James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Complete]

Many that deny that works are necessary for justification claim that James 2:24 speaks only of appearing righteous before people, not before God.

'Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
Abraham believed God,
and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.'
(Jas 2:21-24)

Hello @Titus,

The work of faith is to believe on Him Whom God hath sent.

'Then said they unto Him, What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28-29)

That is faith in action. to actively believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

As I demonstrated in post #556, his opinion and "scholarly" work contradicts Scripture, so I cannot accept his opinion. He may be a scholar and may have a lot more "learning" and education than either you or I, but even I, with my limited education, quickly found the error in his argument.

Hello again, @Doug Brents,

I will not come back to you on this, but your arrogance is amazing. Your opinion is of no concern anymore than my own, or Dr Bullinger's for that matter, but in this case it is not opinion but scholarship that is being applied, and so I bow to his greater knowledge.

You must disbelieve to your own loss if you wish.

Thank you finally,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Doug Brents]

Hello again, @Doug Brents,

I will not come back to you on this, but your arrogance is amazing. Your opinion is of no concern anymore than my own, or Dr Bullinger's for that matter, but in this case it is not opinion but scholarship that is being applied, and so I bow to his greater knowledge.

You must disbelieve to your own loss if you wish.

Thank you finally,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Believe what you will Chris. As I said, his "scholarship" leaves much to be desired if someone as uneducated in the world's systems (I am not a Dr. as Bullinger seems to be) can find the flaw in his logic with Biblical proof so easily. Remember, Scripture is the authority, not Dr. Bullinger, or me, or you. And when Scripture says that it is through water (water baptism like the Flood (1 Pet 3:21) and the Spirit that we enter into the Kingdom of God and are made perfect (Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Acts 2:38, etc.), then we must bow to Scripture's authority, not Dr. Bullinger's scholarship.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith is not established until it includes action.

False. Once again cart before the horse. Faith is established the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-9)

We are then made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST and created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) That is the order. A dead faith does not produce good works in order to become a living faith, but BECAUSE it is a living faith. Just like a dead, a tree does not produce fruit. In order to become a living tree, but BECAUSE it's a living tree. YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS.

If there are no actions, then faith is not established at all. Actions are required for it to BE genuine faith. You still have no horse.

If no actions at all follow then that would demonstrate a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) and not genuine faith. This is not not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT because you trust in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

Genuine faith includes actions. No action = no faith.

Genuine faith results in actions. No actions demonstrate there is no faith.

You don't have faith until you have action with it. You still have no horse, just a cart headed to Hell.

We have faith the moment that we place it in Jesus.Christ alone for salvation and action follows and demonstrates that our faith is genuine. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate, there is no root.

It's you who has a cart with no horse. Works salvation is no salvation at all. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

 

[Complete]

Believe what you will Chris. As I said, his "scholarship" leaves much to be desired if someone as uneducated in the world's systems (I am not a Dr. as Bullinger seems to be) can find the flaw in his logic with Biblical proof so easily. Remember, Scripture is the authority, not Dr. Bullinger, or me, or you. And when Scripture says that it is through water (water baptism like the Flood (1 Pet 3:21) and the Spirit that we enter into the Kingdom of God and are made perfect (Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Acts 2:38, etc.), then we must bow to Scripture's authority, not Dr. Bullinger's scholarship.

Hello @Doug Brents,

I must apologise, for the arrogance is all mine. It is before God we stand, and His word is just that, His.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Hello @Doug Brents,

I must apologise, for the arrogance is all mine. It is before God we stand, and His word is just that, His.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I would not call it arrogance to call out someone trying to replace the baptism of God with baptism in water as a means of salvation

 

[Doug Brents]

False. Once again cart before the horse. Faith is established the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-9)

You cannot use the word you are defining in the definition. Faith exists the moment faith exists? Do you not see the stupidity in what you are saying?
Scripture says that faith exists the moment it includes action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26). Eph 2:5-9 does not contradict this fact. Eph 2:5-9 says that faith (living, active faith) is the conduit through which God sends His grace to us. It says NOTHING about that faith being inactive, passive, and mental-only.

We are then made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST and created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) That is the order. A dead faith does not produce good works in order to become a living faith, but BECAUSE it is a living faith. Just like a dead, a tree does not produce fruit. In order to become a living tree, but BECAUSE it's a living tree. YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS.

No, you have only half the truth. Action is not the fruit of faith. Action is the soul, the life blood, the heart of faith. Yes, there are many "good works" that come from having faith, and these are the works that God created us to be doing. But those come after salvation is received. Salvation REQUIRES a living, active faith for it to be received in the first place.

If no actions at all follow then that would demonstrate a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) and not genuine faith. This is not not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT because you trust in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

Again, no. I trust in Jesus' Word which says that in order to receive salvation we must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and be baptized in water (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:6-27, etc.). You think that these passages are either not Scripture, don't mean what they say, or find some other way to explain them away. But I trust 100% in my Lord and savior Jesus Christ who told us exactly how to enter into His Kingdom.

Genuine faith results in actions. No actions demonstrate there is no faith.

Precisely. You do not have faith unless you have action with it. No action = no faith. Action = faith.

We have faith the moment that we place it in Jesus.Christ alone for salvation

According to Scripture, how do we "place our faith in Jesus Christ"? What does Scripture say is required to place our faith in Him?

and action follows and demonstrates that our faith is genuine. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate, there is no root.

No, works are not the fruit of faith. That is not Biblical in the least.

 

[Titus]

'Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
Abraham believed God,
and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.'
(Jas 2:21-24)

Hello @Titus,

The work of faith is to believe on Him Whom God hath sent.

'Then said they unto Him, What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28-29)

That is faith in action. to actively believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I agree faith that saves is an action of obedience. Obedience to what? Jesus' new testament commandments.
Therefore faith scripturally defined is a work of God that we do, John 6:28-29.
The only sound logical conclusion is, salvation requires obedient works like faith in Jesus, John 6:28-29 ; 1John 3:23-24.
You cannot get works out of salvation.
Any gospel that teaches no works in salvation is a false gospel proven by its illogical and contradictory teaching. It proves itself to be man made.

James agrees that Abraham's faith was an obedient faith not faith alone that according to James is dead.

James 2:21-24,
- ye see then how by works(Do you see this Complete? )
- ye see then how by works a man(Abraham) is justified by works and not by faith alone

James never taught Abraham was justified by faith alone.
If one comes to that conclusion after reading James' teaching. One has completely misunderstood James.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I agree faith that saves is an action of obedience. Obedience to what? Jesus' new testament commandments.
Therefore faith scripturally defined is a work of God that we do, John 6:28-29.

some people just can not read.

John 6: 28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

what is it about people who want to take credit away from God.

And faith is not obout obaying, Faith is about trusting. where do you place your faith. In God and his work. or in self and our work?

Obedience to a command is something we do..

It can be an act of merit - "I Loved this person because I wanted to recieve somethign back. or I wanted to get God to save me)

it can be ann act of love - "I love this person. and expect nothing in return"

The only sound logical conclusion is, salvation requires obedient works like faith in Jesus, John 6:28-29 ; 1John 3:23-24.
You cannot get works out of salvation.

And here we have it. Once again, @Titus teaches a works merit based salvation.

so can someone explain why he continually denies he teaches this?

Any gospel that teaches no works in salvation is a false gospel proven by its illogical and contradictory teaching. It proves itself to be man made.

James agrees that Abraham's faith was an obedient faith not faith alone that according to James is dead.

James 2:21-24,
- ye see then how by works(Do you see this Complete? )
- ye see then how by works a man(Abraham) is justified by works and not by faith alone

James never taught Abraham was justified by faith alone.
If one comes to that conclusion after reading James' teaching. One has completely misunderstood James.

Paul taught that Abraham was justified by faith alone.

Paul never taught that Abraham was saved by any work.. James taught that pauls faith was completed. or matured.. by which it was.. it took decades, but abrahams faith grew AFTER he was saved in Gen 15, to the point he was willing to sacrifice his own son, believing God would raise him from the dead.

now lets think of this. If our faith has to be this strong in God before we get saved. How would ANYONE be saved?

 

[Titus]

No, works are not the fruit of faith. That is not Biblical in the least.

I dont understand what you mean.
Please elaborate?

Faith produces good works. Good works is fruit bearing.

Colossians 1:10,
- that we might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of the Lord

Faith that produces no fruit has no good works being dead, James 2:17.

 

[Titus]

No, works are not the fruit of faith. That is not Biblical in the least.

I dont understand what you mean.
Please elaborate?

Faith produces good works. Good works is fruit bearing.

Colossians 1:10,
- that we might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of the Lord

Faith that produces no fruit has no good works being dead, James 2:17

 

[Titus]

And faith is not obout obaying, Faith is about trusting

Back up this teaching with scripture.
Since you know better than me, give the verses that teach trust is not associated with obedience and obedience is separate apart from trust.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Back up this teaching with scripture.
Since you know better than me, give the verses that teach trust is not associated with obedience and obedience is separate apart from trust.

Mr Titus

Faith, greek "pisitis"

defenition.

A conviction of the truth of something, to have confidence in someone or something, To trust. to believe, have faith. to be assured.

I do not need to have the bible tell me something, I just need to see what it means

Now what do people who HAVE FAITH look like.. yes. then I can look to the word.

 

[Doug Brents]

I dont understand what you mean.
Please elaborate?

Faith produces good works. Good works is fruit bearing.

Colossians 1:10,
- that we might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of the Lord

Faith that produces no fruit has no good works being dead, James 2:17.

Certainly there are actions that are the result of salvation, but they are not the result of faith.

James tells us that actions are the soul of faith. Just as the body without the soul is dead, so faith without action is dead (James 2:26). Actions are not the fruit, the result, of faith, any more than the soul is the result of life (Gen 2:7).

 

[Titus]

Actions are not the fruit, the result, of faith, any more than the soul is the result of life (Gen 2:7).

False
These two examples do not equate.
It's TRUE that the soul itself doesn't create life.
That was never James point or what he was teaching in James 2:26.
James was using the physical body without the spirit to give an example of death not life.

James never used the example that the soul did not give life itself.

Again James was not teaching what gave life to the physical body.
James is teaching that a dead body without the spirit is dead.

James 2:26,
Dead bodies have no spirit = cannot be alive.
Contrast with,
Faith without obedience cannot be alive, therefore is dead also.

Your teaching:

Certainly there are actions that are the result of salvation, but they are not the result of faith

Yes actions are required by God as conditions to obtain Grace.

Now heres where you are wrong,

but they are not the result of faith.

True faith absolutely results in obedient works.

It true that good works are not the source of our faith. Faith comes by hearing the gospel,
Romans 10:17

But once a person develops faith from hearing.
That faith produces or results in good works,
James 2:18,
- I will show thee my faith by my works

No, works are not the fruit of faith. That is not Biblical in the least

False.
Faith produces good works therefore Faith produces fruit.

Colossians 1:18,
- that we might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work...

You taught works are not fruit of faith.
Yes they are.
A Christians good works is the fruit that faith produces.

If you mean a mans good works is not what produces faith. Then I agree.
The word, gospel is what produces faith and faith produces works/fruit.

 

[Complete]

'Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers,
to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle,
shewing all meekness unto all men.
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish,
disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures,
living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs
according to the hope of eternal life.
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly,
that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.
These things are good and profitable unto men.'
(Tit 3:1-8)

' ... ... ... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;
That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,'
(Eph 5:25-26)

 

[Titus]

'Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers,
to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle,
shewing all meekness unto all men.
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish,
disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures,
living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs
according to the hope of eternal life.
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly,
that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.
These things are good and profitable unto men.'
(Tit 3:1-8)

' ... ... ... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;
That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,'
(Eph 5:25-26)

Love scripture.
Do you agree that it is logically impossible to take all works out of salvation since belief itself is a work, John 6:28-28 ; 1John 3:23-24?

If so you understand that faith alone salvation must be human error. Therefore not the true gospel taught by Jesus or His apostles.

The true faith that is taught in Jesus' gospel is obedient faith, Romans 16:26.

The faith that saves is the faith that obeys, Hebrews 5:8-9.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Love scripture.
Do you agree that it is logically impossible to take all works out of salvation since belief itself is a work, John 6:28-28 ; 1John 3:23-24?

IT IS THE WORK OF GOD How many times do you have to be shown this before you accept this fact?
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 esus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Its Not your work. its not a work of merit because it did not cause you to merit salvation. it is the work of God

If so you understand that faith alone salvation must be human error. Therefore not the true gospel taught by Jesus or His apostles.

The true faith that is taught in Jesus' gospel is obedient faith, Romans 16:26.

The faith that saves is the faith that obeys, Hebrews 5:8-9.

TRUE FAITH SAVES (Past tense. actually in the greek perfect tense)

Those who are saved WORK.

You have the connection between faith and works and salvation totally messed up

 

[Complete]

Love scripture.
Do you agree that it is logically impossible to take all works out of salvation since belief itself is a work, John 6:28-28 ; 1John 3:23-24?

If so you understand that faith alone salvation must be human error. Therefore not the true gospel taught by Jesus or His apostles.

The true faith that is taught in Jesus' gospel is obedient faith, Romans 16:26.

The faith that saves is the faith that obeys, Hebrews 5:8-9.

Hello @Titus,

The word I quoted from Titus says :-

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs
according to the hope of eternal life.

* This is clear that salvation is entirely by the kindness and love of God our Saviour, and not by works of righteousness which we have done.: but we are saved unto good works:-
'For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.'
(Eph 2:10)

* I have looked at the references you have given, and conclude that faith itself is the obedience required: the worthy walk is something that comes via the sanctification of the Spirit as He works within the believer.

* Salvation is the gift of God, it cannot be earned, simply received by faith.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Titus]

The word I quoted from Titus says :-

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs
according to the hope of eternal life

So no obedience to be saved. Then no works involved in salvation.
Then, faith which is a work, John 6:28-29 and a direct commandment, 1John 3:23-24 is not required by God to be saved.
You have created a real problem.
You must explain how faith which Cleary is a work is not required to be saved if no works are involved in salvation.
Can you explain yourself?

Titus 3:4-5,
- but after the kindness and love of our Savior toward man appeared

Question: When did Gods love for man appear?
1. When we obeyed Him by doing/ working His works?
2. When we had no obedience no works?

Answer: Jesus' love was demonstrated on the cross when He gave up His very life.
For who?
Answer: I came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance, Luke 5:32.

So Jesus mercy, love, grace appeared for the wicked, the reprobate not the righteous.
That is who He died for.
We are all sinners.
2Timothy 1:9,
- who hath saved us and called us with an holy calling not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Before we ever did any good works Christ chose to save us.

Titus 3:4-5,
- but after that the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared toward man,
- not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

Question: Did Gods mercy, grace, love appear toward man because man did works of righteousness?

Answer: No.
That's all Paul is teaching Titus.
He is not teaching Titus no works are in salvation!!!
He is teaching Titus Jesus chose to save the world because we are dead in our sins and need a Savior.
His love was before we ever chose Him.
But do you have to choose Him to be saved? Yes.
If not, will God save the wicked reprobate who will not believe? 1John 3:23-24.
Will God save the ones who will not obey His commandments, Hebrews 5:8-9?

Or is His grace conditional?
God wont save those who dont want to be saved.

Conclusion: God chose to save us all. We are all wicked sinners at one point in our lives.
We did not do works to cause God to choose to save us.
But that does not eliminate our responsibility to believe and obey the gospel, John 3:16 .2 Thessalonians 1:8

It's easy to be deceived when you dont go by the context instead follow a pretext.