Jesus Christ is the wisdom and creation of God

[Runningman]

Interesting. So you think there is someone advocating several gods? You seem to be misunderstanding what group you are talking to. Maybe have a thread denying there are many gods. See if you have anyone who disagrees with you on that concept. Maybe you will just have Hindus challenging your rejection of multiple gods.
Wecould get back to the Unitarian heresy vs Triune God.

You're speaking strangely as if you hold some kind of Biblical high ground when you do not. The Trinity is not ever explained or described or hinted at in the Bible. Nearly all of your talking points are completely absent from Scripture. Most recently, your humbling was when you asked me if I came here to learn and then you immediately learned about your impotency to quote a single verse that demonstrates Jesus participated in his own resurrection.

 

[Runningman]

Runningman must be proposing that Abraham did not see anything when he recognized God visiting him. So these verses was just the imagination of Abraham and was not real:
Genesis 17:1–2 (ESV)
1When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless,
2that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly.”

I'm starting to see how runningman thinks. Pretty unusual way.

This is a Christian forum. You should not be saying things that seem to contradict the fact that the only God is invisible according to 1 Timothy 1:17. Those seeking or weaker in the faith could stumble over such things if there is an apparent contradiction without a satisfactory explanation; I hope that is not your goal. You actually do a great disservice to your own religion as well by leaving your point open-ended.

Care to explain how the only God is invisible and then the only God apparently wasn't invisible in the verse you provided?

 

[mikesw]

That's a contradiction. Clearly Jesus was created as Scripture states. There is also John 1:14, Colossians 1:15, and Revelation 3:14 that also say such.

I always am amazed at the confused ideas you share. Of course Jesus was created, his human form did not exist until he was conceived in Mary. Every human body was created through the birth process. This only accentuates the process of God incarnate. So you said something partly correct.
Then you mention Col 1:15 that creation was made through the Son and for the Son. I would find it difficult that all things in heaven and earth could come into existence by him even before he existed in human form. To limit this verse to the humanity of Jesus is ludicrous to say the least. That idea totally discounts verse 16. The idea of πρωτότοκος may be a bit difficult and unclear but we have this explanation:

However, in this context, the term "firstborn" refers to supremacy, or priority. Jesus is the greatest over all creation. He is not a created being; He is the Creator. https://www.bibleref.com/Colossians/1/Colossians-1-15.html

The verse may be difficult but it hardly can say that a human was through all things in earth and heaven were created.
Wright may have a point too

Humanity was made as the climax of the first creation (Gen. 1:26–27): the true humanity of Jesus is the climax of the history of creation, and at the same time the starting-point of the new creation
N. T. Wright, Colossians and Philemon, InterVarsity Press, 1986), 74.

The similar point is described of Rev 3:14 but with a different word

Ruler (archē) combines the thoughts that Christ has the supreme authority over creation and that he is the origin of created being
Leon Morris, Revelation InterVarsity Press, 1987, 84.

I guess you need more time to develop your arguments

 

[mikesw]

You're speaking strangely as if you hold some kind of Biblical high ground when you do not. The Trinity is not ever explained or described or hinted at in the Bible. Nearly all of your talking points are completely absent from Scripture. Most recently, your humbling was when you asked me if I came here to learn and then you immediately learned about your impotency to quote a single verse that demonstrates Jesus participated in his own resurrection.

Can I come and visit your imaginary world?

 

[mikesw]

This is a Christian forum. You should not be saying things that seem to contradict the fact that the only God is invisible according to 1 Timothy 1:17. Those seeking or weaker in the faith could stumble over such things if there is an apparent contradiction without a satisfactory explanation; I hope that is not your goal. You actually do a great disservice to your own religion as well by leaving your point open-ended.

Care to explain how the only God is invisible and then the only God apparently wasn't invisible in the verse you provided?

I think it is odd that you suddenly become concerned about Christians. This forum could exclude you if they thought that new Christians would be having their first encounters with scripture.
We find that Jews and Christians recognize that appearances of God were primarily the angel of the Lord, i.e., the messenger or message (logos) of God. He (as the Son but continued in the flesh) is the image of God that has been seen of various people in the OT. So this was a good verse to introduce.

Maybe you to can come to my "religion" which reveals the true Son of God.

Something that can be interesting to followers Christ is that 1 Tim 1:17 can be an apologetic statement about God in heaven in that he no idols carved by men could reflect who God is. This is then extended to be an honorary declaration of God's uniqueness, not something to deny who Christ is.

 

[Runningman]

I always am amazed at the confused ideas you share. Of course Jesus was created, his human form did not exist until he was conceived in Mary. Every human body was created through the birth process. This only accentuates the process of God incarnate. So you said something partly correct.
Then you mention Col 1:15 that creation was made through the Son and for the Son. I would find it difficult that all things in heaven and earth could come into existence by him even before he existed in human form. To limit this verse to the humanity of Jesus is ludicrous to say the least. That idea totally discounts verse 16. The idea of πρωτότοκος may be a bit difficult and unclear but we have this explanation:

The verse may be difficult but it hardly can say that a human was through all things in earth and heaven were created.
Wright may have a point too

The similar point is described of Rev 3:14 but with a different word

I guess you need more time to develop your arguments

John 1:14 says the Word became flesh. In all of Scripture, when the word "became" is used it has never been used to describe an incarnation. However, it is used repeatedly throughout the Bible to describe something coming into existence that previously was not, which is in line with the New Testament teaching that Jesus was created. Colossians 1:15 describes Jesus as one who is not independent of the creation. Revelation 3:14 explicitly states Jesus is of the creation of God.

The only possible example of an incarnation in the Bible is entirely pagan. Are you saying that the pagans believe the same thing that you do as a Trinitarian?

Acts 14
11When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices in the Lycaonian language: “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates, hoping to offer a sacrifice along with the crowds.

 

[Runningman]

I think it is odd that you suddenly become concerned about Christians. This forum could exclude you if they thought that new Christians would be having their first encounters with scripture.
We find that Jews and Christians recognize that appearances of God were primarily the angel of the Lord, i.e., the messenger or message (logos) of God. He (as the Son but continued in the flesh) is the image of God that has been seen of various people in the OT. So this was a good verse to introduce.

This reads like a non-sequitur. You seem to provide support for why you believe the verse was good to introduce, but your reasoning for why is foreign to Scripture. The AOTL is not the Son nor ever described as the Son. Nor is the AOTL YHWH Himself.

Before I show you otherwise... are you aware of the verses where the AOTL and YHWH speak to one another? Are you aware of the verses where the AOTL makes an appearance in the New Testament in close proximity to Jesus?

Maybe you to can come to my "religion" which reveals the true Son of God.

No thanks I will stick with Biblical Christianity.

Something that can be interesting to followers Christ is that 1 Tim 1:17 can be an apologetic statement about God in heaven in that he no idols carved by men could reflect who God is. This is then extended to be an honorary declaration of God's uniqueness, not something to deny who Christ is.

1 Timothy 1:17 can also debunk the deity of Jesus if one such as yourself were to accept what it says at face value.

 

[mikesw]

John 1:14 says the Word became flesh. In all of Scripture, when the word "became" is used it has never been used to describe an incarnation. However, it is used repeatedly throughout the Bible to describe something coming into existence that previously was not, which is in line with the New Testament teaching that Jesus was created. Colossians 1:15 describes Jesus as one who is not independent of the creation. Revelation 3:14 explicitly states Jesus is of the creation of God.

The only possible example of an incarnation in the Bible is entirely pagan. Are you saying that the pagans believe the same thing that you do as a Trinitarian?

Acts 14
11When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices in the Lycaonian language: “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates, hoping to offer a sacrifice along with the crowds.

more ignorant associations. So you are now equating the Son of God to Pagan religions. That is going further to the evil side

 

[mikesw]

This reads like a non-sequitur. You seem to provide support for why you believe the verse was good to introduce, but your reasoning for why is foreign to Scripture. The AOTL is not the Son nor ever described as the Son. Nor is the AOTL YHWH Himself.

whatever you want to say, you will say. If you do not care what Jews found about the angel of the Lord and what got recognized in Christ Jesus, i'm not sure what gets you back on track. I guess I forget that unitarians have a unique form of interpretation.

Before I show you otherwise... are you aware of the verses where the AOTL and YHWH speak to one another? Are you aware of the verses where the AOTL makes an appearance in the New Testament in close proximity to Jesus?

haha. So you want the Son of God to appear in close proximity to himself in the flesh? That is going off the deep end. I'm wondering if you have passages in mind.

No thanks I will stick with Biblical Christianity.

That would be a good change

1 Timothy 1:17 can also debunk the deity of Jesus if one such as yourself were to accept what it says at face value.

If you do not care about the context of a text .... Oops. If you start caring about the context and relevance of the text, you will do much better.

 

[Runningman]

more ignorant associations. So you are now equating the Son of God to Pagan religions. That is going further to the evil side

No. Scripture teaches that Jesus as the Son of God is the same person as the Son of Man (John 5:25-27) so I hope you know and understand that humans like Jesus, yourself, and I are composed of created matter; various elements and compounds. These things are created.

Contrary to Scripture, Trinitarianism teaches that the Son of God incarnated. Contrary to Trinitarianism, the only possible example of an incarnation in the Bible is of pagan origin. In other words, I am saying your Trintiarian religion is not Scriptural and contains pagan philosophical ideas that are completely foreign to Judaism and early Christianity.

 

[mikesw]

No. Scripture teaches that Jesus as the Son of God is the same person as the Son of Man (John 5:25-27) so I hope you know and understand that humans like Jesus, yourself, and I are composed of created matter; various elements and compounds. These things are created.

Contrary to Scripture, Trinitarianism teaches that the Son of God incarnated. Contrary to Trinitarianism, the only possible example of an incarnation in the Bible is of pagan origin. In other words, I am saying your Trintiarian religion is not Scriptural and contains pagan philosophical ideas that are completely foreign to Judaism and early Christianity.

I cannot believe what you will say to deny Christ. You have to imagine some pagan influence among the Jews in order to say that they came up with his divinity. Everyone has to be a liar so you can see yourself as truthful.
If you can come up with an argument to reject all the scriptures that point to the divinity of Christ, develop that in a convincing way.

 

[Runningman]

I cannot believe what you will say to deny Christ. You have to imagine some pagan influence among the Jews in order to say that they came up with his divinity. Everyone has to be a liar so you can see yourself as truthful.
If you can come up with an argument to reject all the scriptures that point to the divinity of Christ, develop that in a convincing way.

Um, then where is Jesus said to have been incarnated then? I think you mentioned John 1:14 but this only begs the question because the "Word" doesn't seem to be a pre-incarnate being. There are no examples of the Word in the OT saying or doing anything and when John wrote about the Word again later in 1 John 1:1-3, he explicitly described the Word with impersonal pronouns like "this, that, which, it" so John seems to not believe what you do. My advice for you, don't center your entire understanding of the Bible around literally 1 or 2 verses. Only John ever wrote about the "Word became flesh." Everyone else just said Jesus is a human with a genealogy.

 

[mikesw]

Um, then where is Jesus said to have been incarnated then? I think you mentioned John 1:14 but this only begs the question because the "Word" doesn't seem to be a pre-incarnate being. There are no examples of the Word in the OT saying or doing anything and when John wrote about the Word again later in 1 John 1:1-3, he explicitly described the Word with impersonal pronouns like "this, that, which, it" so John seems to not believe what you do. My advice for you, don't center your entire understanding of the Bible around literally 1 or 2 verses. Only John ever wrote about the "Word became flesh." Everyone else just said Jesus is a human with a genealogy.

It gets harder to believe that you are in any way trying to make real arguments. You have a lot more work to do if you want to discredit what is said in John 1. That is the hyperliteralist issue that is inherent in Peterlag's interpretations. He fails to recognize analogies and the significance of Jesus as the Word or Message of God to humanity. Study a bit more and come back to this.

 

[Fred]

What you have said is completely unscriptural. Jesus is a visible man in heaven

Those in heaven don't see the Father?

 

[civic]

Those in heaven don't see the Father?

things that make you go hmmmmm

 

[brightfame52]

Unlikely since the KJV's addition of the word "God" in Acts 7:59 is not actually found in the Greek textus receptus. I believe we should begin with the fact that Stephen was not calling out to God and work from there.

The translators added it because God is the only one who receives our spirits at death, Stephen knew that Ecc 12:7

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Lord Jesus is in the TR along with receive my spirit, plus it was an imperative, Stephen was very specific about whom he was calling upon to receive his spirit, and if Jesus isn't God, he didn't understand or was ignorant of Ecc 12:7 which is the word of God

Gill also comments:

and saying, Lord Jesus receive my Spirit; from whence we learn, that the spirit or soul of man sleeps not, nor dies with the body, but remains after death; that Jesus Christ is a fit person to commit and commend the care of the soul unto immediately upon its separation; and that he must be truly and properly God; not only because he is equal to such a charge, which none but God is, but because divine worship and adoration are here given him. This is so glaring a proof of prayer being made unto him, that some Socinians, perceiving the force of it, would read the word Jesus in the genitive case, thus; "Lord of Jesus receive my Spirit": as if the prayer was made to the Father of Christ, when it is Jesus he saw standing at the right hand of God, whom he invokes, and who is so frequently called Lord Jesus; whereas the Father is never called the Lord of Jesus; and besides, these words are used in like manner in the vocative case, in Revelation 22:20 to which may be added, that the Syriac version reads, "our Lord Jesus"; and the Ethiopic version, "my Lord Jesus".

 

[MTMattie]

Unlikely since the KJV's addition of the word "God" in Acts 7:59 is not actually found in the Greek textus receptus. I believe we should begin with the fact that Stephen was not calling out to God and work from there.

Greek interlinear
reads ~ https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ecclesiastes/12-7.htm (check the link , I have no time to post it all)

to will return and the spirit as it was the earth to the dust And will return . gave it who God

[td]

7725

7​

wə·yā·šōḇ

7​

7​

[td width="99%"]

וְיָשֹׁ֧ב​

[/td]​

[td]

Then shall return

7​

[/td]​

[/td]​

[td]

6083
he·‘ā·p̄ār
הֶעָפָ֛ר
the dust​

[/td]​

[td]

5921
‘al-
עַל־
to​

[/td]​

[td]

776
hā·’ā·reṣ
הָאָ֖רֶץ
the earth​

[/td]​

[td]

1961
kə·še·hā·yāh;
כְּשֶׁהָיָ֑ה
as it was​

[/td]​

[td]

7307
wə·hā·rū·aḥ
וְהָר֣וּחַ
and the spirit​

[/td]​

[td]

7725
tā·šūḇ,
תָּשׁ֔וּב
shall return​

[/td]​

[td]

413
’el-
אֶל־
unto​

[/td]​

[td]

430
hā·’ĕ·lō·hîm
הָאֱלֹהִ֖ים
God​

[/td]​

[td]

834
’ă·šer
אֲשֶׁ֥ר
who​

[/td]​

[td]

5414
nə·ṯā·nāh.
נְתָנָֽהּ׃​

[/td]​

​

7before the dust also return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return to God who gave it.
Septugint LXX


NIV
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

New Living Translation
For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

English Standard Version
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Berean Standard Bible
before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

King James Bible
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

New King James Version
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

New American Standard Bible
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

NASB 1995
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

NASB 1977
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Legacy Standard Bible
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Amplified Bible
then the dust [out of which God made man’s body] will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Christian Standard Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”

American Standard Version
and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

Contemporary English Version
So our bodies return to the earth, and the life-giving breath returns to God.

English Revised Version
and the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God who gave it.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Then the dust [of mortals] goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it.

Good News Translation
Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us.

International Standard Version
then man's dust will go back to the earth, returning to what it was, and the spirit will return to the God who gave it.

NET Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life's breath returns to God who gave it.

New Heart English Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

World English Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
And the dust returns to the earth as it was, "" And the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Young's Literal Translation
And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

Smith's Literal Translation
And the dust shall turn back to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall turn back to God who gave it.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it.

Catholic Public Domain Version
and the dust returns to its earth, from which it was, and the spirit returns to God, who granted it.

New American Bible
And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath returns to God who gave it.

New Revised Standard Version
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it.
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
Then the dust shall return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
And the dust will return to Earth like it was and the spirit will return to LORD JEHOVAH who gave it
OT Translations
JPS Tanakh 1917
And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
before the dust also return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return to God who gave it.

 

[MTMattie]

Regardless, none of them were "orthodox Trinitarians" and they would all be heretics by today's standard of Trinitarianism. The point is, the people in your group really hadn't figured out who or what their god is for a very long time. It also took them a long time to create supporting doctrines to close of (most) of the loopholes. They forgot about figuring out how a sin sacrifice works in your religion, though.

For example, Trinitarians cannot answer this question. If God cannot die, and Jesus is God in the flesh, then when Jesus died, was it actually God who died, or merely Jesus' physical body?

For crying out loud.

If you EVER come to know who Jesus was/is you can answer your own question. For now let me give you a wee hint.

When you die... because you will. What happens?

 

[Runningman]

It gets harder to believe that you are in any way trying to make real arguments. You have a lot more work to do if you want to discredit what is said in John 1. That is the hyperliteralist issue that is inherent in Peterlag's interpretations. He fails to recognize analogies and the significance of Jesus as the Word or Message of God to humanity. Study a bit more and come back to this.

Where is the verse that says Jesus is incarnated then?

 

[Runningman]

Those in heaven don't see the Father?

No one has visually seen God at any time, not even Jesus has in the visual sense. However, God can be declared or explained.

John 1
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.