James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Titus]

Hello, JLB,

Paul taught the law of faith in the book of Romans.
Do you understand how the law (principle) of faith operates?
The entire book of Romans is contextually framed by this principle of faith.
James and Paul teach exactly the same principle of faith

I'm very learned on law.

Romans chapter 4. What law is Paul teaching in this chapter?

Romans 4:4,
- now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt

Which law caused debt not grace when worked?

 

[Titus]

YOU STILL JUST DON'T GET IT. Sigh.

Still dodging every question you can that easily exposes your gospel as error.
Try to grow a backbone and be honest for a change.
Is obeying any of Gods commandments good works?
Or can one obey Gods commandments and not do a good work?

Simple questions that you refuse to answer.
We both know why.

John 3:19

 

[Titus]

Dan repeatedly perverts what I believe.
He compulsively teaches I teach merit based salvation.
Which is a lie that he is obsessed with telling everywhere he follows me.

Dan also has a habit of perverting James 2 claiming James is teaching Abraham is justified before men.

Notice James uses the story of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac.
James teaches Abraham's work of sacrificing his son is what justified him.

It was before God he was justified.
Not Dan's perverted doctrine that it was before men.

Read the account in Genesis 22:1-19.
We learn NO MEN WERE THERE WHEN ABRAHAM SACRIFICED HIS SON ISAAC.
Only God Abraham his son, who had no idea what was taking place, and the angel of the Lord.
Two young men servants were left behind. So they did not witness Abraham sacrificing His son.
The only witnesses were God and the angel of the Lord.
This proves Abraham's justification by his works of obedience was before
God not man.
This is the real context in the chapter.
Dan's religion is a religion of lies.
Man made fables.

 

[FreeInChrist]

No friend both men have the Holy Spirit guiding them.
You cannot believe they are contradicting one another.
If they do only a fool would believe the Bible is from God.
I would loose my faith if the bible contradicts itself.

Then why the difference?

James 2:20 NASB95

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Paul Romans 4:5-6;

5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

and Ephesians 2:8,9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[mailmandan]

You just admitted Abraham was not saved by faith alone without realizing it.

False. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. 6 God imputes righteousness apart from works. Crystal clear. You just refuse to see it.

James 2:24 does not teach Abraham was saved by faith alone. It teaches the opposite of salvation by faith alone.

James 2:24 does not teach that Abraham was saved by works. It teaches that Abraham was shown to be righteous by works. We already know from Paul that Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith in God alone. (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-3)

Genesis 15:6 is God counting Abraham's faith as righteousness which is salvation.

Amen! Just as we see in Romans 4:2-3.

Then James teaches the conclusion of Abraham's faith that justified him before God, Genesis 15:6 was not alone.

James 2:21-24 is not about Abraham's faith being accounted to him for righteousness/salvation part 2. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham in Genesis 22 did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous. Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

James quoted Genesis 15:6 where God justified Abraham and accounted His faith to him as righteousness.
Therefore James is teaching Abraham was justified before God in chapter 2.

Yes, faith was accounted to Abraham as righteousness in Genesis 15:6, but not in James 2. Abraham was shown to be righteous by his works in James 2.

It's a ridiculous position to teach Genesis 15:6 is not justification before God.
This is what James is teaching about Abraham's faith.

It's a ridiculous position to teach that Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness twice. This only happened once in Genesis 15:6.

James 2:21-24,
-seest thou how by faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect
and the scripture(Genesis 15:6) was fulfilled which saith Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

That has nothing to do with justification before men. Unless you want to claim that is what is taking place in Genesis 15:6.

Being justified (shown to be righteous) is before God and men. The term "justified" has more than one meaning, depending on the context.

The Greek word for "justified" is dikaióō

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context of James 2.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Really have you never paid attention to what James says that Abraham's faith and works made his faith perfect. This kind of faith is what fulfilled the scripture which saith, Genesis 15:6.

I have paid very close attention and once again, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

God justified Abraham therefore accounted His faith as righteousness, Genesis 15:6.

Amen! Also see Romans 4:2-3.

This is what James literally says. You deny this.

Waste of time.

Abraham's faith was not accounted to him for righteousness twice. Only once in Genesis 15:6 and then his faith was shown to be righteous in James 2:21-24. I simply deny your eisegesis that culminates in salvation by works.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan repeatedly perverts what I believe.

I know what you believe. It's obvious that you believe man is saved by faith and works. You teach that "justified by works" in James 2:24 means accounted as righteous by works/saved by works. Now tell me I'm wrong.

He compulsively teaches I teach merit based salvation.
Which is a lie that he is obsessed with telling everywhere he follows me.

You seem to equate merit-based salvation only with salvation by perfect law keeping. Even if we were only saved by works in part then we would still merit salvation in part. You can't have it both ways. Salvation by faith + your personal definition of non-meritorious works is still merit-based salvation (at least in part). I've heard folks in the CoC say that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works and I've heard Roman Catholics say that we are saved by faith "infused" with works, yet those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation whether you realize it or not.

Dan also has a habit of perverting James 2 claiming James is teaching Abraham is justified before men.

James 2 is teaching Abraham is justified (shown to be righteous) before God and men. Paul is teaching Abraham is justified (accounted as righteous) before God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Notice James uses the story of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac.
James teaches Abraham's work of sacrificing his son is what justified him.

In James 2:21, notice the accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham in Genesis 22 did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous. *Hermeneutics.

It was before God he was justified.
Not Dan's perverted doctrine that it was before men.

It was before God in person and before men who read the account in scripture. I can see that Abraham was shown to be righteous in Genesis 22 when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar by reading about it in scripture without actually being there when it happened and witnessing it in person. So can all men who read about it in scripture.

Read the account in Genesis 22:1-19.
We learn NO MEN WERE THERE WHEN ABRAHAM SACRIFICED HIS SON ISAAC.

So? How many men over the years have read about this in scripture? Abraham was still shown to be righteous before men through the scriptures.

Only God Abraham his son, who had no idea what was taking place, and the angel of the Lord.
Two young men servants were left behind. So they did not witness Abraham sacrificing His son.
The only witnesses were God and the angel of the Lord.
This proves Abraham's justification by his works of obedience was before
God not man.
This is the real context in the chapter.
Dan's religion is a religion of lies.
Man made fables.

Abraham's works of obedience in Genesis 22 were not accounted to Abraham as righteousness but he was shown to be righteous before God in person when it happened and before men every time this scripture is read. Titus' religion is a religion of merit-based works salvation (at least in part) which is a man-made doctrine.

 

[Titus]

False. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. 6 God imputes righteousness apart from works. Crystal clear. You just refuse to see it.

This is not the book of James!!!! Your intentionally ignore context to fit your made up pretext.

Abraham's faith was not accounted to him for righteousness twice. Only once in Genesis 15:6 and then his faith was shown to be righteous in James 2:21-24.

James is quoting Genesis 15:6!!!! You just admitted Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6.
James IS TEACHING ON GENESIS 15:6!!!!

What is ridiculous is you demanding James is teaching justification before men as you put it, shown to be righteous, when NO MEN WERE THERE TO WITNESS ABRAHAM SACRIFICING HIS SON!!!!
Just keep teaching fables Dan. Teach them to someone else, you are a waste of my time.

Abraham's faith was not accounted to him for righteousness twice.

Seems not to make sense to you because you read the scriptures with the presupposition that man is only saved at the moment of belief then from that moment on they are OSAS.
So in your mind one is made righteous/justified once.
But in the Bible it teaches a person can be justified by God then chose by their own free will to leave God, go back into living in sin. From that point this same man is no longer justified made righteous by God. He must repent of his sins, 1John 1:8-9. To once again walk in the light. Then and only then will God pardon his sins thereby making him justified once again.

I know in your religion you can live in sin and stay justified before God if you must believe once.
But in the real gospel of Jesus Christ one must continue in faithfulness to Jesus to remain justified in Gods sight, hence Abraham being justified by God when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice.
Your beliefs is why you cannot understand James.
If Abraham was in your religion he could have refused to sacrifice his son and remained justified/righteous before God. But iin the real world that is impossible.
God requires faithfulness to the end of our lives, Revelation 2:10.

 

[civic]

God loves all creation before the world.
1John 2:2,
- and God is the propitiation for our sins(elect) and not ours only but also for the sins of the whole world(non-elect).

Your understanding of Ephesians 1:3-4 is error. Therefore it does not agree with your conclusions.


You just proved me correct once again.
No light no life no immortality before one hears believes and obeys the gospel.
You teach you are in the light before the gospel.
Your scriptures you referenced proves you only are in the light through the power of the gospel.
You need help with comprehension.


John 3:17,
- for God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved

You teach the opposite of the word of God. You scare me.
You're wasting your time. The more you teach the stronger my conviction grows that you are lost.


I've been too gracious with you.
I wish to never hear another word of your false teaching.
It angers God and is wearisome to listen to over and over.

Galatians 1:8-9,
- but though we or an angel from heaven Preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you let him be accursed



You are just as confused as when you began.
Your religion does not come to truth through study!!!!
Its miraculously given directly by the Holy Spirit.
Since you know you can be wrong, shows you don't have faith in what you teach.
You cannot be miraculously guided by the Holy Spirit if you could be mistaken on doctrine.
Where is your common sense?

Also there is not doctrines. There is doctrine, 2 John 3:9-11.

I know I can be wrong because God did not miraculously zap faith into me causing a miraculous understanding of His gospel.
The gospel must be learned through what is written. Christianity is a taught religion.
1John 5:13,
- these things I have  written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that ye may know that ye have eternal life and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

Why should I believe you when you dont fully believe what you teach.
Reformed theology doesn't have elect not knowing if they are elect. It is supposed to be a miraculous knowledge that is given. A full assurrity that you know your heart has been miraculously changed.

That's the theology. But here is the reality.
Calvinist really dont even know if they are elect. You cannot know because there is nothing you can do.
That's why all your study is head knowledge. That has nothing to do with the religion you have accepted.
That's why you convince me you dont know the truth because you contradict the very doctrines you are vainly trying to get me to believe in.

There is no assurance in calvinism. The true gospel one can know how to be saved by obeying Jesus' gospel.
In calvinism you literally can do nothing but try and convince yourself you have been saved.
Only on judgment day can you really know you are saved or lost.

In reality it is a religion based on emotion.
If you get a strong enough feeling that the Holy Spirit entered your heart, you just feel so strongly you are saved.

Then by works you prove to yourself you've been transformed.
So without works no evidence of salvation.

This also is a logical contradiction.
You claim no works to be saved but no works and you never were saved.
Therefore the only one going to heaven are those who produce good works.

See even in your religion that denies works to be saved you must produce works or you never were saved.
That logically follows that EVERYONE MUST PRODUCE WORKS TO BE SAVED.
No works no salvation.

Inconsistent, contradictory illogical reasoning all = man made doctrine.

You keep teaching and that contradicts your religion that teaches your teaching plays no part in my election.
ITS UNCONDITIONAL.
Wheres your common sense?

Scripture does say there are “ doctrines “ of demons.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[mailmandan]

Still dodging every question you can that easily exposes your gospel as error.

Wishful thinking on your part.

Try to grow a backbone and be honest for a change.

I have been honest.

Is obeying any of Gods commandments good works?

Yes.

Or can one obey Gods commandments and not do a good work?

Obeying God's commandments (1 John 2:3) is doing good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Do these good works in Ephesians 2:10 "precede" having been saved through faith or do they "follow" having been saved through faith? (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Simple questions that you refuse to answer.
We both know why.

I have not refused to answer those questions. We both know why you are asking me those questions. You are trying to turn belief/faith into just another good work in a series of good works in a quest to obtain salvation by good works. It's easier to mask a works based false gospel behind turning belief/faith into just another good work. You also confuse commands by God to obtain salvation with commands by God after we have already obtained salvation. It's all just a works salvation chopped salad to you.

John 3:19

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. I believe in Him Titus and not in self, false religion, a works based false gospel. I am trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation.

John 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not evil/sin. (1 John 3:9-10) Embracing a works based false gospel is not coming to the light, Titus. I came to the light many years ago when I chose to believe in Him/place my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and I never looked back. Praise God!

 

[Titus]

Then why the difference?

James 2:20 NASB95

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Paul Romans 4:5-6;

5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

and Ephesians 2:8,9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I appreciate you asking questions instead of jumping directly to accusations.
This is why I teach on here, to have honest dialogue.


This question is excellent.
If a person does not know the context on Paul's teaching about works in Romans and James' teaching on works in his book.
Then it is literally impossible to understand works.

First, one must learn that the new testament does not have only one kind of works.
There are all kinds of works. Failure to know what works are under discussion in context of said verses will confuse the reader everytime.

There are good works and evil works. The lost and the saved can both work good and evil works. These are the two categories all works must be put into.

In James chapter two, James is teaching on good works.
In Paul's letter to the Romans, specifically Romans chapter 4. Paul is teaching on the works done in the law of Moses. Since this context is Christian jews trying to continue in keeping the law of Moses, these works are condemned by Paul. No born again christian(jew or gentile) is required by God to work the commandments in the law of Moses.
In fact these born again Jews in Romans were thinking still that they could merit their salvation by working the law of Moses. That makes what they are doing their works in this context(Romans 4) works of merit. They think they can earn their salvation by keeping the law of Moses.
Paul has to get these wrong beliefs out of their heads.
So Paul uses the perfect example of their father Abraham, who was never under the law of Moses yet was saved.
By using Abraham as the example. He is proving to these Jewish Christians that the law of Moses cannot justify them in fact Abraham was never required to keep the law of Moses yet was justified.
Paul teaches Abraham was justified by faith not law keeping. Exactly the same way christians are justified before God today, by faith. But not faith alone but obedient faith i.e. faith that obeys God.
Romans 1:5 ; 16:25,
- but now is made manifest and by the scriptures of the prophets according to the commandment of the everlasting God made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

- for I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the gentiles obedient by word and works

This is the faith Paul teaches all throughout Romans. An obedient faith not faith alone(not working Gods commandments).

You must learn if you have not already that Christs new testament law which is His gospel replaced the old law of Moses. Therefore Paul is teaching both jew and gentile that under the faith(the gospel of Christ) one must work the commandments in the new testament now.
And stop working the law of the old testament law of Moses.
Galatians 6:2,
- bear ye one another' burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ

Romans 3:27,
- where is boasting then, it is excluded by what law of works(law of Moses) Nay
but by the law of faith(the law of the Gospel of Jesus Christ)

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans chapter 4 is Paul teaching against the works of the old law of Moses. These works cannot save. If they could men would boast of themselves meriting salvation.
Therefore these verses are speaking of meritorious works which are evil,
Ephesians 2:8-9,
- not of works lest any man may boast.
You see these are boastful works!!! Their condemned friend.

Romans 4:2,
- for if Abraham were justified by works(law of Moses) ,
he hath whereof to  boast but not before God
Once again Paul is teaching of meriting works by keeping the law of Moses which is impossible and sinful to believe one could accomplish salvation through law keeping.
One could boast if they could work their way to heaven.

James is teaching of the works in the new testament gospel of Jesus Christ.
These works are never merit or boastful works.
These works are simply obeying Jesus.
Therefore they cannot earn salvation.
All they do is meet Gods conditions to be saved by His grace and mercy.
Gods grace has always been conditional.
For example you must believe to recieve Gods grace. Unbelievers do not meet Gods conditions to be saved, justified, made righteous by Gods free gift of grace.

James 2:24,
- ye see then how that by works(obedience to Jesus' new testament gospel) a man is justified and not by faith alone(faith that never obeyed the gospel just believed like the demons.

James 2:19-20,
- but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith(alone no obedience) without works(obedience) is dead.

That is why James and Paul never contradict themselves friend. They harmonize perfectly.
Got to go worship our King, Savior, bye for now.

 

[mailmandan]

This is not the book of James!!!! Your intentionally ignore context to fit your made up pretext.

Oh, the irony.

James is quoting Genesis 15:6!!!! You just admitted Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6.
James IS TEACHING ON GENESIS 15:6!!!!

James is simply pointing out that when Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6 and it was shown to be righteous in James 2:21. James is not teaching that Abraham was accounted as righteous a second time by works. (Romans 4:2-3) You need a new set of bifocals that only the Holy Spirit can provide.

What is ridiculous is you demanding James is teaching justification before men as you put it, shown to be righteous, when NO MEN WERE THERE TO WITNESS ABRAHAM SACRIFICING HIS SON!!!!
Just keep teaching fables Dan. Teach them to someone else, you are a waste of my time.

As I already explained, by Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac on the altar, he was shown to be righteous before God who witnessed it personally and before men every time this account in scripture is read. I did not need to witness this event personally to see that Abraham was shown to be righteous. I can see for myself that Abraham was shown to be righteous by works by reading about it in scripture.

Seems not to make sense to you because you read the scriptures with the presupposition that man is only saved at the moment of belief then from that moment on they are OSAS.

I believe Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. None of this makes sense to you because you read the scriptures with the presupposition that salvation is obtained and maintained by works. So do Roman Catholics and Mormons.

So in your mind one is made righteous/justified once.

Absolutely. Justified (accounted as righteous) only once.

But in the Bible it teaches a person can be justified by God then chose by their own free will to leave God, go back into living in sin. From that point this same man is no longer justified made righteous by God.

False. (Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; 1 John 3:9)

He must repent of his sins, 1John 1:8-9. To once again walk in the light. Then and only then will God pardon his sins thereby making him justified once again.

That is not what John is teaching in 1 John 1:8-9. Notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

Certain people seem to misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory of every sin) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin we are toast!" Who could actually write an exhaustive list of every sin they have ever committed or ever will commit? Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17)

Believers "confess" (Greek - homologeó) speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast with saying that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. (1 John 1:8-10)

I know in your religion you can live in sin and stay justified before God if you must believe once.

False. Straw man argument. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

But in the real gospel of Jesus Christ one must continue in faithfulness to Jesus to remain justified in Gods sight, hence Abraham being justified by God when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice.

So, type 2 works salvation or salvation by works at the back door according to you. One could define faithfulness just about any way they want in order to accommodate their biased church doctrine. Only those with genuine faith continue in faithfulness to Jesus and not to false religion.

Your beliefs is why you cannot understand James.

I understand James (James 2:14-24) and Paul (Romans 4:2-6) just fine. It's you who does not understand because you teach works salvation (at least in part).

If Abraham was in your religion he could have refused to sacrifice his son and remained justified/righteous before God. But iin the real world that is impossible.

Straw man argument. Since Abraham truly believed God in Genesis 15:5-6 then refusing to sacrifice his son was not going to happen. Just like Noah truly believed God about flooding the earth so refusing to build the ark was not going to happen for him either. Folks in the works salvation NOSAS camp are always trying to falsely accuse believers in the OSAS camp of promoting a license for immorality which I certainly DO NOT promote. Eternal security of the believer is not about a license to sin. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the RCC, I had absolutely no assurance of salvation and was miserable!

God requires faithfulness to the end of our lives, Revelation 2:10.

One could define this to mean just about anything. For works-salvationists, it typically involves maintaining salvation by works.
Revelation 2:10 is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there!

In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death. Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death no matter how so-called faithfulness they set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain attempt to receive salvation based on works.

 

[Complete]

Many that deny that works are necessary for justification claim that James 2:24 speaks only of appearing righteous before people, not before God.

'And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
Abraham believed God,
and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.'
(Jas 2:23-24)

Hello @Titus,

I have not read through this thread, so I may simply be repeating what has already been said, I hope not.

This was quoted from Genesis 15:6, and was further fulfilled in Genesis 22:10 and testified to in James 2:15-18. Abraham believed God, when He told him that he, Abraham, would produce an heir, and that his descendants would be more in number than the stars of the heavens. So when tested by God to slay his son, he was prepared to carry it out, for he believed in the resurrection of the dead: So believed that God would restore his son back to him again that his promise be fulfilled (Heb. 11:19).

James 2:24 states that a person is justified. Not seen as justified, not shown as justified but justified.
Paul uses the same Greek word for justified in Romans 5:1 that James uses in James 2:24.

Also there is no mention of men or human observers in the verse.
The subject of chapter 2 is what makes a person righteous not how they appear to others.

James is teaching on salvation not appearance.
James 2:14,
- what does it profit my brethren if someone says he has faith but does not have works can faith alone save him

James is discussing what kind of faith saves not what works justifies before men.

James 2:24, Romans 5:1
- you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Paul uses the same Greek word.
Romans 5:1,
- therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Paul and James harmonize perfectly.
Justified by faith.
Justified by works.

Once you learn what true Biblical saving faith is. You no longer struggle with reconciling James teaching with Pauls.

John joins them together perfectly.
John 3:36,
- he who believes in the Son has eternal life but he who does not  obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28-29)

The obedience required is to believe on, 'The One Whom He hath sent.'

Romans 5:1 justified by faith
James 2:24 justified by works.

Faith without works is dead. Justified by faith that is not dead but living, working out of love.

James teaches works are faith acting in obedience. This faith justifies.
Likewise Paul teaches faith that justifies works through love.
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision not uncircumcision means anything but faith working through love

Ephesians 2:8-9 salvation by grace through faith.
Hebrews 5:8-9 eternal life by obedience to Jesus.

- for by grace you have been saved through faith....
- Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him

That's enough to know that the faith that saves is the faith that obeys.
James and Paul both teach the same obedient faith that Justifies before God.
Both reject faith alone apart from obedient works.

James 2:24,
- you see that a man is justified by works(obedience) and not by faith alone(belief that does not work obedience)

* The obedience of faith, is to believe on Him Whom God has sent.

* Love one another as He He has loved us.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[JLB]

Hello, JLB,

I'm very learned on law.

Romans chapter 4. What law is Paul teaching in this chapter?

Romans 4:4,
- now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt

Which law caused debt not grace when worked?

Ok. Good.

The law of faith is found just before Chapter 4 and I believe Paul had it in mind when writing Chapter 4.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:27-31

In this dissertation Paul is referring to the “works” of law of Moses, because he qualifies this by saying…
is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.


So when we see the word “works” we must determine what the writer is referring to.


The works of the law of Moses
The work that earns a wage
The works of righteousness; good works

The work of obedience; the obedience of faith


As I mentioned, the entire book of Romans was contextually framed in this principle of faith referred to as… the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26 KJV


By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Romans 1:5 KJV

 

[Titus]

Ok. Good.

The law of faith is found just before Chapter 4 and I believe Paul had it in mind when writing Chapter 4.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:27-31

In this dissertation Paul is referring to the “works” of law of Moses, because he qualifies this by saying…
is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.


So when we see the word “works” we must determine what the writer is referring to.


The works of the law of Moses
The work that earns a wage
The works of righteousness; good works

The work of obedience; the obedience of faith


As I mentioned, the entire book of Romans was contextually framed in this principle of faith referred to as… the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26 KJV


By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Romans 1:5 KJV

Excellent work,
I can say amen to all of this.

Yes, Paul is teaching these Christians to follow only the new testament law of Christ, in Romans.
Referred to The Faith.

I appreciate your work in studying the scriptures.
It's evident you have put in effort to understand Paul's teaching in the book of Romans.

 

[mailmandan]

I appreciate you asking questions instead of jumping directly to accusations.
This is why I teach on here, to have honest dialogue.


This question is excellent.
If a person does not know the context on Paul's teaching about works in Romans and James' teaching on works in his book.
Then it is literally impossible to understand works.

First, one must learn that the new testament does not have only one kind of works.
There are all kinds of works. Failure to know what works are under discussion in context of said verses will confuse the reader everytime.

There are good works and evil works. The lost and the saved can both work good and evil works. These are the two categories all works must be put into.

In James chapter two, James is teaching on good works.
In Paul's letter to the Romans, specifically Romans chapter 4. Paul is teaching on the works done in the law of Moses. Since this context is Christian jews trying to continue in keeping the law of Moses, these works are condemned by Paul. No born again christian(jew or gentile) is required by God to work the commandments in the law of Moses.
In fact these born again Jews in Romans were thinking still that they could merit their salvation by working the law of Moses. That makes what they are doing their works in this context(Romans 4) works of merit. They think they can earn their salvation by keeping the law of Moses.
Paul has to get these wrong beliefs out of their heads.
So Paul uses the perfect example of their father Abraham, who was never under the law of Moses yet was saved.
By using Abraham as the example. He is proving to these Jewish Christians that the law of Moses cannot justify them in fact Abraham was never required to keep the law of Moses yet was justified.
Paul teaches Abraham was justified by faith not law keeping. Exactly the same way christians are justified before God today, by faith. But not faith alone but obedient faith i.e. faith that obeys God.
Romans 1:5 ; 16:25,
- but now is made manifest and by the scriptures of the prophets according to the commandment of the everlasting God made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

- for I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the gentiles obedient by word and works

This is the faith Paul teaches all throughout Romans. An obedient faith not faith alone(not working Gods commandments).

You must learn if you have not already that Christs new testament law which is His gospel replaced the old law of Moses. Therefore Paul is teaching both jew and gentile that under the faith(the gospel of Christ) one must work the commandments in the new testament now.
And stop working the law of the old testament law of Moses.
Galatians 6:2,
- bear ye one another' burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ

Romans 3:27,
- where is boasting then, it is excluded by what law of works(law of Moses) Nay
but by the law of faith(the law of the Gospel of Jesus Christ)

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans chapter 4 is Paul teaching against the works of the old law of Moses. These works cannot save. If they could men would boast of themselves meriting salvation.
Therefore these verses are speaking of meritorious works which are evil,
Ephesians 2:8-9,
- not of works lest any man may boast.
You see these are boastful works!!! Their condemned friend.

Romans 4:2,
- for if Abraham were justified by works(law of Moses) ,
he hath whereof to  boast but not before God
Once again Paul is teaching of meriting works by keeping the law of Moses which is impossible and sinful to believe one could accomplish salvation through law keeping.
One could boast if they could work their way to heaven.

James is teaching of the works in the new testament gospel of Jesus Christ.
These works are never merit or boastful works.
These works are simply obeying Jesus.
Therefore they cannot earn salvation.
All they do is meet Gods conditions to be saved by His grace and mercy.
Gods grace has always been conditional.
For example you must believe to recieve Gods grace. Unbelievers do not meet Gods conditions to be saved, justified, made righteous by Gods free gift of grace.

James 2:24,
- ye see then how that by works(obedience to Jesus' new testament gospel) a man is justified and not by faith alone(faith that never obeyed the gospel just believed like the demons.

James 2:19-20,
- but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith(alone no obedience) without works(obedience) is dead.

That is why James and Paul never contradict themselves friend. They harmonize perfectly.
Got to go worship our King, Savior, bye for now.

This is the same argument that I hear from Roman Catholics as well in an effort to "get around" the truth that salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?"

Now to give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

*Now which good works could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

So when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses. In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. Not saved by works is not merely limited to specific works of the law of Moses, but includes works in general.

So, the saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law of Moses) argument is bogus. Certain folks seem determined to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works and end up teaching salvation by faith + their personal definition of non-meritorious works. It's a very cunning false gospel.

 

[Titus]

is the same argument that I hear from Roman Catholics as well in an effort to "get around" the truth that salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Belief is a work, John 6:28-29.

For all that might choose to suffer and read through Dan's lies about me....
I've asked Dan if it is possible to obey any of Jesus' new testament commandments and not do a good work.

He refuses to answer this simple question.

Instead he says works AFTER one is saved when obeying commandments are good works.
Then lies and says he answered my question.

My question was never after salvation.
My question has always been any, any, any, commandment obeyed is it possible that one can obey Gods commandments and that obedience not be a good work?
He refuses to answer.
We both know why.
Dan needs to find someone else to pick on.

All commandments when obeyed are good works.
Belief is a commandment that must be obeyed, 1John 3:23-24.
Therefore when one believes one has obeyed one of the commandments in the new testament.
Obeying a commandment is working a commandment.

James 2:24 works of obedience, aka obedient faith.
Dan's religion of no works of any kind even non meritorious works like obeying the commandment to believe, supposedly are not works according to Dan.
This is why he cannot answer simple questions else he would expose himself as the liar that he is.
His false gospel is easy to expose as man made error. A contradiction against 1John 3:23-24; John 6:28-29.

Dan's indoctrinated into the false idea that works are filthy, dirty and always meritorious even though the Bible never teaches belief in Christ is a work of merit.
James 2:24, no merit involved only obedience in doing what God says to do.

So there is a difference between works one does to earn salvation versus obedience to God's will. This is a distinction many refuse to make and seem to want to make obedience to God's will a work of merit

Obedience to Gods will has never been defined by the Bible as works of merit.
Dan always perverts works of obedience and twists the scriptures into calling simple obedient faith as meritorious works salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Belief is a work, John 6:28-29.

This is the work (singular) of God (play on words) in contrast to what shall we do that we may work the works (plural) of God (legalistic approach) So, belief is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) We are saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

For all that might choose to suffer and read through Dan's lies about me....

It's not a lie that you teach salvation by faith "conjoined" with works and try to pass that off as salvation by grace through faith.

I've asked Dan if it is possible to obey any of Jesus' new testament commandments and not do a good work.

Asked and answered. Who obeys Jesus' New Testament commandments? Believers or unbelievers? To believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ in 1 John 3:23 is not a work for salvation but an acceptance of the person and work of Jesus Christ. (John 1:12) This belief is distinct from good works which result from saving faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

He refuses to answer this simple question.

I answered your loaded question and salvation through faith is not salvation by good works. You are trying to turn belief in 1 John 3:23 into just another good work in a series of good works in a quest to receive salvation by good works. You tried to pull the same stunt with John 6:29. Not buying it Titus.

Instead he says works AFTER one is saved when obeying commandments are good works.

Since you teach that salvation is maintained by good works, do you believe the command to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ in 1 John 3:23 is a command for unbelievers to initially come to believe and be saved or to believers to continue to believe and remain saved? Are we created in Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10) or is it the other way around?

Then lies and says he answered my question.

I did answer your question. Salvation by faith is not salvation by good works. You verbally confirm salvation by faith, but in practice, you emphasize human actions and obedience to rules as a prerequisite to receiving and maintaining salvation, which essentially undermines the concept of salvation as a free gift received by grace through faith and implies that individuals must somehow work for and merit (at least in part) salvation through their actions/performance. Yet you deny no merit is involved.

My question was never after salvation.
My question has always been any, any, any, commandment obeyed is it possible that one can obey Gods commandments and that obedience not be a good work?
He refuses to answer.
We both know why.
Dan needs to find someone else to pick on.

1 John 3:23 summarizes two Christian principles. To believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Titus turns this command into salvation by works and makes no distinction between faith and good works. To label believing as just another good work makes it easier for Titus to pool multiple other good works together and pass salvation by good works off as salvation through faith. Very crafty!

All commandments when obeyed are good works.

Hebrews 11:1 defines faith for us. Faith "is" the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Titus' definition of faith "is" good works. It makes it easier for him to teach salvation by works that way, but it's all just smoke and mirrors.

Belief is a commandment that must be obeyed, 1John 3:23-24.
Therefore when one believes one has obeyed one of the commandments in the new testament.
Obeying a commandment is working a commandment.

Works-salvationists have not obeyed the command to believe. Titus does not understand the difference between believing and working. (Romans 4:4-6) It's one thing to obey a command in order to become saved and it's another thing to obey a command after we have been saved. For Titus everything is a command for salvation and a work for salvation. Such confusion!

James 2:24 works of obedience, aka obedient faith.

Works of obedience are produced out of faith but are not the very essence of faith. Just like Roman Catholics you basically redefine faith 'as" works and make no distinction between faith and works. Roman Catholics make the same error and argue that faith "includes" - being water baptized, partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc.. It's a package deal of mental assent belief "infused" with works righteousness disguised as salvation through faith. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Dan's religion of no works of any kind even non meritorious works like obeying the commandment to believe, supposedly are not works according to Dan.

Obeying the commandment to believe (1 John 3:23) is not a work for salvation and neither is obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16) Receiving a free gift is not working for salvation. From beginning (Ephesians 2:8) to end (1 Peter 1:9) we merit nothing through believing because through believing (Romans 3:24-26) we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). Jesus Christ receives all the merit.

This is why he cannot answer simple questions else he would expose himself as the liar that he is.
His false gospel is easy to expose as man made error. A contradiction against 1John 3:23-24; John 6:28-29.

I answered your loaded question and the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes that I teach still stands. (Romans 1:16) Your works based false gospel is easy to expose. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 11:6; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Dan's indoctrinated into the false idea that works are filthy, dirty and always meritorious even though the Bible never teaches belief in Christ is a work of merit.

Be sure to go back and thoroughly read through post #415. It cuts right to the heart of your error in regard to works salvation. Now apart from the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ to wash away our sins this is how God see's us - But we are all like an unclean thing and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.. (Isaiah 64:6)

James 2:24, no merit involved only obedience in doing what God says to do.

Being accounted as righteous by works = merit no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. Paul refutes you. (Romans 4:2-6) So, no merit involved in obtaining and/or maintaining salvation by good works because you are simply doing what God says to do? That makes about as much sense as winning a gold medal in the Olympics = no merit because I was just doing what my coach told me to do. See your logic? Seeking salvation by works is not obeying God. (Romans 4:2-6)

Obedience to Gods will has never been defined by the Bible as works of merit.
Dan always perverts works of obedience and twists the scriptures into calling simple obedient faith as meritorious works salvation.

Salvation by faith is not meritorious works salvation until you "add" works to saved through faith, which you have. You even basically redefine faith "as" works. What a mess! Your gospel is an oxymoron.

Now there is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND

doing God's will after we have been saved: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

 

[mailmandan]

In James chapter two, James is teaching on good works.
In Paul's letter to the Romans, specifically Romans chapter 4. Paul is teaching on the works done in the law of Moses.

Since you like asking loaded questions, I have a question for you. Please explain to me which good works (James 2:15-16) could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) Is the law of Moses merely limited to ceremonially laws?

Paul teaches Abraham was justified by faith not law keeping. Exactly the same way Christians are justified before God today, by faith. But not faith alone but obedient faith i.e. faith that obeys God.

Just say it. By faith AND WORKS. That is exactly where your eisegesis takes you. Obeying God after we have been saved through faith is the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but is not the essence of faith.

This is the faith Paul teaches all throughout Romans. An obedient faith not faith alone (not working Gods commandments).

There it is again. Salvation by faith AND WORKS. Paul said justified by faith "apart from additions or modifications" hence, faith alone. (Romans 5:1) Not faith + working God's commandments afterwards. (Romans 4:5-6)

James is teaching of the works in the new testament gospel of Jesus Christ.
These works are never merit or boastful works.
These works are simply obeying Jesus.
Therefore they cannot earn salvation.
All they do is meet Gods conditions to be saved by His grace and mercy.
Gods grace has always been conditional.
For example you must believe to recieve Gods grace. Unbelievers do not meet Gods conditions to be saved, justified, made righteous by Gods free gift of grace.

Your gospel of salvation by faith + your personal definition of non-meritorious works is an oxymoron. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Paul covers works in general and not merely isolated works of the law.

 

[Titus]

Belief is a work, John 6:28-29

This is the work (singular) of God (play on words) in contrast to what shall we do that we may work the works (plural) of God (legalistic approach) So, belief is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works

Once again we see Dan refusing to discriminate with works. Dan's religion puts all works into one category i.e. boastful meritorious works.

He must pervert works in the Bible to mold the work of belief for example into something Jesus never taught.
He re-molds the meaning of Jesus' teaching into his doctrines form.

John 6:28-29,
- then they said unto Him, what shall we do that we might work the works of God,
Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God
that YOU believe on Him whom He hath sent

Jesus taught we(man) works Gods works by belief in Him.
Dan rejects Jesus' words because in his religion works of any kind even non- meritorious works of filthy, evil.

Dan then perverts the words of Christ calling them "a play on words ".
Then Dan teaches that Jesus' use of calling belief what it literally is i.e. a work of God would be a "legalistic approach " if we take Jesus' teaching literally.

This is speaking against God.
Jesus said those who worked the work of belief would do more works.
This is literal not a "play on words"
John 14:12,
- verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on Me, the works that I(God) do,...
Shall he(man) DO ALSO and greater works than these shall he(man) DO because I(Jesus) go to My Father

This is not a "play on words" as Dan twists the words of God, whenever works are being taught.
Remember all commandments when obeyed are good works. This is Biblical fact.
Dan refuses to answer simple questions because he knows it exposes his lies about all works being meritorious(his claim) rather than what the Bible teaches, simple works of obedience to Gods will.
1John 3:23-24. Belief is a commandment, therefore literally is a good work according to Scripture.


When the Jews ask Jesus in John 6:28-29,
- what must we do that we might work the works of God...
The Greek shows they are asking a literal question.
Jesus responds with a literal response not figuratively.

When Jesus responds "this is the work of God" It is Gods literal work.

God died on the cross and rose from the dead. That is His literal work.
Why? To work belief in us.
Without the work of God we would not have faith/belief in Jesus.
Dan desperately tries to make all this metaphorical.
Then Gods work of belief is not His literal work!!!!

His interpretation of these verses is ridiculous.

Belief in Jesus only occurs because of Gods literal work that He did.
Commandments are Gods.
He authorized by His authority to obey His commandments in His gospel.
His first commandment to be saved is to believe in Him.
Is that mans idea? If it is then belief is a work of man not a work of God.

Since belief is Gods work because He authorized it.
Therefore when we believe in Jesus we are literally working the works of God.
Just as Jesus taught.
Dan rejects this and claims it's not a work.
His false gospel is denying Jesus' word.

Work of God is a work God does.
God requires and commands us believe in His work.
When we believe we are literally working the works of God.

Jesus uses the Greek word ergon. In English its translated as work.
Believe is ergon in John 6:28-29. Jesus says to believe is a work.

The Greek word believe is a verb.
It is a literal action word.
It literally means, to take action.

Jesus' use of calling believe a work is literally saying,
A real continuous action performed by the person doing the work of believing.

So Jesus' grammar keeps belief in the category of an action, deed(work).

The crowd in v.28 asked what actions they should do. Jesus responds by taking their word and making belief the one required.
Belief is their deed. Deeds are works.

Another reason why believing in Jesus is called a work of God by Jesus is because God grant's belief to us.
Philippians 1:29,
- it has been  granted to you to believe in Christ

This makes belief Gods literal action operating in a human being.
His power is the cause. Our will is the instrument.

This is the work (singular) of God (play on words) in contrast to what shall we do that we may work the works (plural) of God (legalistic approach) So, belief is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works.

So there is a difference between works one does to earn salvation versus obedience to God's will. This is a distinction many refuse to make and seem to want to make obedience to God's will a work of merit.

 

[mailmandan]

Once again we see Dan refusing to discriminate with works. Dan's religion puts all works into one category i.e. boastful meritorious works.

He must pervert works in the Bible to mold the work of belief for example into something Jesus never taught.
He re-molds the meaning of Jesus' teaching into his doctrines form.

John 6:28-29,
- then they said unto Him, what shall we do that we might work the works of God,
Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God
that YOU believe on Him whom He hath sent

Jesus taught we(man) works Gods works by belief in Him.
Dan rejects Jesus' words because in his religion works of any kind even non- meritorious works of filthy, evil.

Dan then perverts the words of Christ calling them "a play on words ".
Then Dan teaches that Jesus' use of calling belief what it literally is i.e. a work of God would be a "legalistic approach " if we take Jesus' teaching literally.

This is speaking against God.
Jesus said those who worked the work of belief would do more works.
This is literal not a "play on words"
John 14:12,
- verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on Me, the works that I(God) do,...
Shall he(man) DO ALSO and greater works than these shall he(man) DO because I(Jesus) go to My Father

This is not a "play on words" as Dan twists the words of God, whenever works are being taught.
Remember all commandments when obeyed are good works. This is Biblical fact.
Dan refuses to answer simple questions because he knows it exposes his lies about all works being meritorious(his claim) rather than what the Bible teaches, simple works of obedience to Gods will.
1John 3:23-24. Belief is a commandment, therefore literally is a good work according to Scripture.

When the Jews ask Jesus in John 6:28-29,
- what must we do that we might work the works of God...
The Greek shows they are asking a literal question.
Jesus responds with a literal response not figuratively.

When Jesus responds "this is the work of God" It is Gods literal work.

God died on the cross and rose from the dead. That is His literal work.
Why? To work belief in us.
Without the work of God we would not have faith/belief in Jesus.
Dan desperately tries to make all this metaphorical.
Then Gods work of belief is not His literal work!!!!

His interpretation of these verses is ridiculous.

Belief in Jesus only occurs because of Gods literal work that He did.
Commandments are Gods.
He authorized by His authority to obey His commandments in His gospel.
His first commandment to be saved is to believe in Him.
Is that mans idea? If it is then belief is a work of man not a work of God.

Since belief is Gods work because He authorized it.
Therefore when we believe in Jesus we are literally working the works of God.
Just as Jesus taught.
Dan rejects this and claims it's not a work.
His false gospel is denying Jesus' word.

Work of God is a work God does.
God requires and commands us believe in His work.
When we believe we are literally working the works of God.

Jesus uses the Greek word ergon. In English its translated as work.
Believe is ergon in John 6:28-29. Jesus says to believe is a work.

The Greek word believe is a verb.
It is a literal action word.
It literally means, to take action.

Jesus' use of calling believe a work is literally saying,
A real continuous action performed by the person doing the work of believing.

So Jesus' grammar keeps belief in the category of an action, deed(work).

The crowd in v.28 asked what actions they should do. Jesus responds by taking their word and making belief the one required.
Belief is their deed. Deeds are works.

Another reason why believing in Jesus is called a work of God by Jesus is because God grant's belief to us.
Philippians 1:29,
- it has been  granted to you to believe in Christ

This makes belief Gods literal action operating in a human being.
His power is the cause. Our will is the instrument.

John 6:28 - Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” - legaliistic approach.

Jesus correction and play on words.

John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Titus needs to turn believing into just "another" work in a series of works in order to accommodate his false gospel that culminates in salvation by works.

Doing works after one believes (John 14:12) is not the belief itself but Titus is unable to make the distinction.

My gospel is believing in Jesus for salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and not believing in works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Unlike you, I trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in self.