James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

Faith in Justification considered from the scriptures. Continue from #254, 259

First, not any shall be saved by Christ, but those who were predestinated in him, according to God’s eternal purpose, Ephesians 1:4-5, 3:11, and that there was not any foreseen faith or works in any kind why he chose these rather than others; the will of God was the cause one was chosen and not another; all was according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise and glory of his grace. Ephesians 1:5-6. “What then? Are we better than they? No, in nowise,” etc., Romans 3:9, it was from His great love “wherewith He loved us.” Ephesians 2:4. This love of God was the cause of God’s sending Christ, John 3:16, and the chief cause of man’s election and salvation. Ist John 4:10; Ephesians 1:4; John 17:23. And that it is impossible for this great love to decrease or increase, because it is infinite, Isaiah 45:17; Psalms103:17, God being perfect and infinite, Isaiah 40:28, knowing and understanding all things that ever were, are, or shall be at once; his purpose being infinite and everlasting, in and of himself. So one pure act of Grace, therefore when we were chosen in Christ, we were justified and complete in Christ, God looking upon the Elect to be in Christ before the world was, Ephesians 1:4, and so the LORD ever looks upon the Elect; in as much that they ever appear to Him perfect and righteous as Christ; for they are one, and are in Him. “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.” (Ist Corinthians 1:30} You are in Christ Jesus, and ever shall be in him, being justified freely by his grace in his sight. Romans 3:24. God properly was never wroth with Christ, nor the elect, (as subsisting in Christ,) and therefore Christ could not suffer God’s wrath, Hebrews 2:9; so that in respect of their justification, God sees no sin in any of the Elect, even before their calling and after. And as it is God’s will, so it should be ours, to set His glory above our salvation, “that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 2:7)

Secondly, in time the Elect did break a holy and just Law, and so lay under the curse and wrath thereof, which was death. Romans 3:23. Christ in our nature, and for our persons suffered death, Hebrews 2:9, (the penalty,) to free all the Elect, so that they are now actually justified by the Justice of God, “that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” Romans 3:26. If God should have justified us, without this propitiation, after he had made this Law, and we breaking it, he could not have been just, but having received this propitiation at the hands of a Surety, Hebrews 7:22, he could not be just, if he did not justify all the Elect. “Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together; who hath declared this from ancient time? Who hath told it from that time? Have not I the LORD? And there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.” (Isaiah 45:21) “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; behold, thy King cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation.” (Zechariah 9:9)

Thirdly, the soul by faith doth apprehend and apply Christ, and what he hath done, to be for him, by which it knows itself to be justified in the sight of God, and in the Word, and in his own conscience. Whence flows joy and peace in believing, Rom.5:1, because all that believe are justified, Acts 13:39, “and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, " Acts 13:48, so that by believing, I know that I am ordained to eternal life, because God’s word saith so, and that we are justified in his sight without the deeds of the Law, Romans 3:20,28, via, by faith we apprehend ourselves to be freely and fully justified by Christ, without any works of our own, Galatians 2:16, without any addition of inherent goodness in us, etc. but by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ alone.

Fourthly, by our works in our outward subjection to Christ, to his word, we declare to men (as far as they can judge) that we by grace, are in possession of “the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness.” (Titus 1:1) Thou, O Lord, knows the hearts of all men; but faith without works is dead to men, and buried also, James 2:18,20, for if there be no works, they can see nothing of it; “show me thy faith by thy works;" we see then how by works a man is justified in the sight of men. (James 2:24). In the first place we are justified in respect of the knowledge and purpose of God in his sight. Secondly, we are actually and virtually justified in Justice by the blood of Christ, which paid the debt; now the full price, the full debt being paid, is it justice in law by God or man, to require it again? Surely no! Thirdly, by faith we are justified in our Consciences, by the Holy Spirit’s manifestation and application of Christ’s righteousness unto us. And lastly, we are justified before men, or unto men, by such good works which bear testimony to our union to Christ.
 
First, not any shall be saved by Christ, but those who were predestinated  in him, according to God’s eternal purpose
This is calvinist predestination error.
Paul teaches how we get  IN Christ.

It is not by doing nothing like Calvinist teach.
Red Baker is teaching here that God hates many and has predestined, chosen, created , them for reprobation to burn in hell for His pleasure.

This has nothing to do with Biblical predestination.
Calvanist are always the ones that think they have been elected by God.
But since you can do absolutely nothing to get elected it's just wishful thinking that you have been hand picked by God to be His elect.

Baker teaches God chooses men arbitrarily way before they were born.
The scriptures nowhere teach this.
The scriptures teach way before we were born God predestined to save us  IN Christ.

That's Biblical predestination.
Calvinism: individuals predestined to be saved without their choice in the matter.
Bible predestination: God predestined all who are  IN Christ to be saved.


That one word is critical to understanding predestination.
God never cherry picked a select group to,be saved a long long time ago.

God chose to save in a location not by individual.

That location is what is predestined.

Ephesians 1:3,
- blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us IN CHRIST with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places

Now pay close attention to location. Location is what is predestined not individuals.

Ephesians 1:4-5,
- even as He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him
In love he predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of His will

Who did God choose?
He chose those in Christ for adoption.
To make those in Christ His sons.
Those in Christ were to be saved according to His will.

Paul uses the phrase 10 times in chapter 1.

Now Red Baker needs to teach how we get IN Christ.
He wont be able to give verses that teach we get into Christ by doing nothing.
By not obeying any commandments in Jesus' gospel.

He won't be able to teach the calvinist doctrine of Unconditional election with scripture for how one is put IN Christ.
This is not arbitrary.
It is by each individual's own free will choice!!!

These are the main verses calvinist will try to use to prove their interpretation of predestination,

Romans 8:29-30 ; 9:10-24 ; John 6:37-44 ; Acts 13:48

Note: none of these verses say IN Christ.
Red Baker needs to give verses that teach how we get into Christ.

Election is corporate not individual. God chose a people in Chirst.
Predestined is conditional. Based on foreseen faith.
God desires all to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 ; 2 Peter 3:9.
Which contradicts individual predestination to be saved.

If Baker doesn't respond to my challenge I will give the answer.
 
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@Titus
If Baker doesn't respond to my challenge I will give the answer.
Is this the best you have to offer for a challenge? I see why Paul said:

1st Timothy 3:6​

“Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.”

Or, fall into the hands of an old, experience warrior! Like Asahel did to Abner~2nd Kings 2:18-23.
Election is corporate not individual
Really? Are sure about this?

Romans 16:13​

“Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.”

Philippians 4:3​

“And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.”

individual name...not as one whole.

2 John 1:1​

“The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;”

Local churches ae made up of individuals, which often Paul names them personally ~ all spiritual blessings for them as a body, is true of them as an individual, and some give more evidence of these spiritual blessing's than others, so Paul mentioned Rufus by name as such. This shows that election is not of nations, nor churches, but of particular persons; and so expresses the distinguishing, free, and sovereign grace of God in it, that one and not another should be chosen; though these are on an equal foot, and so not owing to foreseen faith, holiness, and good works. The apostle knew Rufus to be a chosen vessel, not by immediate revelation, or divine inspiration, but by his faith in Christ, and love to him, and by the power of the Gospel on him; and so may anyone know himself, or another man hereby to be chosen, and ought in a judgment of charity so to think of him, as long as his life is agreeably to his profession.

1st Thessalonians 1:4​

“Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.”
Note: none of these verses say IN Christ.
Red Baker needs to give verses that teach how we get into Christ.
Well, I have debated many coc folks over the years, and their favorite line is how do we get into Christ? Of course, they want to try to prove that water baptism puts one into Christ, but I remind them that we were "chosen" IN CHRIST, before we are ever baptized into Christ's religion/faith, etc. You walked all over the verse in your post, yet never even considered how the elect got to be in Christ, because of your strong appetite to include you works/conditions, etc., into salvation from sin and condemnation.

Ephesians 1:3,4​

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

The elect have for ever been viewed to be IN CHRIST, and you cannot have corporate election without an individual election, that's impossible, not even rational. The Senate and House of Representatives are two elected bodies of our government, yet each one was elected as an individual from their respective district.

Acts 13:48​

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

"as many as were"~ speaking of an individual not as a body! Those that were not ordained, did not believe, again, speaking of individuals.
Red Baker is teaching here that God hates many and has predestined, chosen, created , them for reprobation to burn in hell for His pleasure.
Are you kin to Studyman? You sound just like him here, by attributing words to me that I have never said. Besides, I do not even teach a literal burning hell fire where the wicked go at death, for there is no such place in the scriptures. I do believe in the lake of fire that all the wicked shall perish in which is the second death for them, but other than that, you have never heard me say what you are saying that I said. So stop lying, if you can, but maybe you cannot, but that's your problem to deal with. The righteous have eternal life now and at death, they go to be with Christ...the wicked do not have eternal life and at death they go into total silence, waiting to be resurrected and "THEN" judged and cast into the lake of fire......which will be THIS EARTH when God shall burned it up with fire and all the wicked with it after the Great White Throne Judgment~all whose names were not in the book of life, individual names, Mr. Titus.
 
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@mailmandan
Yes, he is.
Dan, I came to believe he was. That's a Spirit less religion, if there ever was one. They are great broad jumpers all the way from 1812 (Alexander Campbell) to Acts two.. Thomas Campbell the father was a Calvinist from Scotland, a close friend of one of my favorite writers Robert Haldane, but far from Samuel Richardson, John Brine, and John Gill, but Richardson by far the best, at least in my view. Much of what I wrote above I owe to John Brine and Samuel Richardson.

https://libcfl.com/articles/brine.htm

https://www.mercyuponall.org/pdfs-c...ichardson-justification-by-christ-alone-1647/
 
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Red Baker is teaching here that God hates many and has predestined, chosen, created , them for reprobation to burn in hell for His pleasure
Are you kin to Studyman? You sound just like him here, by attributing words to me that I have never said. Besides, I do not even teach a literal burning hell fire where the wicked go at death, for there is no such place in the scriptures
I teaching what calvinism teaches.
If you created your own belief system on hell that makes sense, since in your religion God burns babies in hell.
God burns much more in hell than He elects.
This is all done by Gods choosing. No one even has the right to beg God not to send them there.
It's a completely loveless religion.
God hates most regardless of whether they try to live good godly lives.
And loves a few regardless of how wicked they are.
You can be a person that helps suffering people all your life and God will send you to hell.
Or you can be the most vile evil pedophile like Jeffrey Epstein and be elected and go to paradise.
That's calvinism.
A religion of a sadistic god that causes men like Epstein to rape and murder babies, children and put them in paradise.
While burning others that helped the suffering trying to live good moral lives in hell.
In this religion God literally causes evil. He causes determine everyone to do all of their wicked deeds.
So this is convenient for red Baker to create a hell that isn't the hell we read about in the Bible or the hell that his religion teaches.

Quote from John Calvin:
" infants may be justly deemed reprobate by their own nature since they bear Adam's guilt(born wicked and guilty even though they've never personally sinned)
and Gods justice is not unjust in condemning them."
Calvin Institutes 2.1.8

Baker's god burns babies in hell and this is just according to Calvin.
Nothing just in burning innocent babies in hell.
Calvinist's never follow their religion because it is too horrible to accept.
Most calvinist's today deny God sends babies to hell instead claim God has grace on them.
It's a made up religion that evoles over time.
That's why red Baker has created his own hell. Not the hell His religion really believes in.

Listen to true calvinism teach God burns babies in hell for his pleasure or glory.
Quote:
"The reprobate are appointed to wrath by the will of God and theirruin displays His glory. But because His good pleasure is the highest rule of righteousness and because He will, ought to be our reason so it is right for us to rest in it."


I dont blame you Red Baker for creating your own hell to escape your truly despicable religion's doctrine.
Typical that calvinist reject their own teachings yet stay calvinist.

Is Titus a Church of Christ member
Yes, he is.
Yes I'm a member of the church that the apostle Paul is in, Romans 16:16.
Dan, I came to believe he was. That's a Spirit less religion, if there ever was one
We teach God loves everyone, 1 Timothy 2:3-4.
We teach babies are born innocent not guilty and if die in infancy all go to heaven, 2 Samuel 12:22-23 ; Matthew 18:2-3-10; Mark 10:14 ; Deuteronomy 1:39.

Even Calvin admits his religion is horrible.
A Spiritless religion, Red Baker?
Look in the mirror!!!! O, the irony.
Calvinism that's a merciless religion if there ever was one. That's not hyperbole that's stating cold hard truths.
Calvin agrees.

Really? Are sure about this?

Romans 16:13​

“Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.”

Philippians 4:3​

“And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.”
Failure. Does not even mention how one is put into Christ.

2 John 1:1​

“The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;”
Baker's god literally hates most children since He predestined most children go burn in hell.

1st Thessalonians 1:4​

“Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.”

Ephesians 1:3,4​

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

The elect have for ever been viewed to be IN CHRIST, and you cannot have corporate election without an individual election, that's impossible, not even rational. The Senate and House of Representatives are two elected bodies of our government, yet each one was elected as an individual from their respective district.

Acts 13:48​

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

"as many as were"~ speaking of an individual not as a body! Those that were not ordained, did not believe, again, speaking of individuals.

As predicted Red Baker cannot give one verse teaching how one gets added to the Body of Christ where all the saved are IN.

God predestined by location who would be saved not predestined individuals.

It is true God foreknew who would be in Christ. But that has nothing to do with Him cherry picking which ones He would save.
It simply means God foreknew which ones would by their free will, choice, choose to be saved by believing and obeying Jesus' gospel.

How does one get saved in Christ?
By calvinism they do nothing. They were handpicked for nothing they could do would put them in Christ.
The Bible does not teach this.

All the saved are in Christs body, which is His church.
Ephesians 5:23,
- for the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church and He is the Savior of the body/church

Pretty important to be in the true church you read about in the Bible since that is where God puts all the saved.

Ephesians 1:3,4​

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"
The elect have for ever been viewed to be IN CHRIST

The elect in Ephesians did not get In Christ the way Bakers religion teaches.
God foreknew who would be in Christ long ago because He knew who would by their freewill choose to obey the gospel.

Galatians 3:26-27,
- for ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus
for( Greek word gar, means heres the reason why)
for as many of you as have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ

Romans 6:3,
- know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christwere baptized into His death

How then did the Ephesians in Ephesians 1:3 get IN Christ?
Acts 19:1-7
- Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus(the Ephesians) and finding certain disciples he said unto them,
- have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed they said unto him we have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Spirit
- and Paul said until them unto what then were ye baptized and they said unto John's baptism
- and Paul said unto them, John veily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying untomthe people that they should believe on Him which should come after John, that is on Christ Jesus
- when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus

The Ephesians were baptized Into Christ.
Notice they did not even have the Holy Spirit when they first believed.

Before they met Paul they were already believers in Jesus but not saved without the Holy Spirit.

Verse 4,
- then said Paul John(Apollos taught the same message as John)
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying unto the people that they should believe on Jesus which should come after John, that is on Christ Jesus

When they heard that they were baptized into Christ were all the spiritually blessings are.

Ephesians 1:3,
- blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places IN Christ

This is how the predestined where in Christ.
They were baptized into Him.

Ephesians 1:5,
- having predestined us(the baptized) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will

The faith that obeys is the faith that saves.
No Holy Spirit given to the Ephesians in their belief alone.
Not until they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ did they recieve the Spirit.
The Ephesians were outside of Christ until baptism. Then God put them in Christ where all the saved are.
 
That's a Spirit less religion, if there ever was one.
Red, seriously, anyone following the absurdities of Augustine and Calvin should never be making such a statement. There are few prominent denominations, including the Catholic ones, that are less led by the Spirit than Calvinism/Reformed Theology.
 
Yes I'm a member of the church that the apostle Paul is in, Romans 16:16.
Don't confuse the churches of Christ in the NT (also known as the church of God - Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32) with your church that calls itself the church of Christ and came out of the restoration movement.
 
@mailmandan

Dan, I came to believe he was. That's a Spirit less religion, if there ever was one. They are great broad jumpers all the way from 1812 (Alexander Campbell) to Acts two.. Thomas Campbell the father was a Calvinist from Scotland, a close friend of one of my favorite writers Robert Haldane, but far from Samuel Richardson, John Brine, and John Gill, but Richardson by far the best, at least in my view. Much of what I wrote above I owe to John Brine and Samuel Richardson.

https://libcfl.com/articles/brine.htm

https://www.mercyuponall.org/pdfs-c...ichardson-justification-by-christ-alone-1647/
I find it interesting that you said, "Spirit less religion." I was recently reading an article on how the church of Christ (Campbellism) denies the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation.

Major Errors of Campbellism on Salvation / Bob L. Ross | https://share.google/g0k4Pra6QbDulyhRm

The article went on to say, "Is this not why, as so many have observed, Campbellite preaching is so dead, so staccato, and relies so heavily upon human “logic” and “legalism?” The only explanation of this barren spirituality is the absence of the Holy Spirit. This likewise explains their lack of a proper understanding of the Word of God (I Cor. 2:14)."
 
I find it interesting that you said, "Spirit less religion." I was recently reading an article on how the church of Christ (Campbellism) denies the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation.

Major Errors of Campbellism on Salvation / Bob L. Ross | https://share.google/g0k4Pra6QbDulyhRm

The article went on to say, "Is this not why, as so many have observed, Campbellite preaching is so dead, so staccato, and relies so heavily upon human “logic” and “legalism?” The only explanation of this barren spirituality is the absence of the Holy Spirit. This likewise explains their lack of a proper understanding of the Word of God (I Cor. 2:14)."
Another lie.
The Spirit plays a HUGE part in salvation.
Dan wont quote members of the church of Christ.
Instead he goes to men outside the church to let them teach.
That's hearsay.

I'll go ahead and teach what we really believe on the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation later.
Worship today.
Maybe later today if times permit.
Dan I'm happy and unashamed to let everyone know that I'm in the church that the apostles are in.
You wont even admit that you are a Baptist.

Shameful that you are spreading lies about what we teach,
 
@Titus
I teaching what calvinism teaches.
Your post is one rambling confused mess, making it very difficult to answer your out of control rambling speech, if it can be called that. Paul calls some folks speech like your post is displaying, as being guilty of vain jangling!

1st Timothy 1:6,7​

“From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

let me see what I can do with this mess.

First, this is not about Calvinism or any other "ism" ~ such as Armenianism, which both school of thoughts have their own errors to address, more so with those in the Armenian camp. There are godly folks (more so in the past, then now) in both schools of thoughts. We are not call to defend schools of thoughts/teachings, or any denomination that one may be affiliated with, but the word of God, which I have always made it my main focus, even if I lean toward the Particular Baptist that lived back during the reformation, and up until John Gill and others. I'm not a Calvinist in the true sense of Calvinism ~besides unconditional election was preached long before Calvin as far as church history goes. Augustine whom Calvin and Martin Luther both learned from was over a thousand years before both, and he taught unconditional election, so learn you history at least a little ~ I do not recommend too much, for they too had their problems as all men godly men do, if the truth was known.
If you created your own belief system on hell that makes sense,
Another subject for another day, but would love to discuss this. I was taught what many beleive when i first came to Christ back in the early 70's, and soon found out that it is nothing more than a spin off of purgatory, that the Catholic Church made famous in order to get $$$$$$$$ from poor deluded souls. Test me, and let see who has the truth.
since in your religion God burns babies in hell.
Again I do not contend for any rellgion other than the scriptures since I'm not part of the religions in Mystery Babylon since we worship in our homes. I'm here to defend the Bible and nothing else.

That being said, I do understand that every man has a religion in one sense, even if that person uses only the scriptures, they still have certain doctrines they have come to see, believe in and defend, so, in this sense we all have a rellgion that we believe in. I do not want a holier than thou attitude about me by saying: "I'm here to defend the Bible and nothing else."
in your religion God burns babies in hell.
You talking to the wrong person, as I have already explain myself on this subject. That being said, I will add that infants are pure and innocent as you are saying. If you believe they are, then let me ask you a question: Why did God command Israel to destroy infants when they destroy nation? Do you believe there were no infants destroyed in the flood? Of course there were. Your religion (coc) has major problems on a lot of doctrines that we shall expose as we go forward.
And loves a few regardless of how wicked they are.
You can be a person that helps suffering people all your life and God will send you to hell.
Or you can be the most vile evil pedophile like Jeffrey Epstein and be elected and go to paradise
Every man that has ever lived from Cain forward, well actually from the fall of Adam forward, has a heart (the old man) capable of doing the vilest of sin, including you and me! To think otherwise to to be puffed up of your own self worth, which no man has an ounce of it by nature. God restrains some, some he does not as much as others is why you see different degrees of wickedness. Besides I'm pretty sure you are thankful to God that NO ONE knows all about you, even your own wife, if the truth was known. We all have done things that is so ungodly, that we are thankful that God has allow much to be hidden from others ~ I KNOW that I am. Even now, if God would remove his hand, you and I would do the unthinkable!
Yes I'm a member of the church that the apostle Paul is in, Romans 16:16.
Don't confuse the churches of Christ in the NT (also known as the church of God - Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32) with your church that calls itself the church of Christ and came out of the restoration movement.
There is your answer from brother Dan.
We teach God loves everyone, 1 Timothy 2:3-4.
We teach babies are born innocent not guilty and if die in infancy all go to heaven, 2 Samuel 12:22-23 ; Matthew 18:2-3-10; Mark 10:14 ; Deuteronomy 1:39.
I am coming back.. to finish since I have a short meeting to attend.

 
Another lie.
The Spirit plays a HUGE part in salvation.
Dan wont quote members of the church of Christ.
Instead he goes to men outside the church to let them teach.
That's hearsay.

I'll go ahead and teach what we really believe on the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation later.
Worship today.
Maybe later today if times permit.
Dan I'm happy and unashamed to let everyone know that I'm in the church that the apostles are in.
You wont even admit that you are a Baptist.

Shameful that you are spreading lies about what we teach,
Its not a lie. I remember the same teaching mentioned in that article in the church of Christ that I temprarily attended several years ago. Even Alexander Campbell, a key figure in your movement, taught that the Spirit operates on people only through the Word. There is more to coming to saving faith in Jesus Christ than merely paper, ink and human intelligence.

The Spirit does play a huge part in salvation in regard to convicting, drawing, and enabling people to receive Christ through faith, regenerating them and sealing them in Christ. (John 3:5; 4:10,14; 6:44,65; 7:37-39; Acts 16:8,14; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; Ephesians 1:13-14 etc..) The teachings of your church do not line up with the teachings of the apostles.

You place too much emphasis on names. Whether I attend a Baptist church or a non-denominational church, I'm a Christian first and foremost. ✝️
 
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I find it interesting that you said, "Spirit less religion." I was recently reading an article on how the church of Christ (Campbellism) denies the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation.

Major Errors of Campbellism on Salvation / Bob L. Ross | https://share.google/g0k4Pra6QbDulyhRm

The article went on to say, "Is this not why, as so many have observed, Campbellite preaching is so dead, so staccato, and relies so heavily upon human “logic” and “legalism?” The only explanation of this barren spirituality is the absence of the Holy Spirit. This likewise explains their lack of a proper understanding of the Word of God (I Cor. 2:14)."
I think there is probably more errors in what Bob Ross has to say than in what Campbell might have said. It seems that what he is writing about is what THE SPIRITUAL SWORD cult teach rather than what Campbell actually taught. But then, many of us have that same problem in addressing what the "other guys" teach.
 
Its not a lie. I remember the same teaching mentioned in that article in the church of Christ that I temprarily attended several years ago. Even Alexander Campbell, a key figure in your movement, taught that the Spirit operates on people only through the Word. There is more to coming to saving faith in Jesus Christ than merely paper, ink and human intelligence.

The Spirit does play a huge part in salvation in regard to convicting, drawing, and enabling people to receive Christ through faith, regenerating them and sealing them in Christ. (John 3:5; 4:10,14; 6:44,65; 7:37-39; Acts 16:8,14; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; Ephesians 1:13-14 etc..) The teachings of your church do not line up with the teachings of the apostles.

You place too much emphasis on names. Whether I attend a Baptist church or a non-denominational church, I'm a Christian first and foremost. ✝️
Maybe you should spend some time studying Campbell rather than people who disliked him.
 
I think there is probably more errors in what Bob Ross has to say than in what Campbell might have said. It seems that what he is writing about is what THE SPIRITUAL SWORD cult teach rather than what Campbell actually taught. But then, many of us have that same problem in addressing what the "other guys" teach.
I had previously attended the church of Christ and have read teachings from Campbell. Bob Ross is more on target about the truth than the Spiritual Sword magazine.

Bob Ross wrote two books on this topic: Campbellism it's history and heresies and the Restoration Movement. Both books were enlightening about the church of Christ that came out of the restoration movement.
 
@Titus
We teach God loves everyone, 1 Timothy 2:3-4.

1st Timothy 2:4​

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

I can do no better than what John Gill wrote three hundred years ago, a hundred years or so, before the present day coc was ever form into what they are now.

"The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1 Timothy 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones."
We teach babies are born innocent not guilty and if die in infancy all go to heaven, 2 Samuel 12:22-23 ; Matthew 18:2-3-10; Mark 10:14 ; Deuteronomy 1:39.
There is no such doctrine as the "age of accountability" You basically teach what every other sect in Mystery Babylon (the religious sector of it) teaches,, but they are wrong just as you are. The blind following the blind.

Children are not any more special or deserving of God’s grace than adults, just take a moment to consider the Flood, Egypt’s firstborn (Exodus 11:5), chastening Israel (Deuteronomy 32;25 ; 2nd King 18;12), the Canaanites ( Numbers 31;17; Deut. 2:34; 3:6 20:16 Joshua 11;14), the Amalekites (1st Samuel 15;3) ), 42 children (2nd Kings 2:23,24), Psalm 137:9; etc.

Titus you and most others teach eternal life is conditional based on deciding for Jesus, the question arises, “What about babies?” The age of accountability was invented to get all babies into heaven, since women will reject preachers who do not preach all dead babies into heaven.

The “age of accountability” is a manmade age i.e. 13 or 20 that determines whether a person goes to heaven based on their innocence (babies and children under that age) or based on conditional salvation by deciding for Jesus as Saviour (children above that age and adults).

Those not deciding for Jesus as Saviour after the age of accountability go to the lake of fire, even though they would have gone to heaven, if they had died before reaching that age...according to your teachings and others.

So much more could be said, but enough for now.
As predicted Red Baker cannot give one verse teaching how one gets added to the Body of Christ where all the saved are IN.

God predestined by location who would be saved not predestined individuals.

It is true God foreknew who would be in Christ. But that has nothing to do with Him cherry picking which ones He would save.
It simply means God foreknew which ones would by their free will, choice, choose to be saved by believing and obeying Jesus' gospel.

How does one get saved in Christ?
By calvinism they do nothing. They were handpicked for nothing they could do would put them in Christ.
The Bible does not teach this.

All the saved are in Christs body, which is His church.
Ephesians 5:23,
- for the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church and He is the Savior of the body/church

Pretty important to be in the true church you read about in the Bible since that is where God puts all the saved.
Well, I did, you said not one word against what I said with scriptures proving what I said was not correct. I said:

Romans 16:13​

“Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.”

Philippians 4:3​

“And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.”

individual name...not as one whole.

2 John 1:1​

“The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;”

Local churches ae made up of individuals, which often Paul names them personally ~ all spiritual blessings for them as a body, is true of them as an individual, and some give more evidence of these spiritual blessing's than others, so Paul mentioned Rufus by name as such. This shows that election is not of nations, nor churches, but of particular persons; and so expresses the distinguishing, free, and sovereign grace of God in it, that one and not another should be chosen; though these are on an equal foot, and so not owing to foreseen faith, holiness, and good works. The apostle knew Rufus to be a chosen vessel, not by immediate revelation, or divine inspiration, but by his faith in Christ, and love to him, and by the power of the Gospel on him; and so may anyone know himself, or another man hereby to be chosen, and ought in a judgment of charity so to think of him, as long as his life is agreeably to his profession.

1st Thessalonians 1:4​

“Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.”
Well, I have debated many coc folks over the years, and their favorite line is how do we get into Christ? Of course, they want to try to prove that water baptism puts one into Christ, but I remind them that we were "chosen" IN CHRIST, before we are ever baptized into Christ's religion/faith, etc. You walked all over the verse in your post, yet never even considered how the elect got to be in Christ, because of your strong appetite to include you works/conditions, etc., into salvation from sin and condemnation.

Ephesians 1:3,4​

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

The elect have for ever been viewed to be IN CHRIST, and you cannot have corporate election without an individual election, that's impossible, not even rational. The Senate and House of Representatives are two elected bodies of our government, yet each one was elected as an individual from their respective district.
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus
for( Greek word gar, means heres the reason why)
for as many of you as have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ

Romans 6:3,
- know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christwere baptized into His death

How then did the Ephesians in Ephesians 1:3 get IN Christ?
Acts 19:1-7
- Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus(the Ephesians) and finding certain disciples he said unto them,
- have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed they said unto him we have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Spirit
- and Paul said until them unto what then were ye baptized and they said unto John's baptism
- and Paul said unto them, John veily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying untomthe people that they should believe on Him which should come after John, that is on Christ Jesus
- when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus

The Ephesians were baptized Into Christ.
Notice they did not even have the Holy Spirit when they first believed.

Before they met Paul they were already believers in Jesus but not saved without the Holy Spirit.
later...
 
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The Spirit does play a huge part in salvation in regard to convicting, drawing, and enabling people to receive Christ through faith, regenerating them and sealing them in Christ. (John 3:5; 4:10,14; 6:44,65; 7:37-39; Acts 16:8,14; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; Ephesians 1:13-14 etc..) The teachings of your church do not line up with the teachings of the apostles.
Dan, I knew this to be so debating these folks over the years plus reading their material; they actually mock the Spirit's opening the eyes of his saints, concerning reading the scriptures, and definitely in regeneration.

The Spirit does not play a huge part, He is the ONLY active person working in the regeneration of God's elect. One is born of the Spirit, without any means whatsoever.

I would love for Titus to debate me one on one from John 3:1-8...can any one make this happen?
 
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