Prove it I must report you
Jacob and Esau
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
Whether I was on CARM or not is irrelevant. Stick to the rules and the topic.
civic
Well-known member
Your welcome. Glad you get. Stick to the topic at hand.yes I have heard the exact same thing before many times on the old forum,
thanks
civic
Well-known member
yes please engage the text for once it would be nice for a change. try exegeting a passage that you quote so that I can see if you actually know what it means.
like what does it mean to say Jesus is Lord or to confess Jesus is Lord ?
Nope you are stuck. It is the same all you stated means all without exception in the first half of the verse which is in the second half
Romans 5:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
all men have the opportunity to obtain righteousness if indeed
Romans 5:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
which is by faith
Now if you claim it is more than the opportunity to receive this you are the universalist
Your stuck sir. If all means all without exception in all cases then all are justified. Your advocating universalism.
Point out the word opportunity in the text if you would please.
Sorry you ignored this
Nope you are stuck. It is the same all you stated means all without exception in the first half of the verse which is in the second half
Romans 5:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
all men have the opportunity to obtain righteousness if indeed
Romans 5:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
which is by faith
Now if you claim it is more than the opportunity to receive this you are the universalist
Correct-
Rom 5:17 For γὰρ if, εἰ by the τῷ trespass παραπτώματι of the τοῦ one, ἑνὸς - ὁ death θάνατος reigned ἐβασίλευσεν through διὰ the τοῦ one, ἑνός, how much πολλῷ more μᾶλλον {will} those οἱ receiving λαμβάνοντες the τὴν abundance περισσείαν - τῆς of grace χάριτος and καὶ of the τῆς gift δωρεᾶς - τῆς of righteousness δικαιοσύνης reign βασιλεύσουσιν in ἐν life ζωῇ through διὰ the τοῦ one, ἑνὸς Jesus Ἰησοῦ Christ! Χριστοῦ.
Rom 5:18 So Ἄρα then, οὖν just as ὡς through δι’ one ἑνὸς trespass, παραπτώματος [it is] unto εἰς condemnation κατάκριμα, to εἰς all πάντας men, ἀνθρώπους so οὕτως also καὶ through δι’ one ἑνὸς act of righteousness δικαιώματος [it is] unto εἰς justification δικαίωσιν of life ζωῆς· to εἰς all πάντας men. ἀνθρώπους
1) "Therefore as by the offence of one," (ara oun hos di' henos paraptomatos) "So therefore as through the offence of the one," the offence of Adam; The conclusion of the relationship of Adam's sin, and its consequences on the human race, and the subsequent Divine provision for its pardon is now introduced.
2) "Judgment came upon all men to condemnation," (eis pantas anthropous eis katakrima) "Judgment came) to or toward all men (human beings) unto condemnation," unto both physical and Spiritual death, Ecc_9:5; 1Co_15:22; Heb_9:27; Joh_3:3; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:6; Eph_2:1-3; Heb_2:9; Joh_3:18.
3) "Even so by the righteousness of one," (houtos kai di' henos dikaiomatos) "Thus also on account of the righteous act," the death of Christ, inclusive of his burial, and resurrection for sin, Isa_53:4-12; 1Co_15:14; Eph_1:7.
4) "The free gift came upon all men," (eis pantas anthropous) "(the free gift came) to all men," came to availability, to be available to all men, Joh_3:6; Rom_3:8-13; Tit_2:11-14.
5) "Unto justification of life," (eis dikaiosin zoes), "Unto, (with provision for) justification of life," to acquit the one condemned to Spiritual death and impart to him Spiritual life, eternal life, Joh_5:24; Joh_10:27-29; 1Jn_5:1; 1Jn_5:13; Rom_3:24; Rom_3:28.
civic
Well-known member
yes indeed !
You ignore the fact one must receive the gift
Romans 5:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Isolating a single verse from its context and simply quoting the greek is not exegesis
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I will be glad to explain it to you. Care to engage with me?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Calvinism has always lived in trying to isolate "phrases" to their advantage. Anyone can form a lie with such tactics. I could give many examples of this but I'll give just one.....
"soul sleep".
If all you ever read was Ecc 9:5. You would believe in "Soul Sleep".
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Thank God we have
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Communication is complicated. It requires more than a "blurb" of anything.
Yet, that is exactly where they live.
civic
Well-known member
yes in isolating verses from their context, changing the meaning of words/phrases where they read their theology into them. Its nothing but eisegesis and poor hermenuetics.
No one starts their Christian life believing the doctrines of grace- they must be taught them, its a form of brainwashing.
This is true
Go right ahead-exegete this verse for me @praise_yeshua
BTW-
Parsing a Greek verse, which involves analyzing its grammatical structure, syntax, and vocabulary, is not inherently eisegesis. Eisegesis refers to the practice of interpreting a text based on one's own presuppositions, beliefs, or biases, rather than drawing out the meaning intended by the original author within its historical and cultural context.
Parsing a Greek verse can be part of the exegetical process, which aims to understand the meaning of a text by examining its linguistic and literary features within its broader context. Exegesis seeks to uncover the author's original intent and meaning, taking into account factors such as historical background, literary genre, and language usage.
Parsing can provide valuable insights into the grammatical nuances of a verse, helping to clarify its meaning and contribute to a more accurate interpretation. However, it is essential to approach parsing as a tool within the broader context of exegetical study, rather than as an end in itself. The goal is to understand the text as faithfully as possible in light of its original language and context, rather than imposing personal interpretations onto it.
Very crystal.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
1. I tried to engage you on Morphology, Grammar and Syntax and you didn't respond. Maybe you missed it?
Morphology doesn't establish much of anything. You know why? People pretend they know how to create relationships that can't possibly be known. So first, establish that Morphology actually establishes anything. You are assuming your premise instead of establishing it.
If you share your source for Morphology, I will do it for you.
2. Did the writers of the Scriptures use perfect Greek grammar and Syntax in their writings? The answer is no. They didn't. I can prove it. Do you admit that the writers were inconsistent in their use of Grammar and Syntax in the NT or will concede this point?
In the study of textual criticism, one of the reasons we know that manuscripts have a clear pedigree is because the scribe copying the text left grammatical mistakes intact. Even this is not always true of all extant manuscripts. They were corrected at times by subsequent scribes.
Very few grammatical references exist external to the Scriptures that can properly establish what the authors themselves were trying to say to 100 percent certainty. We know what they were attempting to relate due to the fact they often repeated the same teachings throughout the NT. By examining all sources, we can come to a refined conclusion.
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