I can forgive you for your ignorance on this passage since few people have come close to understanding this text. You can keep trying to misrepresent Paul's points though.
Israel is the Elect of God
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
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jeremiah1five
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Scripture CANNOT be broken.
Not even God can break His own Word.
Under the Law the animal sacrifice atoned for the sins of the children of Israel ONLY. The high priest did not leave Israel, go to Gentiles (non-Hebrews) and offer sacrifices or pray for them and their sin. The Law and the sacrifice was for the children of Israel and Christ as Lamb of God was sacrificed finally and eternally for the children of Israel and Gentiles are not children of Israel nor are they Abraham's seed.
So, take your false heretical Gentile theology somewhere else and peddle it to someone else. I am a Biblical Christian. That's the only kind there is in existence. If one's Christianity is not Biblical, then it is NOT Christianity.
I hold to the Scripture, not false Gentile beliefs that are unmoored from Hebrew roots.
not sure how you be a christian when you deny the NT. go figure. You also seem to admit that you were part of the people that denied Christ when he came and thus were destroyed because of rejecting their source of reconciliation.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets is the ONLY Scripture there is.
All the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation are only testimony and discussion of the events and things that took place in Israel and among the Jewish people far and wide since Pentecost.
That's all it is. Discussion.
But Gentiles want to elevate letters and such up there with the very Word of God from Lawgivers and prophets, and kings, and others who prophesied what God wanted and what He has done and what He will do with this elect, covenant people chosen from before the foundation of the world. A people called Israel.
So what do we have to talk about? If you do not trust the scriptures, how can you even trust that Jesus came. Also you fail to recognize that in Rome the non-Hebrew gentiles rejected the Jews. If you want to say that these were just Jews rejecting jews and that Paul was writing to tell the Jews not to reject Jews, you kind of are in this endless loop of circular reasoning.
You would not hold to any of your ideas if you actually trusted and understood the Old Testament.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
That's exactly what was written: "Jews to not reject Jews," in this case, Jesus born of a woman, born of the tribe of Judah, born under the Law to "redeem those under the Law" identified as the children of Israel.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn 20:30–31.
Seems YOU ARE THE ONE who rejects Scripture through your ignorance of Scripture and the plan of God for His Elect people whom He foreknew.
I rest my case.
That is indeed an ignorant assessment of my knowledge. If you can prove a proper interpretation of NT writings of God's word, you have a chance to start making arguments. For Romans, you have to say that Jewish followers of Christ were expelled from Rome just leaving Jewish followers of Christ to preserve the church in Rome during that time. Then you would be saying that Paul somehow became the prime writer in the NT and identified the strong in Rom 14 as those who did not continue following the Jewish laws and customs.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Saul wasn't the prime writer. Peter, James, John, Matthew, Luke, Mark, all wrote. It was the decision of Gentiles to include a majority of Saul's letters to support their false theology since Saul was "apostle to the Gentiles" that Gentiles are in the Abrahamic Covenant - which they never were - and is self-serving to complement Gentile theft of everything God gave to Abraham and his seed (Israel) and to keep it themselves. One clue was their first disconnecting and unmooring true, biblical (Jewish) Christianity from its Hebrew roots after the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple..
no matter how much you repeat nonsense, it still remains nonsense. Israel had its benefits in Christ. The nations in general have their benefits in Christ. You have to prove yourself more accurate than Paul, Peter, Luke etc. But you have not even said anything with substance.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The nations that "come from thee" (Abraham) are the descendants of Ishmael and Esau. Abraham's descendants are to be as numerous as the stars in the heavens and the sand on the seashore.
I prove my accuracy by saying the SAME THING as Saul, Peter, Luke, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and the rest of the writers of the Hebrew Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.
Pay attention to Saul as I quote him and agree with him and in quoting him I say the SAME THING as him:
4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom
as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.
Do you believe this Word without adding to it, changing it, breaking it, or subtracting from it?
Yea or Nay?
I see that you have run into Paul expressing his desire that his own countrymen could be saved if possible, despite their low acceptance of teh Messiah. His argument to the gentiles is that "all israel is saved" because all israel refers now to the minority remnant that got saved. Great passage. Read the passage to understand what Paul is addressing. You might also check a commentary to get a bit better insight than you have shared.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
It doesn't matter what Saul desires. God doesn't consult Saul as to who He will save. God is following the book of life of the lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world. His whole purpose for creation is to take out a people to Himself and He began doing that beginning with a man named Abram the Hebrew.
So you prefer that Paul should have hated his own countrymen according to the flesh? I think his words express compassion and should be well-accepted. And God indeed is taking a people for himself, which now includes people from across the world since there is no longer a Jew-gentile distinction. You also forget that Jesus said God is able to raise up offspring of Abraham from these stones. You miss so many words of Jesus that it is amazing you even claim to be a Christian. You prefer exalting your own vision over scripture.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Yes, God is taking out a people for Himself: Hebrews, also known as the children of Israel, the Jews. Abraham's seed.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deut. 7:5–8.
Holy, chosen, special, ABOVE, and loved. God NEVER says this about His enemy the hated uncircumcised, unclean, non-covenant, non-Hebrew Gentiles. But this is the attitude of God towards these people:
17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.
Vanity of vanities! (which means, WASTE, as in Gentile nations are a WASTE of my time.
you totally missed how Jesus said he can raise up seed of Abraham from these stones. You do not have sufficient exegetical skills to keep all the salient points in view when you make up your doctrines.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Jesus can anything He wants, especially the power and ability to "raise up children of Abraham" from stones, but it remained unnecessary since we are not saved by what we do but by what God and His Christ does.
There is no such thing as "accept Jesus into your heart" or "confess with your mouth and believe in your heart" since salvation in Scripture was never synergistic but monergistic. After the sacrifice was made for the sins of the children of Israel the blood was sprinkled upon the people determinately and without asking since the whole Law of Moses given to the children of Israel came with a sacrificial system of yearly atonement for their sins and which in the process of time God would deal with their sins eternally through the cross of Calvary.
Salvation is OF THE JEWS, NOT of the Gentiles.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Sent to Gentiles because the majority of Jews live in Gentile lands and God is keeping His promise to Israel that their Messiah had come in the Person of Yeshua.
Complete
Well-known member
Hello @jeremiah1five,
Unfortunately you are refusing to believe what is written, but overlay what is written with your own preconceptions, to the detriment of truth.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Please identify what I am refusing to believe or what is written?
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