Jesus claimed exclusivity

[Pancho Frijoles]

It was not possible for me to follow Buddha and Jesus because the two men teach some things that are irreconcilable. One (or both) of them MUST be wrong and thereby not the one to follow.

I agree with the reasoning you are sharing here.
More than relying on the individual and his claims of being Sent by God, or enlightened, we should examine their teachings... and very importantly, the impact of their teachings in the life of their followers.

 

[TomL]

Then how the people of Israel came to God in the time of Moses?
Israel took Moses as his intercessor before God, so that God could forgive them and be saved. Was Moses a false intercessor? Was he a false way?

Very simply

No one had seen the Father at any time. Jesus had revealed him.

He was the angel of the Lord.

He was the Word of God.

He was the YHWH men had seen

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Those two sentences contradict one another. The gospel, as defined in the Bible, is another exclusive claim and, therefore, it cannot be said all messengers of God have preached the same gospel if they did not preach Jesus crucified and resurrected as the only way to God.

The Bible says that the gospel is eternal
Who, then, was preaching the gospel in the time of Noah, or Moses, or Elijah, or John the Baptist?

Wasn't Moses preaching the eternal gospel when He called to worship the Only and True God, that implied loving Him above all things, and loving our neighbors by honoring one's parents, respecting other's lives and property, etc?

Indeed, in the parable of the king who owns a vineyard and sends out messengers to collect the profit from the workers, Jesus presents Himself as conveying the very same message of all those previous prophets. The difference is that now the Messiah, was being sent. But he makes absolutely no emphasis on any particular difference in the messages.

I we read the gospels to understand what Jesus preached, we will find that 99% of the content (we can count the verses, if you want) is NOT about Jesus crucifixion or resurrection.
Sure, Jesus predicted his death and resurrection, which accounts for that 1%. However, if that 1% were the essence of the gospel, believe me: God would have urged Israel to believe it, and would have been explicit and repetitive across all prophets of Israel. That's not the case.

When Jesus talked about his crucifixion and resurrection, he gave this message to his intimate circle... and also to his enemies, who He knew didn't believe Him anyway. But such topics were not part of his general speeches to the people.

Furthermore, we find Jesus healing and forgiving and comforting many individuals without demanding from them any particular confession on his crucifixion, blood atonement, preexistence, deity, resurrection, Second Coming.
The absence of such demand in 100% of the episodes in which Jesus interacts with people should make us re-think on the relevance that Jesus gave to such notions.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Very simply

No one had seen the Father at any time. Jesus had revealed him.

He was the angel of the Lord.

He was the Word of God.

He was the YHWH men had seen

The people of Israel didn't come directly to The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, asking for mercy.
They asked Moses to do it on their behalf.
They didn't ask the King of Edom, or Moab, or the Pharaoh. They also didn't ask the "Angel of YHHW".
So, was Moses the Way to God or not?

 

[TomL]

The people of Israel didn't come directly to The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, asking for mercy.
They asked Moses to do it on their behalf.
They didn't ask the King of Edom, or Moab, or the Pharaoh. They also didn't ask the "Angel of YHHW".
So, was Moses the Way to God?

Yes and Moses saw the pre-incarnate Christ

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Do you believe God is a God of reason? (He may be extra-rational, but He is never irrational)

Yes.
I like how you put it. He is extra-rational, but never irrational.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes and Moses saw the pre-incarnate Christ

I respect your belief but that the Bible does not say that Moses "saw the pre-incarnate Christ. "

Moses is presented over and over as interacting with God on behalf of the people of Israel, and interacting with Israel on behalf of God.
For the point in question, regardles of whether Moses "saw" God physically or metaphorically, He acted as the Way to God. The only Way.

There is absolutely no evidence that the people of Israel were taught to bypass Moses and seek the intercession of "The Angel of YHWH", or to learn directly from such Angel what God wanted. The people of Israel were not taught to trust any other intercessor, but Moses.

In that time, if you were for Moses, you were for God. If you were against Moses, you were against God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

ALL of those verses are good BUT you've removed them from their context. You've also ignored the fact most of them say nothing about getting to God and getting to God is the one, single, solitary, lone point being discussed:

I'm intrigued why you say that.
All of those verses are about getting to God.
How the statement "they will see God" is not about getting to God?
If you manage to see God... boy... you have walked The Way right?

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Jesus is The Way to God because he taught (by words and example) to be pure in heart.
If we become what Jesus asked us to become, we will see God.

In none of the beatitudes Jesus says something like:

"Blessed those who believe in my crucifixion to atone for the sins of the world, because they will enter the Kingdom"
"Blessed those who believe in my physical resurrection, because they will see God"
"Blessed those who believe I am God, because they shall obtain mercy"

Some Evangelical religious leaders would be delighted to see such verses written in Scripture, so that they could justify their salaries and years in seminars and schools of Theology. Something that would make them empowered to tell their congregations that they could be saved by believing Jesus deity and resurrection, while seeing from afar how Jews, Muslims and Sikhs are sent to hell to be tortured forever and ever.

For the dismay and embarrassment of those false pastors, the eternal gospel is much more reasonable and much more powerful than that.
.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Do you believe the indicatives and Imperatives recorded in Scriptures?

J.

Hi Johann
I’m sorry, I didn’t get you. Could you rephrase your question?

 

[synergy]

I'm opening this thread in order to discuss the sense of exclusivity found on many of Jesus claims, and those of his apostles.
I would like to invite @JoshebB to the discussion.
The aim of the thread is just to exchange views and understand a bit better why we believe what we believe. This may eventually cast light on our shared nature as humans seeking God and enjoying his grace.

I am not a Christian. I am a Baha'i. As a result, I consider as Manifestations of the Word of God several persons with distinct, historical identities, like Noah, Abraham, Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Bahá'u'lláh, among others.

I am aware of the claims of exclusivity made by Jesus and his apostles in many aspects.
I see this as completely natural for a Manifestation of God at a given time and circumstance.
Competing leaders and competing messages that could mislead people must be considered false messiahs, false teachers, false gospels.

If I could summarize my position (that I can elaborate as we advance in the dicussion) I believe there is only one eternal gospel, One Way, and correspondingly, one set of instructions that makes sense to... and must be followed by... a given group of people at a given time of history ( a set that often includes temporary laws, rituals, symbols, or secondary discourses). The Messenger who represents this Only Way, this Only Gospel, has all the right to demand exclusivity.

There are countless ways that Jesus is exclusive. If I had to pick one paramount way Jesus is exclusive I would point to the fact that Jesus now sits in his Father's Throne where all the worship and prayers of heaven is directed to him and to the Father. All other "Messengers" are dust trampled over by goats, pigs, and dogs.

(Rev 3:21) The one overcoming, I will give to him to sit with Me in My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father in His throne.

 

[JoshebB]

I agree with the reasoning you are sharing here.
More than relying on the individual and his claims of being Sent by God, or enlightened, we should examine their teachings... and very importantly, the impact of their teachings in the life of their followers.

Yes, and here again the teachings of Jesus are unique and exclusive because his teachings teach no one following his teachings can be perfect on this side of the grave. Without digressing too far afield of the op, it is a common criticism about Christians that "All Christians are hypocrites!" when the reality is all humans are hypocrites (and, therefore, the indictment is self-indicting ).

There's an old evangelistic story that goes something like,

One day ten people died and found themselves standing before the gates of heaven. After a brief moment Peter came out and told the group, "Jesus will be a long in a while and we will then decide who gets entrance into heaven." Then Peter departs and it is a very long time during which no one comes. In impatient frustration the group begins talking among themselves, telling their life stories and recounting the ways in which they believed God worked in their lives (or did not). Eventually, Jesus did show up, and when he did so he found the ten people standing in a single line. The first person in the line left the line and walked up to Jesus and reported, "Jesus, we have been talking among ourselves and through that process determined who among us was the most and least righteous and ordered ourselves from least to most. If you would, therefore, simply tell us at which point the order gets divided and thereby who gets to stay and who must leave, then perhaps we can save some time." Jesus expressed his appreciation for the effort, "Thank you for all that work.... but you've made a drastic mistake."​

"You do not get compared to each other. You get compared to me, and every single one of you fails that measure."​

"That is why you are saved by grace and not by works. Please come into my home where you will find eternal life."​

John 14:1-6
"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself, that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going." Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going, how do we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me."

His teaching is that he is the way, not his teachings. That is why all the other religions have to modify (change) his teachings when they accept him as one of many messengers from God. If he is correct, then ALL others are wrong.

 

[JoshebB]

The Bible says that the gospel is eternal
Who, then, was preaching the gospel in the time of Noah, or Moses, or Elijah, or John the Baptist?

I am not going to digress far afield of the op-specified subject of discussion, but the answer is God. God preached the gospel to others, and the gospel is Christ crucified and resurrected, winning the victory over sin and death such that all who believe in him may have eternal life. Any other "gospel" is not the gospel.

 

[civic]

I am not going to digress far afield of the op-specified subject of discussion, but the answer is God. God preached the gospel to others, and the gospel is Christ crucified and resurrected, winning the victory over sin and death such that all who believe in him may have eternal life. Any other "gospel" is not the gospel.

Ditto there is only one gospel

 

[TomL]

Yes, and here again the teachings of Jesus are unique and exclusive because his teachings teach no one following his teachings can be perfect on this side of the grave. Without digressing too far afield of the op, it is a common criticism about Christians that "All Christians are hypocrites!" when the reality is all humans are hypocrites (and, therefore, the indictment is self-indicting ).

There's an old evangelistic story that goes something like,

One day ten people died and found themselves standing before the gates of heaven. After a brief moment Peter came out and told the group, "Jesus will be a long in a while and we will then decide who gets entrance into heaven." Then Peter departs and it is a very long time during which no one comes. In impatient frustration the group begins talking among themselves, telling their life stories and recounting the ways in which they believed God worked in their lives (or did not). Eventually, Jesus did show up, and when he did so he found the ten people standing in a single line. The first person in the line left the line and walked up to Jesus and reported, "Jesus, we have been talking among ourselves and through that process determined who among us was the most and least righteous and ordered ourselves from least to most. If you would, therefore, simply tell us at which point the order gets divided and thereby who gets to stay and who must leave, then perhaps we can save some time." Jesus expressed his appreciation for the effort, "Thank you for all that work.... but you've made a drastic mistake."​

"You do not get compared to each other. You get compared to me, and every single one of you fails that measure."​

"That is why you are saved by grace and not by works. Please come into my home where you will find eternal life."​

John 14:1-6
"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself, that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going." Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going, how do we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me."

His teaching is that he is the way, not his teachings. That is why all the other religions have to modify (change) his teachings when they accept him as one of many messengers from God. If he is correct, then ALL others are wrong.

Good news

"That is why you are saved by grace and not by works. Please come into my home where you will find eternal life."

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

His teaching is that he is the way, not his teachings. That is why all the other religions have to modify (change) his teachings when they accept him as one of many messengers from God. If he is correct, then ALL others are wrong.

Well, Jesus never ever taught that Moses was wrong. On the contrary, Jesus upheld the divine origin of the teachings conveyed by the previous prophets of God.

Were Jesus and Moses unique in personal identity? Were they unique in their teachings?

In terms of personal identity, Moses was not Jesus. Jesus was not Moses
In terms of their teachings, Jesus' teachings were unique just as Moses teachings were unique.

So, if tMoses and Jesus were not the same individual, and if their teachings were unique, how is that Moses is not wrong? Or how is that Jesus is not wrong? How is that we don't have to decide which one was a false prophet, which one brought darkness and spiritual death into the world?

Let me share with you what I believe:

The teachings of every Messenger of God are unique, in the sense that they target specific needs of their time, and are framed in a unique wording, with unique focus, norms, rituals, symbols, etc.
However, their message is One in essence. That's why we can say that, even with their differences, the message from Moses and from Jesus came from God... and we can say that following that message was The Way to God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I am not going to digress far afield of the op-specified subject of discussion, but the answer is God. God preached the gospel to others, and the gospel is Christ crucified and resurrected, winning the victory over sin and death such that all who believe in him may have eternal life. Any other "gospel" is not the gospel.

At this point we can agree that God has preached the gospel to all men at all times. Do we agree on this in principle?

If God has preached the gospel to all men at all times, then God must have kept that message consistent in essence, since God cannot contradict Himself. As you have said, God is extra-rational but not irrational.

Therefore, if we in principle admit to the idea that both Moses and Jesus were right... that both spoke what God ordered them to speak, then the Message of both, the eternal gospel, should be one in essence.
Anything that we find different, is not the essence of such Message.

For example:

Moses prescribe death by stoning to adulterous people, without demanding sinless executers. Jesus prescribed to execute that order only if someone was free of sin. This is a difference, right?​

Since there are no sinless executers in this planet, how could the law prescribed by Moses be executed?​

​

Therefore, the punishment applied to an adulterer CANNOT be part of the essence of the eternal Message, the eternal gospel.​

To find out the essence and oneness of the Message, we have to dig into the aspects in which Moses Message and Jesus' Message was the same. ​

 

[mikesw]

At this point we can agree that God has preached the gospel to all men at all times. Do we agree on this in principle?

If God has preached the gospel to all men at all times, then God must have kept that message consistent in essence, since God cannot contradict Himself. As you have said, God is extra-rational but not irrational.

Therefore, if we in principle admit to the idea that both Moses and Jesus were right... that both spoke what God ordered them to speak, then the Message of both, the eternal gospel, should be one in essence.
Anything that we find different, is not the essence of such Message.

For example:

Moses prescribe death by stoning to adulterous people, without demanding sinless executers. Jesus prescribed to execute that order only if someone was free of sin. This is a difference, right?​

Since there are no sinless executers in this planet, how could the law prescribed by Moses be executed?​

​

Therefore, the punishment applied to an adulterer CANNOT be part of the essence of the eternal Message, the eternal gospel.​

To find out the essence and oneness of the Message, we have to dig into the aspects in which Moses Message and Jesus' Message was the same. ​

Moses was only leading Israel. This was to lead up to the era of grace through Christ. This does not mean that God has changed but rather that the time and events had progressed to the point where it was time for the Messiah to appear.

 

[JoshebB]

Yes.
I like how you put it. He is extra-rational, but never irrational.

Then this problem of exclusivity is very real, and, at the risk of being unnecessarily redundant, all the religions that deny Jesus' words as written as meant cannot also be true, and all those religions that accept Jesus in one way or another but change the meaning of his words cannot also be true.

 

[JoshebB]

I'm intrigued why you say that.
All of those verses are about getting to God.

No. They are the attributes of those who already have God.

The godless do not mourn. Those without God are not meek. No one who has not made it to God can be called His son. Your selective use of the text screwed it up hugely by ignoring the inherent contexts. I hope the irony of that has not escaped you because someone possessing the Spirit of God does not make those mistakes.

God is a God of reason. That necessarily means He NEVER employs logical fallacy (and hat would include eisegesis). And, in turn, what that means is whenever any of us observe any logical fallacy being employed, we automatically know that at best the argument is a "fleshly" argument and not one from the Spirit of God, and at worst might be demonic in origin. Either way, it's a sinful case that was posted, one in need of either correction or discarding.

If you manage to see God... boy... you have walked The Way right?

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Being pure in heart is not how one gets to God. Being pure in heart is a consequence of having gotten to God.

Jesus is The Way to God because he taught (by words and example) to be pure in heart. If we become what Jesus asked us to become, we will see God.

In none of the beatitudes Jesus says something like:

"Blessed those who believe in my crucifixion to atone for the sins of the world, because they will enter the Kingdom"
"Blessed those who believe in my physical resurrection, because they will see God"
"Blessed those who believe I am God, because they shall obtain mercy"

I agree that all those statements about "believe" is not what is stated in the beatitudes but that has nothing to do with the problem you are trying to solve. Being pure of heart is not how someone gets to God. Arguing that becoming or being pure of heart is how someone gets to God, "If you manage to see God [then] you have walked the Way," is a post hoc fallacy. The correct way to understand that beatitudinal statement is that those who have arrived at God through Jesus are pure in heart..... because it is the coming to God through His resurrected son that bestows purity of heart,

You have the order backwards and assumed a causal relationship of works.

In Christianity salvation is not by works. In Christianity, salvation is by grace through faith for works. For works, not by works. This is another exclusive aspect of Christianity. All other religions have some kind of works by which their version of salvation, or enlightenment, or getting to God is achieved or obtained by the individual's effort. A person following Jesus' teachings through the means of his own faculties will stand before God only in condemnation.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."

That clause in there about doing "the will of my Father..." throws off a lot of people because they read that to mean all they have to do is be compliant or obedient. All they have to do is work or do the works in accordance with God's will. Those people Jesus was describing thought they'd done it correctly; they thought they'd done God's will, but they hadn't.

No one gets to God by works.

And that fact should be understood on its face. God is the Creator, and He is Infinite in every way. We, on the other hand, are creatures and we are finite. Logic tells us it is impossible for anything finite to reach infinity, or the Infinite. That means there is absolutely no way any finite creaturely effort could ever possibly reach God AND any god that teaches creatures that sort of nonsense is truth is not a God. That means, if Jesus words are true and correct, Jesus was not saying his teachings were the way. Finite human effort can never reach the infinite God.

And yet there are scores of religions who have made this very foolish mistake.

Some Evangelical religious leaders...

Red herring.

What others do or do not do is irrelevant to this conversation. This conversation is (supposed to be) about the exclusivity of Jesus' statement he is the only way to God.

 

[JoshebB]

Well, Jesus never ever taught that Moses was wrong.

Two errors are contained in that sentence. The first is the argument from silence. Jesus never said Moses was correct, either. Jesus never said Moses was the way to God, either. Jesus never said Moses danced on an ancient version of the pogo stick to pick frunja berries off the moon, either. The second error is Jesus did, in fact, teach Moses erred, and if Moses errored, then Moses cannot be the way.

Matthew 19:8
He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way."

In point of fact, most of what Jesus did is correct errors in either Moses' teaching or the misuses and abuses of the Pentateuch Moses wrote (according to tradition). Every single occasion when we read Jesus saying, "You have heard it said, '________________________ ," but I tell you, ' (and then he corrects what they'd heard said) ,'" that is an example of Jesus correcting an error of either Moses himself or some misuse of Moses. Nearly everything Jesus taught can be found in the Tanakh. Most of what Jesus taught was not new, it was restored.

Tanakh is always correct.
Judaism is often wrong.

Works never save. Works never get anyone anywhere near God. The finite cannot reach the infinite.

On the contrary, Jesus upheld the divine origin of the teachings conveyed by the previous prophets of God.

LOL! You just moved the goal posts!!!

The "divine origin" of some thing (like the Law of Moses) and the thing itself are not the same thing. The laws in the Law of Moses certainly did come from God but one of the laws in the Law is that the Law cannot get anyone to God apart from Jesus crucified and resurrected. He, and he alone, is the way, the truth, the life, and no one comes to the Father but by him. Not he and his teachings. His teachings could conceivably be followed to the letter of the law and that individual still not be able to come to God.

Were Jesus and Moses unique in personal identity? Were they unique in their teachings? In terms of................................

ALL of that has all already been covered in previous posts, so I am not going to repeat myself.


Jesus addressed to problem of thinking Moses was the way to God when he said,

John 5:39-40
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about me; and you are unwilling to come to me so that you may have life.

The appeal to Moses was always going to lead to Jesus, and Jesus alone.

Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about himself.

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

According to Jesus, everything written in Tanakh, including everything Moses taught, was about him.




The simple fact is Jesus said he was the only way to the father and it is a mistake to think he was speaking about his teachings because works never get anyone anywhere close to God. The finite cannot ever reach the infinite with finite effort. It is logically impossible so everyone should necessarily understand the abject foolishness of any and all religious systems that say human effort can make its way to God.

It should also have precluded you from trying appeal to Moses or thinking I would tolerate, much less be persuaded by, that nonsense. It was a bad argument from its inception.