Jacob and Esau

The Rogue Tomato said:
I've seen people claim that this section is not talking about the persons of Jacob and Esau, but the nations.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

("the children") is added to the text, but you can't avoid not yet being born nor having done any good or evil. He's talking about Jacob and Esau, not the nations. It can be further applied to the nations, but the context is clearly about the unborn Jacob and Esau. And again, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated” is clearly about the two individuals.

Why is this important? Because the point is "that the purpose of God according to election might stand", which says that God made the choice before they were even born.
Click to expand...
I guess this one rose to the top of the list when someone responded recently.

Let me make a few points:

  • When Paul writes Romans 9, there are no verse breakdowns like we have today. The way you would reference a passage would be to give a familiar quote from the broader context or story so that the hearer would remember the whole story and what was occurring.
  • The first of these references is Genesis 25:22-23. This does say that new nations/peoples are in her. So it pretty explicitly refers to two people groups and the greater (Esau's descendants, representing the Gentiles) would server the lesser (Israel, Jacob's descendants). Here is the text:
The children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is to be this way, why do I live?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said to her,​
“Two nations are in your womb,​
and two peoples born of you shall be divided;​
the one shall be stronger than the other,​
the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen. 25:22–23 NRSV)​
  • The second is from Malachi 1 and again, contextually, refers to people groups. In fact, those people groups are even named:
An oracle. The word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.​
I have loved you, says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” Is not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the LORD. Yet I have loved Jacob but I have hated Esau; I have made his hill country a desolation and his heritage a desert for jackals. If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says: They may build, but I will tear down, until they are called the wicked country, the people with whom the LORD is angry forever. Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the borders of Israel!” (Malachi 1:1-5 NRSV)​

It is pretty explicit that both texts are about Israel and its relation to the nations.

Romans 9 is part of Paul's defense of Israel. It should be read in that way because contextually Gentiles are claiming that Jews had been cut off from Abraham's blessing.
 
Swordman said:
I guess this one rose to the top of the list when someone responded recently.

Let me make a few points:

  • When Paul writes Romans 9, there are no verse breakdowns like we have today. The way you would reference a passage would be to give a familiar quote from the broader context or story so that the hearer would remember the whole story and what was occurring.
  • The first of these references is Genesis 25:22-23. This does say that new nations/peoples are in her. So it pretty explicitly refers to two people groups and the greater (Esau's descendants, representing the Gentiles) would server the lesser (Israel, Jacob's descendants). Here is the text:
The children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is to be this way, why do I live?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said to her,​
“Two nations are in your womb,​
and two peoples born of you shall be divided;​
the one shall be stronger than the other,​
the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen. 25:22–23 NRSV)​
  • The second is from Malachi 1 and again, contextually, refers to people groups. In fact, those people groups are even named:
An oracle. The word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.​
I have loved you, says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” Is not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the LORD. Yet I have loved Jacob but I have hated Esau; I have made his hill country a desolation and his heritage a desert for jackals. If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says: They may build, but I will tear down, until they are called the wicked country, the people with whom the LORD is angry forever. Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the borders of Israel!” (Malachi 1:1-5 NRSV)​

It is pretty explicit that both texts are about Israel and its relation to the nations.

Romans 9 is part of Paul's defense of Israel. It should be read in that way because contextually Gentiles are claiming that Jews had been cut off from Abraham's blessing.
Click to expand...
Just to add-there is a Jewish saying--
that reflects the idea that taking a single life is akin to destroying an entire world. This teaching is found in the Mishnah, specifically in Sanhedrin 4:5. Here is the relevant passage:

Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5​

In the context of discussing the seriousness of testimony in capital cases, the Mishnah states:

"Therefore, the first human being was created alone, to teach you that anyone who destroys a single life is considered by Scripture to have destroyed an entire world; and anyone who saves a single life is considered by Scripture to have saved an entire world."
Click to expand...
 
Swordman said:
I guess this one rose to the top of the list when someone responded recently.

Let me make a few points:

  • When Paul writes Romans 9, there are no verse breakdowns like we have today. The way you would reference a passage would be to give a familiar quote from the broader context or story so that the hearer would remember the whole story and what was occurring.
  • The first of these references is Genesis 25:22-23. This does say that new nations/peoples are in her. So it pretty explicitly refers to two people groups and the greater (Esau's descendants, representing the Gentiles) would server the lesser (Israel, Jacob's descendants). Here is the text:
The children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is to be this way, why do I live?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said to her,​
“Two nations are in your womb,​
and two peoples born of you shall be divided;​
the one shall be stronger than the other,​
the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen. 25:22–23 NRSV)​
  • The second is from Malachi 1 and again, contextually, refers to people groups. In fact, those people groups are even named:
An oracle. The word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.​
I have loved you, says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” Is not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the LORD. Yet I have loved Jacob but I have hated Esau; I have made his hill country a desolation and his heritage a desert for jackals. If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says: They may build, but I will tear down, until they are called the wicked country, the people with whom the LORD is angry forever. Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the borders of Israel!” (Malachi 1:1-5 NRSV)​

It is pretty explicit that both texts are about Israel and its relation to the nations.

Romans 9 is part of Paul's defense of Israel. It should be read in that way because contextually Gentiles are claiming that Jews had been cut off from Abraham's blessing.
Click to expand...

I disagree to some degree but at least you took time to reason your response.

I argue that you can not establish the intent of Paul solely based upon the narrative found in chapter 9. Paul is preaching a sermon. Where he chose to began is very important to where He is going. He is a Jew seeking to create a structured narrative that produces a structured over arching conclusion. Which is why Paul begins at the beginning of humanity relative to the "Gospel" he now preached. Which also why he deals with Esau and Jacob apart from the immediate context of the position of Israel at the moment.

He is seeking to establish the heir of all things (Jesus Christ) as the focus of God's purpose in humanity.

Rom 9:6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel,
Rom 9:7 nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.”

The context of Esau and Jacob is the first and second Adam. Twins in the Incarnation.
 
Johann said:
Just to add-there is a Jewish saying--
that reflects the idea that taking a single life is akin to destroying an entire world. This teaching is found in the Mishnah, specifically in Sanhedrin 4:5. Here is the relevant passage:

Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5​

In the context of discussing the seriousness of testimony in capital cases, the Mishnah states:
Click to expand...
The "Mishnah" was edited by unbelieving Jews that hated Messiah.

Can you confirm this?
 
Swordman said:
I guess this one rose to the top of the list when someone responded recently.

Let me make a few points:

  • When Paul writes Romans 9, there are no verse breakdowns like we have today. The way you would reference a passage would be to give a familiar quote from the broader context or story so that the hearer would remember the whole story and what was occurring.
  • The first of these references is Genesis 25:22-23. This does say that new nations/peoples are in her. So it pretty explicitly refers to two people groups and the greater (Esau's descendants, representing the Gentiles) would server the lesser (Israel, Jacob's descendants). Here is the text:
The children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is to be this way, why do I live?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said to her,​
“Two nations are in your womb,​
and two peoples born of you shall be divided;​
the one shall be stronger than the other,​
the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen. 25:22–23 NRSV)​
  • The second is from Malachi 1 and again, contextually, refers to people groups. In fact, those people groups are even named:
An oracle. The word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.​
I have loved you, says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” Is not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the LORD. Yet I have loved Jacob but I have hated Esau; I have made his hill country a desolation and his heritage a desert for jackals. If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says: They may build, but I will tear down, until they are called the wicked country, the people with whom the LORD is angry forever. Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the borders of Israel!” (Malachi 1:1-5 NRSV)​

It is pretty explicit that both texts are about Israel and its relation to the nations.

Romans 9 is part of Paul's defense of Israel. It should be read in that way because contextually Gentiles are claiming that Jews had been cut off from Abraham's blessing.
Click to expand...
Much appreciated brother your input and insight is welcomed !
 
praise_yeshua said:
I disagree to some degree but at least you took time to reason your response.

I argue that you can not establish the intent of Paul solely based upon the narrative found in chapter 9. Paul is preaching a sermon. Where he chose to began is very important to where He is going. He is a Jew seeking to create a structured narrative that produces a structured over arching conclusion. Which is why Paul begins at the beginning of humanity relative to the "Gospel" he now preached. Which also why he deals with Esau and Jacob apart from the immediate context of the position of Israel at the moment.

He is seeking to establish the heir of all things (Jesus Christ) as the focus of God's purpose in humanity.

Rom 9:6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel,
Rom 9:7 nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.”

The context of Esau and Jacob is the first and second Adam. Twins in the Incarnation.
Click to expand...
I think you and @Swordman can have some very good discussions. :)
 
praise_yeshua said:
God drove them from safety to "have it their way". This results in inevitable sin among us today. This results in inevitable sin among us today but I do not believe it was so "from the beginning".
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that your beginning starts with Adam but what about us, me and thee? If we are created on earth by conception, then where did our sinfulness, our propensity to sin come from?

IF is comes from Adam then it comes from Adam by the will of GOD, and GOD is essentially using Adam to create sinful people separated from HIM by no choice to sin of their own. The doublethink proposition that GOD creates no evil yet we are evil in Adam by HIS will doesn't survive open minded scrutiny.

My beginning starts before the foundation of the earth for all, for everyone ever created in HIS image and we all saw the creation of the physical universe, Job 38:7. And all sinners made their personal choice by their free will to either rebuke GOD eternally and so become reprobate in HIS sight or to accept YHWH's deity but then chose to rebel against HIS commands, thus needing to be brought back into the fold by Christ, the Son.

ImCo:
No one is guilty of any sin or has a propensity to sin except by their own free will decision to sin against HIM.

No one is subject to death and suffering except by their free will decision, by their own will not by HIS will, to be sinful in HIS sight (except Christ of course).

And, only sinners by their own free will are born into mankind as the sinful people of His kingdom or the sinful people of the evil one.
 
TedT said:
I'm pretty sure that your beginning starts with Adam but what about us, me and thee? If we are created on earth by conception, then where did our sinfulness, our propensity to sin come from?
Click to expand...

The battle between good and evil in the children of Adam and Eve. Cain and Abel. Cain and Seth. Man has devolved from the beginning. Not evolved. Evolvement carries the connation of "betterment". The battle that brought Grace to humanity in the lives of Noah. Mankind whittled away and cut down to 8 souls.

TedT said:
IF is comes from Adam then it comes from Adam by the will of GOD, and GOD is essentially using Adam to create sinful people separated from HIM by no choice to sin of their own. The doublethink proposition that GOD creates no evil yet we are evil in Adam by HIS will doesn't survive open minded scrutiny.
Click to expand...

Sin entered this world through Adam.

This is a very good conversation. I appreciate the dialogue. I really do. I welcome the opportunity to share my beliefs in this. Most people just repeat what others have told them. Sometimes this is good. Sometimes it is bad.

Evil originated long before mankind. Sin entered this world through Adam. Death entered this world through sin. Sin when it is finished, it brings forth death.

When God decided to make man in His own image and after His own likeness, Adam was just part of the process. Somewhat of a "beginning" to the process. To grow Adam must be faced with tangible events that would challenge his perspective. He must "learn to choose the good". Freedom in choose is essential to any sense of good.

Impeccability is not entirely the inability to choose differently, it is the quality of perfection innate to God wherein it is contrary to His very nature to sin. In other words. He is "ABOVE SIN". Too good to need change. Too perfect to be different. @civic

For a created being to even get close to Him, it requires experience. This is our "god experience" in this life. The "willing servant" of Exodus 21 and Deut 15.

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

The confession of Peter... "Where shall we go".....

Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,

We must learn of our own freewill or it means nothing to us.
 
civic said:
yes in isolating verses from their context, changing the meaning of words/phrases where they read their theology into them. Its nothing but eisegesis and poor hermenuetics.

No one starts their Christian life believing the doctrines of grace- they must be taught them, its a form of brainwashing.
Click to expand...
No one starts life believing the gospel. They must be taught it. Is that brainwashing? Atheists claim Christians are simply brainwashed all the time.
 
Presby02 said:
No one starts life believing the gospel. They must be taught it. Is that brainwashing? Atheists claim Christians are simply brainwashed all the time.
Click to expand...
I believe he is referring to a situation where one believes and then get saved and is then introduced to Calvinism

as he stated

No one starts their Christian life believing the doctrines of grace- they must be taught them, its a form of brainwashing.
 
TomL said:
I believe he is referring to a situation where one believes and then get saved and is then introduced to Calvinism

as he stated

No one starts their Christian life believing the doctrines of grace- they must be taught them, its a form of brainwashing.
Click to expand...
As you were introduced to Provisionism. You are brainwashed
 
Presby02 said:
No one starts life believing the gospel. They must be taught it. Is that brainwashing? Atheists claim Christians are simply brainwashed all the time.
Click to expand...
nice try those who believe the gospel and are saved believers NEVER start out as calvinists- they become them after they hear the teachings of men.

next
 

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