Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Please don’t call your brother ridiculous.
Do you already understand the holiness of God?
Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
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Dizerner
Well-known member
If you devoutly adhered to the Bible like you pretend to, you would know that's a very Biblical thing to say.
But you just accept it the way you like it, however you can make it fit what you already like.
Better than you, and most people on here rejecting truth, that's for sure; as for perfection, well, not even close.
I've met God multiple times, I'm not just talking out of my backside what I would prefer to be true.
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Yes ! and the serpent arrived in the garden, condemned for his unbelief already... When did the serpent hear the gospel and reject the Son as the only saviour from sin unless he heard the gospel proclaimed to every person ever created before the creation of the physical universe as Colossians 1:23 suggests.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Serpent = Satan
Unbelief has many different forms. In the case of Satan, Satan believes but willing rejects God. I've often wondered if Satan was around "standing the shadows" as God took a lump of ashes from a previous destruction into his hands and formed man. Those ashes might have even been from the burning flesh of Satan. I know that sounds crazy but I do have those thoughts from time to time.
There is something there that we just don't know. Some can criticize me or not. I can just feel there is something there that I can't comprehend.
However, I don't believe Col 1:23 teaches what you believe it implies. Paul is just simply saying that the Gospel had come to be preached "at that time" to all those under heaven.
The message of Christ pre-existed His advent and was shared among many cultures that ultimately turned the Truth of God "into a lie". After Christ's death, the message of the Son of God quickly spread throughout all of humanity. Contrary to what many people believe. The Gospel was shared by far more people than just the apostles out of Jerusalem.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Well, that means that, if the distance to understanding the holiness of God is, say, one light-year, you are perhaps one milimeter ahead of all of us... which is really not much, isn't it?
The more we understand the holiness of God, the more compasive we become towards our fellows.
A God who tortures Jews forever because they don't accept PSA, for example, would not be a holy God. That would be a sadist demon... a genocidal infinitely worse than Hitler.
The proof of what I say is that persons of very limited holiness compared to Him, like you and me, would not allow anyone to hurt a Jew just for their religion.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
My knowledge of the Bible is very limited.
Please help me by pointing out to the verses that make "ridiculous" a very biblical thing to say to our brothers
I agree - the serpent was probably Satan.
I understand how Satan could be seen as a fallen believer but then who are the people who are said to be condemned already because they have never believed, Jn 3:18 if not Satan and his demonic army flung into the earth ending the war in heaven, Rev 12:4-9?
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1. It is not just Jews who reject Christ who suffer the consequences of their evil choice, but every one who puts their faith in the idea that Him is a liar and not our Lord and Saviour who will suffer hell.
2. The pain of hell they suffer is from the just, legal and natural consequences of their faith choices, not from GOD's desire to cause pain or suffering. Hell is a righteous judgment against them. Torture is an unearned suffering caused to get something from them or to fulfill a psychotic need within the torturer.
GOD gets nothing from their suffering and has no desire to see them suffer as HE has written more than once. To call the righteous Judge a torturer because those whom HE justly condemned for their evil to eternal hell do not like being there shows and incredible lack of understanding of true love and justice.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Read your words. You don't believe what you say.
Do you think that perpetual suffering is the just, legal and natural consequence of choosing a religious faith?
What you have written is a promotion of genocide and has no place in this Forum, in any religious discourse or society.
Please retract your statement.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
There is no context that establishes for certain when Satan original sinned. I don't believe Gen 1:1 establishes the beginning of Satan.
Sure I do...the logic is inescapable.
GOD created us to be HIS Bride.
For love to be real in a real marriage, the prospective bride must choose her husband by her free will.
Choosing by a free, ie, uncoerced will, means that we can also choose to rebuke HIM as our husband and choose instead to live in what HE called sinfulness.
The unforgivable Sin
Please consider: the unforgivable sin was the Satanic fall, their free will decision to reject by faith, ie, an unproven hope (Heb 11:1), that YHWH's claims, made without any proof, to be our creator GOD and to accept by faith without proof that the gospel of salvation from sin as found only in the Son was a lie. Their faith contained the ideas that HE was no better than the rest of us so HE must be a liar and as a liar, a false god...just listen to atheists and pagans about their opinion of YHVH for confirmation.
As the first liar in all of creation, HE must therefore be the most evil person in existence so they repudiated HIM, rejecting HIM from having any influence in their lives at all. Putting their faith in this idea that HE was evil and driven by a psychotic megalomania made them eternally unfit to ever be HIS Bride so they were condemned to judgement on the spot, passed over for election to salvation due to their choice.
They can't be forgiven because
1. they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone else, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable, apart from GOD's interference or it cannot be defined as free. This is not a rule but a matter of definition: A cannot be not A at the same time; wet cannot be dry at the same time; free to choose an unchangeable decision can't therefore be changed by another and still be considered free.
2. Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance and save themselves by changing their minds about HIM. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became even more committed to the belief that they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. So great is their addiction to evil that even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7, they could not change their minds because they loved their sin more than the truth as we learn in Roman 1:18+.
This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners, elect and reprobate, flung into the earth.
They are unforgivable not because HE hates them and their sin so much because it is worse than other sins but because when HE proclaimed His gospel of salvation to every creature created in HIS image, Colossians 1:23, for us to accept HIS claims or to reject HIM, HE promised us our choice would not be interfered with or changed or forced upon us without our consent, though there would be legal and natural consequences for rebellion...warnings which some ignored as lies.
The choice to repudiate HIS help in saving them from the grip of sin while becoming unable to save themselves by changing their minds sealed their doom. Against all of GOD's warnings, they created the life for themselves that will end with them in eternal hell.
They even had the example of some of the elect who did accept the gospel as true, who did put their faith without proof in YHVH being our creator GOD and our only saviour from sin but who, upon receiving the promise of election to salvation and the heavenly marriage for their faith in Him, went their own way into sinfulness, knowing they could never die, ie, end in hell. If YHVH was our GOD then they were safe from hell....if not, then there was no hell anyway but in their arrogance the followers of Satan sneered at this path, standing firm in their belief HE was a liar and a false god, thus condemning themselves to hell for all eternity as totally inimical to the polite heavenly society of GOD's heavenly holy marriage.
All sin, even the eternally unforgivable sin, was self inflicted. Before they made their firm faith decision that IF YHVH WAS our GOD then they were indeed going to hell but they chose to put their faith in rejecting HIS claims anyway, feeling safe from HIS lies about hell. Any and all sympathy for the devil is grossly misplaced.
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I contend that the lack of context is due to mistaken interpretations by orthodoxy.
I find the context in the impossibility of anyone choosing to reject GOD as no better than himself and as their Saviour AFTER they saw the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power which made their decisions to be without excuse! Having no reason or excuse to reject HIM as their GOD, they did so by faith only, an unproven hope (Heb 11:1) they were right and safe in making this decision in the face of HIS warnings of the eternal consequences of making it.
Without excuse means that they had no real reason to reject HIM, but did so out of a trust in themselves as equal to him as a person so HE must be lying about HIS nature. Therefore they had to have made their decision to rebel against HIM as their GOD and Saviour BEFORE they saw the proof that they were wrong. Since we are told that it was the creation of the physical universe that was the proof of HIS deity and eternal power, Rom 1:18-20, the Satanic fell before the creation of this physical universe.
Knowing this truth did not dissuade them from their lies due to the enslaving power of sin which they loved more than the truth, Rom 1. Thus their sinfulness encouraged them to go to war against YHWH, Rev 12:4-9, a war which caused them to be flung into Sheol within the prison planet earth to be sown into mankind, Matt 13:36-39, to live with the sinful elect, Matt 13:27-30, to prove to them their idolatry of the Satanic was incredibly misplaced and they should come out from among them in their hearts immediately!
The war in heaven was not the fall of the Satanic but was the result of their fall into sin prior to the creation of the physical universe which they all saw, Job 38:7, which would have ended all possibility of rebellion in anyone not already a sinner.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Okay. It is not seeing that brings confirmation. At least not for reprobates knowing their end but persisting in their own ways. Since hasn't taken swift actions this sets wickedness in the hearts of all creatures.
Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil
At least that is my initial thoughts on your comments. I will certainly listen to anything you have in return.
Salty
Member
According to the Bible, death came into the world because of sin.. In the original creation of God, there was no death. God warned Adam and Eve that disobedience to His commandment would result in their death. Satan enticed Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, and after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, God pronounced judgment upon them, which included death.
In Romans 5:12, Paul writes that “through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.”
In Romans 5:12, Paul writes that “through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.”
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Notice the word entered. Death pre existed this world.
Yes. Being sinful causes your death. Being created in SINFUL place does not make you a sinner not under judgement of death. Yet infants die.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
- First, your theology is supporting genocide, which is an inconceivable sin. Your theology is supporting the extermination or torture of entire groups of millions of human beings on account of their religion. You are considering this just, legal, natural and logic! This proves your theology to be far more evil than the Nazi ideology.
- Second, you are confounding a mistake with a lie. People who are mistaken are not liars. For sure we both are mistaken in hundreds of things. That does not mean we are liars.
- Third. You are confounding being mistaken with rejecting God. Within each religion there are people who reject a God and who love God. So, there are Baptists who reject God, and Baptists who love God. There are Sikhs who reject God, and Sikhs who love God.
Who, in contrast, would be willing to sign and send a letter to the Embassy of Israel, Bangladesh or China in your country declaring legal, just, natural and logic that the vast majority of their citizens end up tortured forever or exterminated in a lake of fire?
I declare to be Francisco Enrique Camacho Mezquita, male, 58, Mexican citizen, Baha’i, married, Medical Doctor, who participate in this Forum under the nickname of Pancho Frijoles, and whose real photo is that of my profile.
I publicly and firmly reject any declaration that justifies the extermination or torture of religious communities.
I consider genocide evil, regardless of whether it is executed by human or non-human agents, in this life of in an afterlife. I am committed to denounce and refute pro-genocidal ideologies wherever I find them. I am committed to promote peace, interfaith dialogue, religious freedom and human rights.
Mexico City, January 25, 2025.
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The death through sin spoken of in Romans 5:12 must be spiritual death, not physical death (Eph 2:1). Also we read in Hebrews that it is appointed or destined for man to die [physically] once (Heb 9:27). Then if physical death is the result of sin, then that must mean that it is appointed for man to sin. God has not appointed for man to sin.
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