Jesus denied being God

[TomL]

All Heretics have a bag of excuses that they will reach into to attempt to blunt the word of God. Examples are: that's a metaphoric statement, that's meant for someone else, you don't understand, how dare you think that, etc ..

In other words, they are just not willing to believe the truth

 

[synergy]

In other words, they are just not willing to believe the truth

That is correct. You might then ask what's the value of even talking to them. The value I see is that we can extract all the venom that's within them and use that to find cures for those who are open to the truth. Also, the audience will be able to see how their approach is futile at best. Those are the 2 benefits I see. There may be more.

 

[TomL]

That is correct. You might then ask what's the value of even talking to them. The value I see is that we can extract all the venom that's within them and use that to find cures for those who are open to the truth. Also, the audience will be able to see how their approach is futile at best. Those are the 2 benefits I see. There may be more.

Let us make sure the audience is not deceived by their doctrine

 

[Runningman]

Because there's no trinity and because I know the New Testament so well is how I know there's no teaching about a trinity. Nowhere and this is why I can answer every trinity question. But these folks are not looking for answers. They are looking to prove their point. If you do not see their point then they say you are running from the question. Or you have not answered. etc.

I think of Trinitarianism as a classic horse-before-the-cart scenario. It's completely backwards and it can't be justified. Trinitarianism begins with a doctrine and then it hunts for scripture to support it. Basically, it tells one what to believe even though the Bible doesn't say to believe it. After that, they decorate it with Bible verses and claim they mean what their doctrine states. I think some might just find it unfathomable that what we know as the modern day church has essentially been, for the most part, infiltrated with propaganda. It's a sleight of hand and a lot of innocent, well-meaning, people fall for it.

 

[Runningman]

View attachment 979

New York Times bestselling author and Bible expert Bart Ehrman reveals how Jesus’s divinity became dogma in the first few centuries of the early church. The claim at the heart of the Christian faith is that Jesus of Nazareth was, and is, God. But this is not what the original disciples believed during Jesus’s lifetime—and it is not what Jesus claimed about himself. How Jesus Became God tells the story of an idea that shaped Christianity, and of the evolution of a belief that looked very different in the fourth century than it did in the first.

I respect Bart Ehrman and would for sure read that. I want to read The Concessions of Trinitarians: Being a Selection of Extracts from the Writings of the Most Eminent Biblical Critics and Commentators by John Wilson. From the little I've read of it, it seems like a real gem.

 

[Runningman]

I suppose we could embark on another 1900 reply post of comprehension.. but if it is vague to you now, it shall always be.

Ditto.

 

[Peterlag]

View attachment 985
I respect Bart Ehrman and would for sure read that. I want to read The Concessions of Trinitarians: Being a Selection of Extracts from the Writings of the Most Eminent Biblical Critics and Commentators by John Wilson. From the little I've read of it, it seems like a real gem.

Bart is an historian and so he gives you the history on the trinity. It seems to be a time before the popes.

 

[Peterlag]

I think of Trinitarianism as a classic horse-before-the-cart scenario. It's completely backwards and it can't be justified. Trinitarianism begins with a doctrine and then it hunts for scripture to support it. Basically, it tells one what to believe even though the Bible doesn't say to believe it. After that, they decorate it with Bible verses and claim they mean what their doctrine states. I think some might just find it unfathomable that what we know as the modern day church has essentially been, for the most part, infiltrated with propaganda. It's a sleight of hand and a lot of innocent, well-meaning, people fall for it.

I can't help any of them. They have dug in deep and they are convinced they are right.

 

[Peterlag]

That does not deal with Phil 2:5ff

where have you taken up the challenge?

I have dealt with Philippians 2:5 many times. You see something that I don't. I will do it again and the Lord knows I have before. But since you don't understand what I say about the verse is why you keep saying I'm not dealing with it. I am. You are not believing what I write.

The "mind" is the mind of the spirit of Christ that we get when we are born again. It's our new nature. Paul is telling the Christian to live and walk in the spirit. To put on the new man. There's nothing else there in that verse. What on Earth more could anyone say about it?

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

 

[Peterlag]

You never followed up on that statement, only when you were called out on it.

So remember to think twice before throwing a stone.

I'm not trowing stones. I was trying to make you laugh. It's a joke. I say it all the time and people laugh every time.

 

[Peterlag]

What were his arguments? Lay them out so that they can be analyzed.

Better still, does he say anything about the Bible? If so, does he cherry pick verses and pull them out of context?

He's an historian who covers the dates, places, and people who bickered about the trinity. He starts when the Catholics started and that was not when the Apostles were alive. It was around the fourth century. There's no historian records of a trinity until the Catholics invented it.

 

[TomL]

I have dealt with Philippians 2:5 many times. You see something that I don't. I will do it again and the Lord knows I have before. But since you don't understand what I say about the verse is why you keep saying I'm not dealing with it. I am. You are not believing what I write.

The "mind" is the mind of the spirit of Christ that we get when we are born again. It's our new nature. Paul is telling the Christian to live and walk in the spirit. To put on the new man. There's nothing else there in that verse. What on Earth more could anyone say about it?

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

You are still avoiding the point

When He was in the form of God, had he yet taken on human flesh?

If he was an impersonal thing made into a man, could he while an impersonal thing had a mind, and thought

Could he, as an impersonal thing before being made man, demonstrate humility

The issue I raise has nothing to do with us, and you never address that issue

That is called dodging

 

[TomL]

I think of Trinitarianism as a classic horse-before-the-cart scenario. It's completely backwards and it can't be justified. Trinitarianism begins with a doctrine and then it hunts for scripture to support it. Basically, it tells one what to believe even though the Bible doesn't say to believe it. After that, they decorate it with Bible verses and claim they mean what their doctrine states. I think some might just find it unfathomable that what we know as the modern day church has essentially been, for the most part, infiltrated with propaganda. It's a sleight of hand and a lot of innocent, well-meaning, people fall for it.

Utter falsehood

Many proofs for it have been seen, while your reply has been little more than denial and an avoidance of context

 

[Peterlag]

You are still avoiding the point

When He was in the form of God, had he yet taken on human flesh?

If he was an impersonal thing made into a man, could he while an impersonal thing had a mind, and thought

Could he, as an impersonal thing before being made man, demonstrate humility

The issue I raise has nothing to do with us, and you never address that issue

That is called dodging

I am not nor have I ever avoided your point concerning Philippians 2:5. I don't believe what you believe and this I have said many times. Why can't you just be honest and say we believe different. Instead, you blame, accuse, and attack me personally. You want me to accept this nonsense that Jesus was in the form of God and then took on human flesh and then see that concept through your eyes and then say I believe it too and then answer your question of how your mind sees it. When I say Jesus was not in the form of God and he did not take on human flesh. Then you say I'm not dealing with the Scripture.

 

[TomL]

I am not nor have I ever avoided your point concerning Philippians 2:5. I don't believe what you believe and this I have said many times. Why can't you just be honest and say we believe different. Instead, you blame, accuse, and attack me personally. You want me to accept this nonsense that Jesus was in the form of God and then took on human flesh and then see that concept through your eyes and then say I believe it too and then answer your question of how your mind sees it. When I say Jesus was not in the form of God and he did not take on human flesh. Then you say I'm not dealing with the Scripture.

I am completely honest here

You are not dealing with the point i raised

Show Phil 2:5 is consistent with a discription of an impersonal thing

Now you say

"Jesus was not in the form of God and he did not take on human flesh"
Completely ignoring the text

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

and show yourself to be denying the bible

Readers observe what is necessary for those who deny the deity of Christ to indulge in

 

[Runningman]

I can't help any of them. They have dug in deep and they are convinced they are right.

Yes, we will have to root them out of every hole they have planted in. I've observed after they have gone through their typical alleged proofs for the Trinity and they are dealt with they will eventually stop referring to the vast majority of those verses. We will have them confined to a box of no more than 1-5 verses in a matter of years and that's where they will dig their heals in the hardest.

Best place to go after is John 1 which, in my experience, has been one of their last strongholds. I have a lot of experience with this chapter and it's pretty easy to disprove. I may open a thread later if I have time.

 

[civic]

To be fair, the Trinity doesn’t make sense to a lot of Trinitarians, especially the really smart, well-read, and doctorate theologians. It doesn’t make sense to me and I’ve studied it a lot. It’s pretty common to just conclude the Trinity in a mystery and a great number of them are on record saying it is such. It’s been a common thought-terminating cliche to call the Trinity a great mystery for hundreds of years now.

the above is conjecture with nothing to substantiate your claims.

 

[Runningman]

the above is conjecture with nothing to substantiate your claims.

By no means a complete list. There are quotes about the Trinity being a mystery that date back to Athanasius. No conjecture. It's very common for people to just say it's a mystery because it's incomprehensible and doesn't fit into Scripture.

It is commonly said that the Trinity is a mystery. And it certainly is … . But it is not a mystery veiled in darkness in which we can only grope and guess. It is a mystery in which we are given to understand that we will never know all there is of God … . It is not a mystery that keeps us in the dark, but a mystery in which we are taken by the hand and gradually led into the light …
—Eugene Peterson, Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places (Eerdmans, 2005) p. 306

In the deepest mystery of his being, God is an intimate relationship, a fellowship, a community of love.
—Darrell Johnson, Experiencing the Trinity (Regent College Publishing, 2002), p. 51

The Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and life. It is the source of all other mysteries of Christian faith, the light that enlightens them.
—Catechism of the Catholic Church
More than any other Christian doctrine, the Trinity sets before us the mystery of God and points to the element of mystery in every aspect of our faith.
—Stephen Seamands, Ministry in the Image of God (IVP, 2005), p. 100

Seeing mystery…enables us to understand how it provokes reverence, the only possible attitude to what is supreme and final in our lives. It is not a mystery that leaves us dumb and terrified, but one that leaves us happy, singing, and giving thanks. Mystery is like a cliff; we may not be able to scale it, but we can stand at the foot of it, touch it, praise its beauty. So it is with the mystery of the Trinity.
—Leonardo Boff

 

[civic]

By no means a complete list. There are quotes about the Trinity being a mystery that date back to Athanasius. No conjecture. It's very common for people to just say it's a mystery because it's incomprehensible and doesn't fit into Scripture.

It is commonly said that the Trinity is a mystery. And it certainly is … . But it is not a mystery veiled in darkness in which we can only grope and guess. It is a mystery in which we are given to understand that we will never know all there is of God … . It is not a mystery that keeps us in the dark, but a mystery in which we are taken by the hand and gradually led into the light …
—Eugene Peterson, Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places (Eerdmans, 2005) p. 306

In the deepest mystery of his being, God is an intimate relationship, a fellowship, a community of love.
—Darrell Johnson, Experiencing the Trinity (Regent College Publishing, 2002), p. 51

The Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and life. It is the source of all other mysteries of Christian faith, the light that enlightens them.
—Catechism of the Catholic Church
More than any other Christian doctrine, the Trinity sets before us the mystery of God and points to the element of mystery in every aspect of our faith.
—Stephen Seamands, Ministry in the Image of God (IVP, 2005), p. 100

Seeing mystery…enables us to understand how it provokes reverence, the only possible attitude to what is supreme and final in our lives. It is not a mystery that leaves us dumb and terrified, but one that leaves us happy, singing, and giving thanks. Mystery is like a cliff; we may not be able to scale it, but we can stand at the foot of it, touch it, praise its beauty. So it is with the mystery of the Trinity.
—Leonardo Boff

Nice try you even as a Unitarian would agree you can never know everything there is to know about God, many things are a mystery about God whether a person is a unitarian, modalist or trinitarian.

So you argument holds no water.

 

[TomL]

Yes, we will have to root them out of every hole they have planted in. I've observed after they have gone through their typical alleged proofs for the Trinity and they are dealt with they will eventually stop referring to the vast majority of those verses. We will have them confined to a box of no more than 1-5 verses in a matter of years and that's where they will dig their heals in the hardest.

Best place to go after is John 1 which, in my experience, has been one of their last strongholds. I have a lot of experience with this chapter and it's pretty easy to disprove. I may open a thread later if I have time.

That is really funny. A more deluded comment is hard to imagine. There are verses and arguments you have not addressed, verses and argument where you offer only bald denial, Verses where you have completely ignored context