revelation 5:6–14 (NASB 2020) — 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation. 10 You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.” 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.” 13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
 
bald denial

John 5:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

and we have an example in scripture

Revelation 5:6–14 (NASB 2020) — 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation. 10 You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.” 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.” 13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
I can be honored just as my father can be. That does not make us the same or that his honored is the same as mine. I can honor God as God and I can honor Jesus as the Christ.
 
I can be honored just as my father can be. That does not make us the same or that his honored is the same as mine. I can honor God as God and I can honor Jesus as the Christ.
Stick to the point

Jesus the lamb is honored as is the Father

bald denial

John 5:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

and we have an example in scripture

Revelation 5:6–14 (NASB 2020) — 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation. 10 You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.” 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.” 13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
 
Stick to the point

Jesus the lamb is honored as is the Father

bald denial

John 5:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

and we have an example in scripture

Revelation 5:6–14 (NASB 2020) — 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation. 10 You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.” 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.” 13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
It says honor the Son just as they honor the Father. It does not say honor the son as the Father. You always have to put that little twist on it.
 
It says honor the Son just as they honor the Father. It does not say honor the son as the Father. You always have to put that little twist on it.
Duh. How come you state something obvious as if it makes a point for you? Jesus is not the Father and thus is not honored as being the father. You are stating a point we already know. But you cannot honor the Father except that your honor Christ. This is not quite the equivalent as a paraphrase but is still important to understand. The effect is to give the highest honor to Christ, not the sort of honor that could be given to a man.
So many of the arguments appear as if Peterlag does not understand what the Trinity is describing.
 
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It says honor the Son just as they honor the Father. It does not say honor the son as the Father. You always have to put that little twist on it.
I did not say nor do I hold the son is the Father

I do say they are to be honored equally

John 5:16–23 (KJV 1900) — 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


The reason being whatever the Father does, the son does

and we have an example of the Father and the son receiving the same worship and praise

Revelation 5:13–14 (NASB 2020) — 13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
 
I did not say nor do I hold the son is the Father

I do say they are to be honored equally

John 5:16–23 (KJV 1900) — 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


The reason being whatever the Father does, the son does

and we have an example of the Father and the son receiving the same worship and praise

Revelation 5:13–14 (NASB 2020) — 13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
I don't see an example from Revelation. I stay out of the book because I believe just about most Christians worldwide have no idea what they are talking about when quoting the book of Revelation. The book is mostly written concerning Israel and all the Christians think it involves them and it does not. It's written with a whole bunch of figures of speech and customs that folks just don't understand. All terms for the word King, Lord, and God mean only the God of the Old Testament. So I'm not even going to go into that book. So I can't comment on it.
 
Duh. How come you state something obvious as if it makes a point for you? Jesus is not the Father and thus is not honored as being the father. You are stating a point we already know. But you cannot honor the Father except that your honor Christ. This is not quite the equivalent as a paraphrase but is still important to understand. The effect is to give the highest honor to Christ, not the sort of honor that could be given to a man.
So many of the arguments appear as if Peterlag does not understand what the Trinity is describing.
I have went past this honoring who is God and who is Jesus. I have locked right into both of them. It's the Christ that I am fellowshipping with to the end that I am moving back and forth with him and thereby able to have a relationship with him. This is new to me because the concept is to not ask God for much. Also, and this is huge: I no longer try to get God or Jesus Christ to work with me or to get close to me. I now spend much of my time right inside the spirit as close as I can get right in their face. The Greek word menō translated "abide" often deals with being in him, which I'm very concerned about when it comes to walking in Christ, which I believe is the same as walking in the spirit. To be in him or to abide in him deals with remaining or continuing to be present. To dwell, live, and be within him to the end that we are operative in him by his divine influence and energy. My first red flag that started me looking into how to do this was when I realized it's the Catholics that teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach that we should look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.
 
I don't see an example from Revelation. I stay out of the book because I believe just about most Christians worldwide have no idea what they are talking about when quoting the book of Revelation. The book is mostly written concerning Israel and all the Christians think it involves them and it does not. It's written with a whole bunch of figures of speech and customs that folks just don't understand. All terms for the word King, Lord, and God mean only the God of the Old Testament. So I'm not even going to go into that book. So I can't comment on it.
Well excuse me, but your opinion carries no weight with me

and I find your objection irrelevant. What is worship for Israelites is worship for non Israelites

I believe anyone can see equal worship here

Revelation 5:11–14 (NASB 2020) — 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.” 13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
 
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said... Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God. The Epistles would have writings like Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ. And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.
 
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said... Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God. The Epistles would have writings like Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ. And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.
Spamming?

John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And you do not believe it
 
Spamming?

John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And you do not believe it
I can say that in my beginning there was my word, and my word was with me, and my word was me. And that does not make my words a living thing. Only a fool would think my words were another me.
 
I can say that in my beginning there was my word, and my word was with me, and my word was me. And that does not make my words a living thing. Only a fool would think my words were another me.
You are just a non-living word? It did cross my mind that you were a verbal bot. This confirms it. 😜
 
It says Word. Words are not living things. I should not have to tell you this. We teach children in first grade that words are not alive.
Then how can you say that "my word was me" if you are a living being? We teach children in the first grade that words are not alive. I should not have to tell you that.
 
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