Jesus denied being God

[Peterlag]

The life of Jesus, and the subsequent persecution of Christians during the Roman Empire, have come to define what many of us know about early Christianity. The fervent debate, civil strife, and bloody riots within the Christian community as it was forming, however, is a story that is rarely told. Richard E. Rubenstein takes readers to the streets of the Roman Empire during the fourth century, where a divisive argument over the divinity of Jesus Christ was underway. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer feared for the survival of their monotheistic faith, but they found themselves in different camps—led by two charismatic men—on the topic of Christian theology. Arius, an Alexandrian priest and poet, preached that Jesus, though holy, is less than God, while Athanasius, a brilliant and violent bishop, saw any diminution of Jesus' godhead as the work of the devil. Between them stood Alexander, the powerful Bishop of Alexandria, in search of a solution that would keep the empire united and the Christian faith alive.



Here's another one. Two different books...

How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee is a book by American New Testament scholar Bart D. Ehrman. Published on March 25, 2014, by Harper One, the book contends that the historical Jesus did not claim to be divine, nor was he worshipped as such during his life; rather, his status as God the Son in the Trinity in Christian doctrine developed in the years following his crucifixion.[1][2]

Overview​

In How Jesus Became God, Ehrman argues that the historical Jesus did not claim divinity and was not worshipped as divine during his lifetime. Instead, the belief in Jesus as divine arose shortly after his crucifixion, and that the belief in Jesus as God the Son, an incarnation of God and the second divine person (or "prosopon") in the Trinity in Christian doctrine, developed in the following centuries.[1][2][3]

 

[civic]

When he said I was before Abraham he was saying this thing is all about me long before Abraham was around. He was not saying he was physically here.

The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do myown will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.


hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

He is eternal without beginning

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses say that he is before all things.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

 

[civic]

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in this passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

The life of Jesus, and the subsequent persecution of Christians during the Roman Empire, have come to define what many of us know about early Christianity. The fervent debate, civil strife, and bloody riots within the Christian community as it was forming, however, is a story that is rarely told. Richard E. Rubenstein takes readers to the streets of the Roman Empire during the fourth century, where a divisive argument over the divinity of Jesus Christ was underway. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer feared for the survival of their monotheistic faith, but they found themselves in different camps—led by two charismatic men—on the topic of Christian theology. Arius, an Alexandrian priest and poet, preached that Jesus, though holy, is less than God, while Athanasius, a brilliant and violent bishop, saw any diminution of Jesus' godhead as the work of the devil. Between them stood Alexander, the powerful Bishop of Alexandria, in search of a solution that would keep the empire united and the Christian faith alive.

View attachment 1018

Here's another one. Two different books...

How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee is a book by American New Testament scholar Bart D. Ehrman. Published on March 25, 2014, by Harper One, the book contends that the historical Jesus did not claim to be divine, nor was he worshipped as such during his life; rather, his status as God the Son in the Trinity in Christian doctrine developed in the years following his crucifixion.[1][2]

Overview​

In How Jesus Became God, Ehrman argues that the historical Jesus did not claim divinity and was not worshipped as divine during his lifetime. Instead, the belief in Jesus as divine arose shortly after his crucifixion, and that the belief in Jesus as God the Son, an incarnation of God and the second divine person (or "prosopon") in the Trinity in Christian doctrine, developed in the following centuries.[1][2][3]

View attachment 1020

​

The continued spread of the Arian Heresy (that Jesus is not God) in JW and Unitarian Churches.​

It's really frustrating that the Arian heresy (that Jesus is not God) is alive and spreading in many churches today. Arianism was exterminated many centuries ago. Saint Athanasius of Alexandria spearheaded the anti-Arian cause. In fact, most of the Church was Arian leaning at that time. It's only by the Grace of God, through warriors like Saint Athanasius and ratified by Church Councils, that the Church was not totally overcome by Arianism. Again, it's really frustrating that people do not consult history but instead are content to reopen viral-laden blasphemous old heresies like Arianism. If anyone is interested in this topic please tell me and I can forward more information on Saint Athanasius' victory against the Arians.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-continued-spread-of-the-arian-heresy-that-jesus-is-not-god-in-jw-and-unitarian-churches.253/post-5111

 

[mikesw]

Oops. Not responding to you yet.

​

The continued spread of the Arian Heresy (that Jesus is not God) in JW and Unitarian Churches.​

It's really frustrating that the Arian heresy (that Jesus is not God) is alive and spreading in many churches today. Arianism was exterminated many centuries ago. Saint Athanasius of Alexandria spearheaded the anti-Arian cause. In fact, most of the Church was Arian leaning at that time. It's only by the Grace of God, through warriors like Saint Athanasius and ratified by Church Councils, that the Church was not totally overcome by Arianism. Again, it's really frustrating that people do not consult history but instead are content to reopen viral-laden blasphemous old heresies like Arianism. If anyone is interested in this topic please tell me and I can forward more information on Saint Athanasius' victory against the Arians.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-continued-spread-of-the-arian-heresy-that-jesus-is-not-god-in-jw-and-unitarian-churches.253/post-5111

I could see how people less in-depth in scripture could miss the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. I have recently realized that people who read the bible for quick ideas or inspiration need to avoid making doctrine. I have even felt that scholars should not write commentaries on scripture until they have matured to a high level so they are not creating commentaries representing their settled understanding. (And if it is settled too early, they likely are not examining the scripture sufficiently.)

 

[TomL]

In the Old Testament humans called out to God. In the New Testament humans call out to God and many times to Jesus Christ.

Honoring them the same

Something you fail to do and thus fail to honor the father

John 5:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

 

[synergy]

I could see how people less in-depth in scripture could miss the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. I have recently realized that people who read the bible for quick ideas or inspiration need to avoid making doctrine. I have even felt that scholars should not write commentaries on scripture until they have matured to a high level so they are not creating commentaries representing their settled understanding. (And if it is settled too early, they likely are not examining the scripture sufficiently.)

Those who have little to no understanding of history are prone to repeat the same old viral laden heresies that attacked the Early Church. We see that over and over again with Judaizing Unitarians, Modalists, and Arians like JWs.

 

[civic]

I could see how people less in-depth in scripture could miss the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. I have recently realized that people who read the bible for quick ideas or inspiration need to avoid making doctrine. I have even felt that scholars should not write commentaries on scripture until they have matured to a high level so they are not creating commentaries representing their settled understanding. (And if it is settled too early, they likely are not examining the scripture sufficiently.)

It’s easy to be persuaded into false doctrine / heresy by a pastor, preacher or theologian if one is not well grounded in the faith.

 

[civic]

Those who have little to no understanding of history are prone to repeat the same old viral laden heresies that attacked the Early Church. We see that over and over again with Judaizing Unitarians, Modalists, and Arians like JWs.

Ditto. There was a time early on in my Christian life where I was struggling and Modalism was appealing. This caused me to dig in deeper and finally I rejected the idea. As you know I came out of Calvinism after 40 years of believing it was true. We can all be deceived at times and believe the wrong things about God.

 

[synergy]

Ditto. There was a time early on in my Christian life where I was struggling and Modalism was appealing. This caused me to dig in deeper and finally I rejected the idea. As you know I came out of Calvinism after 40 years of believing it was true. We can all be deceived at times and believe the wrong things about God.

Calvinism is very much related to the old heresies that attacked the human will. Monothelitism is one of those heresies that attacks the human will.

 

[civic]

Calvinism is very much related to the old heresies that attacked the human will. Monothelitism is one of those heresies that attacks the human will.

I haven’t looked at it before from that perspective I’ll have to check it out, thanks for the tip brother

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes it is. But my advertising agent has control of that. So any questions and I will have to ask him.

Advertising agent?

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

 

[Peterlag]

Honoring them the same

Something you fail to do and thus fail to honor the father

John 5:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Seems to be talking about 2 different creatures in the verse you quote above.

 

[civic]

Seems to be talking about 2 different creatures in the verse you quote above.

God is not a creature and does not share His glory with anyone.

 

[Peterlag]

God is not a creature and does not share His glory with anyone.

What is God if not a living being also known in English as a creature? And to have Jesus worshiped along with God is not God sharing His glory. It's God being glorified.

 

[TomL]

Seems to be talking about 2 different creatures in the verse you quote above.

Ignoring the point

You are to honor the son as you honor the Father

John 5:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


You fail to do so and thus fail to honor the Father properly

 

[Peterlag]

Ignoring the point

You are to honor the son as you honor the Father

John 5:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


You fail to do so and thus fail to honor the Father properly

What point am I ignoring? The verse mentions 2 different creatures. God and Jesus. And both can be worshiped.

 

[TomL]

What point am I ignoring? The verse mentions 2 different creatures. God and Jesus. And both can be worshiped.

Are you going to claim You worship Jesus as you worship the Father?

equally?

 

[praise_yeshua]

The life of Jesus, and the subsequent persecution of Christians during the Roman Empire, have come to define what many of us know about early Christianity. The fervent debate, civil strife, and bloody riots within the Christian community as it was forming, however, is a story that is rarely told. Richard E. Rubenstein takes readers to the streets of the Roman Empire during the fourth century, where a divisive argument over the divinity of Jesus Christ was underway. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer feared for the survival of their monotheistic faith, but they found themselves in different camps—led by two charismatic men—on the topic of Christian theology. Arius, an Alexandrian priest and poet, preached that Jesus, though holy, is less than God, while Athanasius, a brilliant and violent bishop, saw any diminution of Jesus' godhead as the work of the devil. Between them stood Alexander, the powerful Bishop of Alexandria, in search of a solution that would keep the empire united and the Christian faith alive.

View attachment 1018

Here's another one. Two different books...

How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee is a book by American New Testament scholar Bart D. Ehrman. Published on March 25, 2014, by Harper One, the book contends that the historical Jesus did not claim to be divine, nor was he worshipped as such during his life; rather, his status as God the Son in the Trinity in Christian doctrine developed in the years following his crucifixion.[1][2]

Overview​

In How Jesus Became God, Ehrman argues that the historical Jesus did not claim divinity and was not worshipped as divine during his lifetime. Instead, the belief in Jesus as divine arose shortly after his crucifixion, and that the belief in Jesus as God the Son, an incarnation of God and the second divine person (or "prosopon") in the Trinity in Christian doctrine, developed in the following centuries.[1][2][3]

View attachment 1020

Is Rubenstein an authority on the subject? What authority does Rubenstein possess?

Is Rubenstein a Christian? We know Bart isn't. Richard E. Rubenstein is a "attorney" that likes to sell books. No needs to waste their time on reading from either men. Ehrman is disgruntled with what he sees as the "failures of God" to allow evil in this life.