mailmandan
Active Member
I answered your question and I'm not lying yet you insist on calling me a liar anyway which tells me everything that I need to know about you.
James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?
- Thread starter Titus
- Start date
Titus
Active Member
Anyone with honesty who has read through your accusations against me and learned from my own teaching not hearsay, knows who is lying.
Since you're so honest.
Answer my question:
When a person obeys any, any, any, of Gods commandments.
Is it possible to obey any commandment and not do a good work?
Honest folks can answer simple straight forward questions.
But false teachers must claim they already did else their deception be exposed.
mailmandan
Active Member
Give it a rest Titus with your broken record question and your false accusations. I ALREADY ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. Your true colors are obvious.
Titus
Active Member
Quote it!!!
You are making empty false claims.
It's so easy to claim you've done something without giving any evidence.
If you dont like having someone force you to prove your accusations..
Then get off my articles.
Go pick on someone else.
Go tell lies about someone else teaching they believe they can work their way to heaven without Gods help.
John 8:44-45
mailmandan
Active Member
It sounds like you're having a meltdown.
I think it's time for us to take a break.
Titus
Active Member
Anyone how stalks someone like you do to me..It sounds like you're having a meltdown.
Then obsessively tells lies about what they believe.
Has a serious problem.
If this forum was set up to where you could block certain members from your articles.
I would have blocked you along time ago.
I cannot tolerate anyone who intentionally misrepresents another persons beliefs.
Only despicable reprobates tell lies about others to hurt their reputation.
You love to accuse me of teaching that I believe in meriting my salvation by my own works(works of merit based system of salvation).
Thst is a lie from the pit of hell.
You will answer to God on judgment day for trying to convince everyone on here that, that is what I believe.
DISGUSTING!!!!
John 8:44-45.
Stop picking on me.
Get off my posts.
Stop lying.
dwight92070
Active Member
If Paul said that he was not under the Law (1 Cor. 9:20), then why should we think that we ARE under the Law?There are certain folks who would argue that since Jesus did not “abolish” the Law, then the Law is still in effect and still binding on New Testament Christians. I've heard certain Seventh Day Adventists make that argument and those same folks have ended up teaching a false gospel of "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)
Here is one example below. This statement below was once made to me by an SDA on a Christian forum:
The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.
Now if the Law is still binding on us today, then it has not yet accomplished its purpose and been fulfilled. If the Law, as a legal system, is still binding on us today, then Jesus was wrong in claiming to fulfill it and His sacrifice on the cross was insufficient to save. Thank God, Jesus fulfilled the whole Law and now grants us His righteousness as a free gift. (Romans 5:15,16,18; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)
" .. though not being myself under the Law ..."
First of all, we couldn't be under the Law even if we wanted to be. The Law ended on the cross, when Jesus died, and "the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; ..." Matthew 27:50-51 The obligation to keep the Law no longer exists.
Second, the Law was ONLY GIVEN TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL, no other nation and no other people. Sure, if a Gentile wanted to serve and worship God, he could convert to Judaism, i.e. become a proselyte, get circumcised and essentially "become" a Jew and obey the Law.
Third, when God gave Israel the Law, they were becoming a new nation and every nation has laws. Also every nation has a leader. Sure Moses was their leader, but in Israel's case, their true leader was God Himself. Their form of government was a Theocracy, with God as "President", or more accurately, their King. No other nation has ever been a true Theocracy.
So if we're under the Law today, then when two people commit adultery, they both must be stoned to death.
If a son curses his father and his mother, he too must be stoned to death.
Those committing homosexuality and incest must be put to death.
Anyone not keeping the Sabbath day must be put to death.
So if the Christian church is under the Law today, are we required to stone these people?
All our male children must be circumcised, even though Paul strongly spoke out against the necessity of circumcision.
To say that we are under the Law today is false.
Their is NO temple today, so NONE of the temple laws can be kept, even if we wanted to. Even if the Jews were to build a third temple, it would be illegitimate and a further rejection of Jesus, who made the FINAL sacrifice.
Having said all that, we don't discard the Old Testament or treat it with contempt. Jesus said, quoting the Old Covenant, "Man shall not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:1-11
Paul said we receive instruction from the Law and the prophets. 1 Cor.10:6 and 11 He said, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:16
In fact there are several laws in the Old Covenant that are repeated in the New. This can be confusing. Are we under the Mosaic Law or not? Well, no we're not, but there were some laws that MUST be repeated in the New Covenant - usually because these are eternal principles that have ALWAYS existed, even BEFORE the Law of Moses. Murder, adultery, lying, stealing, coveting, idolatry, to name a few. Nine of the Ten Commandments are repeated. The Sabbath Law is not repeated - it was not in existence except for a short time before the Ten Commandments were given. Exodus 16:22-26
As I understand it, any Old Covenant Law that is repeated in the New Covenant, automatically becomes part of the New Covenant. The three Old Covenant quotes of Jesus in Matthew 4 are good examples. Another example is Acts 15:19-20. And there are more but these repeated laws are very few, compared to the total 613 laws of the entire Law.
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Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
seems to be you are getting under @Titus skin.
The truth hurts. we see by his reaction he is upset..
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
lol. Dan has not said one lie about you. And he is not stalking you my friend..
Like you do us?
No one is lieing about you my friend. What you are being accused of is factual. You believe in salvation by works (you call it faith plus works. but it does not matter)
Yet every post you make, you show you believe this very thing
You will answer to God on judgment day for rejecting his grace.
Aww poor guy.. You feel picked on.
well then admit the truth about what you teach, and stop telling people they are lying about you when they are not
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Interesting, I and many others have read his posts to you and we agreee with him.
Your the one lying right now by bearing false witness against Dan
what bearing does this have on salvation.
You keep asking a nonsensical question. Because neither Dan or anyone else who is trying to discuss this with you believes that our obedience is not works.
what we believe is we can not merit salvation by those works.
lol. Dude, you are a proud man. I think if I was you I would back off..
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
poor guy, does not like anyone who disagrees with him..It sounds like you're having a meltdown.
He should find a different forum if your going to get angry when someone disagrees with you
Doug Brents
Active Member
Please allow me to stick my nose into this for a second.
First off, there is no such thing as "salvation by faith plus works". There is only faith, and the misunderstanding many people have today that faith can be an internal only thing. Faith requires action or it is not real.
Second, we must always remember that all Scripture is true at the same time all the time. There is no option for picking this and that verse, but ignoring these other verses because we don't agree (or understand) what they are saying.
Third, there are three physical actions that different passages of Scripture state lead to or result in our receiving salvation:
Repentance (Acts 3:19)
Verbal, public confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10)
Baptism in water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, John 3:5)
These three actions are actions of faith that result in our receiving God's gift of salvation. They do not in any way "earn" salvation, make us deserving of salvation, or force God to give us salvation. They are simply the conditions God set for us receiving His gift, just as God set conditions for receiving many of His gifts in the OT:
Naaman had to dip in Jordan 7 times to receive cleansing from leprosy
The widow had to give her last piece of bread to the prophet in order to have her food last through the famine
The widow had to borrow jars and pour oil into them in order to sell the oil to pay her late husband's debts
The nation of Israel had to march around Jericho in order for the walls to fall down
The nation of Israel had to fight battles and take possession of the Promised Land, even though God had already given it to them.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Hold the phone here, you mean there is something that Dan and I agree on? Call the doctor, I think I am having a heart attack!There are certain folks who would argue that since Jesus did not “abolish” the Law, then the Law is still in effect and still binding on New Testament Christians. I've heard certain Seventh Day Adventists make that argument and those same folks have ended up teaching a false gospel of "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)
Here is one example below. This statement below was once made to me by an SDA on a Christian forum:
The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.
Now if the Law is still binding on us today, then it has not yet accomplished its purpose and been fulfilled. If the Law, as a legal system, is still binding on us today, then Jesus was wrong in claiming to fulfill it and His sacrifice on the cross was insufficient to save. Thank God, Jesus fulfilled the whole Law and now grants us His righteousness as a free gift. (Romans 5:15,16,18; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Anyone is welcome. I am not in the debate....
James. 2 :14-26
Faith and Works
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Precisely my point. Faith is dead, meaningless, worthless, ineffectual, and incapable of bringing salvation to us from God if it is inactive and does not contain actions.Anyone is welcome. I am not in the debate....
James. 2 :14-26
Faith and Works
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Also consider John 12:42
"Nevertheless many, even of the rulers, believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, so that they would not be excommunicated from the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of people rather than the approval of God."
Did these people really have faith in Jesus and desire His approval? Or was their faith more in man and their desire for His approval?
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
Why not just accept Ephesians 2:8,9 which reveals conclusively that Faith saves??
Doug Brents
Active Member
Of course Eph 2:8-9 reveals that faith saves. But that doesn't tell the whole story, does it? Faith is not just a mental exercise; it does not only happen in one's mind. Faith requires action or it really doesn't exist.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Tell me this.
What kind of action and is it ongoing perpetual action?
Are you talking about helping your neighbor and those in need, or giving testimony to everyone you talk to?
Certainly we can be baptized in front of a group of believers in church, but that does nothing to spread the word to those
who really need to hear it.
Please give me a detailed explanation on the action you feel is required?
Titus
Active Member
John 3:16,
- for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
The word believe is a verb not a noun.
In the Greek it means a continuous action not a one time event.
Salvation requires action.
The Bible only teaching obedient faith saves. Never just mentally accepting something as true.
True faith acts.
A person can have belief alone. Believe in Jesus and His death burial and ressurection.
But if he doesn't submit to Christ by following His commandments His belief is dead.
John 3:16- 36,
- he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth on him
Only an obedient faith saves,
Romans 16:26,
- but now is made manifest and by the scriptures of the prophets according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for obedience of faith
James 2:20,
- but wilt thou know O, foolish man that faith without works is dead
Hebrews 5:8-9,
- and being made perfect He became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey Him
I must accept what the word says.
Paul is speaking on works of merit. That is all he is teaching on with regards to works in these two verses that have been used as proof text for belief alone and no obedience to God.
Fact is the Ephesians who Paul wrote this epistle to were taught the gospel to them by Paul.
Paul did not tell then to be saved by just believing.
Claiming Paul is teaching faith alone in Ephesians 2:8-9 is perverting the gospel Paul preached to the Ephesians.
Acts 19:1-8,
- Paul having passed through the upper coast came to Ephesus and finding certain disciples...
- he said unto them have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed....
- and Paul,said into what were ye baptized and they said unto John's baptism
- then said Paul John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying unto the people that they should believe on Jesus which should come after John that is on Christ Jesus
- when they heard this(Paul's gospel) they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
- and when Paul had laid His hands on them the Holy Spirit came on them and they spake with tongues and prophesied
Now you can continue to claim Paul's gospel was faith alone to the Ephesians but the Bible teaches it was belief and obedience to Jesus' gospel.
Mark 16:15-16,
- and Jesus said unto them(apostles) Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature
- he that believeth and and and is baptized(obedience) will be saved
but he that believeth not will be condemned
No need to be baptized if you don't believe because baptism without belief is not the gospel of Christ.
Christ's gospel requires belief and obedience. Both must be present or God will not save the person.
Since faith is the cause of the believer to take action by submitting to baptism.
This shows baptism is literally an act of faith.
Anyone who teaches one does not need to obey Jesus' gospel commands is teaching a false gospel.
Matthew 28:18-20,
- go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all, all, all, things whatsoever I have commanded you and lo I am with you even unto the end of the world(His return)
The very last words of Jesus before He left this earth was to preach the gospel and baptize every believer.
Faith onlyist try to teach baptism does not matter to God only belief.
Why would the last words of God on earth put such great emphasis on baptism if it was not extremely important to Him?
Also Jesus did command in His gospel that everyone must render obedience to all His commandments.
Yet so many teach to be saved obeying His commandments are not essential.
I will believe the Bible over what doctrines men develop in their traditions.
The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.
Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone that saith unto Me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that DOETH(obedience) the will of My Father which is in heaven
James teaches the same message as Jesus,
James 1:25,
- but whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty and continueth therein he being not a forgetful hearer but a DOER of the work(obedience) this man shall be blessed in his work
1John 2:3-4,
- and hereby we know God if we keep His commandments
- he that saith I know God and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him
John James and Jesus all agree. The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.
- for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
The word believe is a verb not a noun.
In the Greek it means a continuous action not a one time event.
Salvation requires action.
The Bible only teaching obedient faith saves. Never just mentally accepting something as true.
True faith acts.
A person can have belief alone. Believe in Jesus and His death burial and ressurection.
But if he doesn't submit to Christ by following His commandments His belief is dead.
John 3:16- 36,
- he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth on him
Only an obedient faith saves,
Romans 16:26,
- but now is made manifest and by the scriptures of the prophets according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for obedience of faith
James 2:20,
- but wilt thou know O, foolish man that faith without works is dead
Hebrews 5:8-9,
- and being made perfect He became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey Him
I dont need to accept a position that twists the meaning of scripture.
I must accept what the word says.
Paul is speaking on works of merit. That is all he is teaching on with regards to works in these two verses that have been used as proof text for belief alone and no obedience to God.
Fact is the Ephesians who Paul wrote this epistle to were taught the gospel to them by Paul.
Paul did not tell then to be saved by just believing.
Claiming Paul is teaching faith alone in Ephesians 2:8-9 is perverting the gospel Paul preached to the Ephesians.
Acts 19:1-8,
- Paul having passed through the upper coast came to Ephesus and finding certain disciples...
- he said unto them have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed....
- and Paul,said into what were ye baptized and they said unto John's baptism
- then said Paul John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying unto the people that they should believe on Jesus which should come after John that is on Christ Jesus
- when they heard this(Paul's gospel) they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
- and when Paul had laid His hands on them the Holy Spirit came on them and they spake with tongues and prophesied
Now you can continue to claim Paul's gospel was faith alone to the Ephesians but the Bible teaches it was belief and obedience to Jesus' gospel.
Mark 16:15-16,
- and Jesus said unto them(apostles) Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature
- he that believeth and and and is baptized(obedience) will be saved
but he that believeth not will be condemned
No need to be baptized if you don't believe because baptism without belief is not the gospel of Christ.
Christ's gospel requires belief and obedience. Both must be present or God will not save the person.
Since faith is the cause of the believer to take action by submitting to baptism.
This shows baptism is literally an act of faith.
Anyone who teaches one does not need to obey Jesus' gospel commands is teaching a false gospel.
Matthew 28:18-20,
- go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all, all, all, things whatsoever I have commanded you and lo I am with you even unto the end of the world(His return)
The very last words of Jesus before He left this earth was to preach the gospel and baptize every believer.
Faith onlyist try to teach baptism does not matter to God only belief.
Why would the last words of God on earth put such great emphasis on baptism if it was not extremely important to Him?
Also Jesus did command in His gospel that everyone must render obedience to all His commandments.
Yet so many teach to be saved obeying His commandments are not essential.
I will believe the Bible over what doctrines men develop in their traditions.
The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.
Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone that saith unto Me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that DOETH(obedience) the will of My Father which is in heaven
James teaches the same message as Jesus,
James 1:25,
- but whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty and continueth therein he being not a forgetful hearer but a DOER of the work(obedience) this man shall be blessed in his work
1John 2:3-4,
- and hereby we know God if we keep His commandments
- he that saith I know God and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him
John James and Jesus all agree. The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.
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Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
lol. Remember, at the point one saved, they are justified. The point that one is saved, is the point in faith they call out to jesus
That is the action required to be saved. to repent of your good works and your sin, and call out like the tax collector
Really?
Funny, we have been saying this since day one, yet you keep attacking us as if we do not believe this.
We are not saved by mere belief, I can believ something yet not trust that something.
We are saved BY GRACE through faith. NOT OF WORKS
lol. Here you go teaching works again.. Its all about you. and what you do. not about Christ and what he did.
Again, as you stated above true faith acts..
A child of God obeys God because they trust him. Not because like you they are trying to keep their salvation.
lol Notice how this user continues to leave pauls words out.
Romans 4, No works period
Romans 11. Grace alone. again, no works period
2 Tim 2. Again no works period
Titus 3. Not even our good works save us. But Gods mercy alone
Yes. Gods people act. BECAUSE they have faith.
and BECAUSE they have been born of God. made into a new creation. Sin is now poison to them, a Dog returns to his vomit because he is still a dog. A child of God is no longer a dog.
Oh if this user only trusted God.
We can be confident of this very thing, He who began a good work WILL COMPLETE IT.
As this user why he is not confident of this thing, and thinks he must complete it himself?
Yet you do. Not only do you do this. You mock God and his children. Shame on you
A work of merit is a work done to earn a reward. to merit a prize or wage.
When you claim you must do these works to get saved, stay saved or not lose salvation.
You are claiming you must do works of merit.
we do not work to merit anything, we work because GOD LOVED US, so WE IN TURN LOVE OTHERS
ok this use has a major reading problem
For it is by grace we have been saved.
the firs partt shows us it is grace that saved us. Grace is Gods unmerited favor. it can not be merited by wrks.
But God will not force it on us.
So we MUST receive it in faith (John 6, it is the work of God we believe) Faith is not a work of merit. because it is God who brought us to the point of faith he did the work. He gets all the glory (not a calvinistic way, we still had to in free will chose.
Then paul makes it clear
1. Salvation is not of our own doing
2. Not of works lest anyone should boast.
Can someone ask this user why he keeps boasting of his works. acting more like the pharisee pumping his chest. and not the tax collector (sinner) who fell on his knees?
lol.
Romans 4, Romans 11, 2 Tim 2, Titus 3, Eph 2, Eph 1.
How much more do we have to go.
Even Jesus did nto teach we had to be water baptized to be saved.
Good God.
If this user wants to merit salvation by getting water baptized. I guess he is free to do this (we have free will)
those of us who Got baptized because we recieved the baptism only God can baptize us with, we know and understand the power of God
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