brightfame52
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Thats what you here for to post, feel free, nothing changed what I posted
Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?
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brightfame52
Active Member
I already noted. Nothing here changes anything. Drawing brings to Faith
brightfame52
Active Member
The learning is part of the drawing that brings to Faith
sorry no as even these Calvinist authors note
It is not enough to hear God’s voice. He must heed it and learn it and do it. This is a voluntary response. This one inevitably comes to Christ.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 6:45
Shall be all taught of God. This explains the preceding verse. It is by the teaching of his Word and Spirit that men are drawn to God. This shows that it is not compulsory, and that there is no obstacle in the way but a strong voluntary ignorance and unwillingness.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 248–249.
Let’s examine the phrase “No one can come”. The verb “come” had been used prior in Jesus’ dialogue which lays a foundation for what Christ meant by His word usage, “And Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst'” (vs 35). The Lord has clearly delineated a synonymical expression with the words come and believe, therefore we can positively conclude that those who “come” to Jesus are those who actually “believe” in him. In verses 37 and 39, we find that all who the Father gives to him will come; and all that He has given Jesus will not be lost and will be raised up the last day – thus affirming God’s initiative in salvation and the security found to those who believe in His Son.
Jesus identifies the will of his Father for the second time in verse 40 stating, “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Further examination of this text will help us to discover a two-fold distinction presented by Jesus in that everyone who ” sees” the Son, must secondly, “believe” in the Son in order to be saved. This is an extremely vital point because we find Jesus stating in verse 36, “But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.” Thus, we find a distinguishing trait that there are a people which actually see but do not believe, thus nullifying salvation and the promise of being raised up at the last day. It is noteworthy to highlight that only the actions of man are taken into account in this verse, wherein he is required to both see and subsequently believe in order for his salvation to be affirmed.
This brings us to the primary verse in question (44), which must be read in conjunction with verse 45. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day… Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” We find two primary points of emphasis that are explicitly mentioned:
1) The same affirmation reiterated from verses 37 and 39 reveal that salvation is initiated by the Father’s drawing to the Son. Hence, no one can come (believe) unless they have been enabled.
2) Those who believe (come) must first hear and learn. This, too, identifies the two-fold reiteration that placed the responsibility on the individual as previously stated in verse 40, declaring that “Everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have everlasting life.” This amounts to the understanding that seeing is paralleled to hearing, and learning is synonymous to believing. Dr. A.T Roberson, said the following, regarding verse 45, “It is not enough to hear God’s voice. He must heed it and learn it and do it. This is a voluntary response. This one inevitably comes to Christ.”
By taking into account the context rendered, we find that Jesus was responding to a disbelieving crowd who murmured against him (vs. 43). Hence, one would accurately conclude that his response in vs. 44 was spoken as a statement of truth in light of those who would belong to the fold, and not as a doctrine of arbitrary, irresistible selection of only a few. These are passages of affirmation and not of isolation, and should be read in such light. All that were present did see, affirming their accountability that they all had to personally choose to believe by the invitation offered – while those who rejected the offer to eat his flesh and drink his blood would be accountable for resisting the grace that was made available to them. Top Johannine scholar, Dr. Raymond Brown stated,
“If the Jews will desist from their murmuring, which is indicative of a refusal to believe, and will leave themselves open to God’s movement, He will draw them to Jesus… This internal moving of the heart by the Father will enable them to believe in the Son and thus possess eternal life”.
The murmuring of the crowd and willful rejection to Christ’s offer is recognized by leading theologians in noting that the conditions, atmosphere and attitude of the people, are taken into account in concert to what Jesus was conveying to them. The Lord told a similar crowd, “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life” (Joh 5:40), and later “If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine…” (Joh 7:17). Renowned Scholar, FF. Bruce stated, regarding this passage,
“Those who come to Christ are here described as being drawn to him by the Father; in John 12:32 it is Christ who, by being ‘lifted up from the earth’, draws all without distinction to himself. One way or the other, the divine initiative in the salvation of believers is emphasized. The responsibility of men and women in the matter of coming to Christ is not overlooked (cf. John 5:40); but none at all would come unless divinely persuaded and enabled to do so.”
Hence, the idea of men being held accountable for rejecting His teachings was not because they “could not” believe, but because they chose to resist His message. Alfred Eldersheim, whose masterpiece still stands as a leading reference on the life of Jesus, also took into account the conditions that surrounded Jesus in his discourse in John 6, and noted that Jesus left the people without excuse due to their decisions to reject His teaching and His Father’s drawing, being based on their murmuring and unwillingness to respond.
“It would have been an excuse of Jewish unbelief, and indeed entirely discordant with all Christ’s teaching if the inability to come were regarded as other than personal and moral, springing from man’s ignorance and opposition to spiritual things. No man can come to Christ – such is the condition of the human mind and heart, that coming to Christ as a disciple is, not an outward, but an inward moral impossibility – except the Father draw him. And this, again, not in the sense of any constraint, but in that of the personal, moral, loving influence and revelation, to which Christ afterwards refers when he saith: ‘And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Myself'” (John 12:32).
No one can come to Christ is best understood to mean that no one is “able” to come to him, unless they are first drawn. Therefore, the drawing of God makes possible the person’s ability to effectively respond and come to Jesus through faith. This posits the necessity of God’s enabling grace upon the individual’s life through the preached word of God, along with man’s willingness to accept the invitation and come to Christ in response. The definitive message is that no one comes to God independently by their own power or will, and that the initial act of salvation always begins with God the Savior, and apart from His initial gracious drawing of the Holy Spirit through the preached gospel no one can possibly come. Brian R
brightfame52
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Bingo !!!
As usual you ignore all rebuttal to your theology
sorry no as even these Calvinist authors note
It is not enough to hear God’s voice. He must heed it and learn it and do it. This is a voluntary response. This one inevitably comes to Christ.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 6:45
Shall be all taught of God. This explains the preceding verse. It is by the teaching of his Word and Spirit that men are drawn to God. This shows that it is not compulsory, and that there is no obstacle in the way but a strong voluntary ignorance and unwillingness.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 248–249.
Let’s examine the phrase “No one can come”. The verb “come” had been used prior in Jesus’ dialogue which lays a foundation for what Christ meant by His word usage, “And Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst'” (vs 35). The Lord has clearly delineated a synonymical expression with the words come and believe, therefore we can positively conclude that those who “come” to Jesus are those who actually “believe” in him. In verses 37 and 39, we find that all who the Father gives to him will come; and all that He has given Jesus will not be lost and will be raised up the last day – thus affirming God’s initiative in salvation and the security found to those who believe in His Son.
Jesus identifies the will of his Father for the second time in verse 40 stating, “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Further examination of this text will help us to discover a two-fold distinction presented by Jesus in that everyone who ” sees” the Son, must secondly, “believe” in the Son in order to be saved. This is an extremely vital point because we find Jesus stating in verse 36, “But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.” Thus, we find a distinguishing trait that there are a people which actually see but do not believe, thus nullifying salvation and the promise of being raised up at the last day. It is noteworthy to highlight that only the actions of man are taken into account in this verse, wherein he is required to both see and subsequently believe in order for his salvation to be affirmed.
This brings us to the primary verse in question (44), which must be read in conjunction with verse 45. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day… Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” We find two primary points of emphasis that are explicitly mentioned:
1) The same affirmation reiterated from verses 37 and 39 reveal that salvation is initiated by the Father’s drawing to the Son. Hence, no one can come (believe) unless they have been enabled.
2) Those who believe (come) must first hear and learn. This, too, identifies the two-fold reiteration that placed the responsibility on the individual as previously stated in verse 40, declaring that “Everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have everlasting life.” This amounts to the understanding that seeing is paralleled to hearing, and learning is synonymous to believing. Dr. A.T Roberson, said the following, regarding verse 45, “It is not enough to hear God’s voice. He must heed it and learn it and do it. This is a voluntary response. This one inevitably comes to Christ.”
By taking into account the context rendered, we find that Jesus was responding to a disbelieving crowd who murmured against him (vs. 43). Hence, one would accurately conclude that his response in vs. 44 was spoken as a statement of truth in light of those who would belong to the fold, and not as a doctrine of arbitrary, irresistible selection of only a few. These are passages of affirmation and not of isolation, and should be read in such light. All that were present did see, affirming their accountability that they all had to personally choose to believe by the invitation offered – while those who rejected the offer to eat his flesh and drink his blood would be accountable for resisting the grace that was made available to them. Top Johannine scholar, Dr. Raymond Brown stated,
“If the Jews will desist from their murmuring, which is indicative of a refusal to believe, and will leave themselves open to God’s movement, He will draw them to Jesus… This internal moving of the heart by the Father will enable them to believe in the Son and thus possess eternal life”.
The murmuring of the crowd and willful rejection to Christ’s offer is recognized by leading theologians in noting that the conditions, atmosphere and attitude of the people, are taken into account in concert to what Jesus was conveying to them. The Lord told a similar crowd, “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life” (Joh 5:40), and later “If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine…” (Joh 7:17). Renowned Scholar, FF. Bruce stated, regarding this passage,
“Those who come to Christ are here described as being drawn to him by the Father; in John 12:32 it is Christ who, by being ‘lifted up from the earth’, draws all without distinction to himself. One way or the other, the divine initiative in the salvation of believers is emphasized. The responsibility of men and women in the matter of coming to Christ is not overlooked (cf. John 5:40); but none at all would come unless divinely persuaded and enabled to do so.”
Hence, the idea of men being held accountable for rejecting His teachings was not because they “could not” believe, but because they chose to resist His message. Alfred Eldersheim, whose masterpiece still stands as a leading reference on the life of Jesus, also took into account the conditions that surrounded Jesus in his discourse in John 6, and noted that Jesus left the people without excuse due to their decisions to reject His teaching and His Father’s drawing, being based on their murmuring and unwillingness to respond.
“It would have been an excuse of Jewish unbelief, and indeed entirely discordant with all Christ’s teaching if the inability to come were regarded as other than personal and moral, springing from man’s ignorance and opposition to spiritual things. No man can come to Christ – such is the condition of the human mind and heart, that coming to Christ as a disciple is, not an outward, but an inward moral impossibility – except the Father draw him. And this, again, not in the sense of any constraint, but in that of the personal, moral, loving influence and revelation, to which Christ afterwards refers when he saith: ‘And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Myself'” (John 12:32).
No one can come to Christ is best understood to mean that no one is “able” to come to him, unless they are first drawn. Therefore, the drawing of God makes possible the person’s ability to effectively respond and come to Jesus through faith. This posits the necessity of God’s enabling grace upon the individual’s life through the preached word of God, along with man’s willingness to accept the invitation and come to Christ in response. The definitive message is that no one comes to God independently by their own power or will, and that the initial act of salvation always begins with God the Savior, and apart from His initial gracious drawing of the Holy Spirit through the preached gospel no one can possibly come. Brian R
brightfame52
Active Member
civic
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
the listening and learning is part of the drawing, the regeneration
Nowhere does the text say they came because they listened and learned. They come because they were given by the Father to the Son.
brightfame52
Active Member
Correct, Jn 6:37
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
civic
Active Member
Sure it does in John 6:45- It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Are you even to cowardly to quote what you supposedly are replying to
As usual you ignore all rebuttal to your theology
sorry no as even these Calvinist authors note
It is not enough to hear God’s voice. He must heed it and learn it and do it. This is a voluntary response. This one inevitably comes to Christ.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 6:45
Shall be all taught of God. This explains the preceding verse. It is by the teaching of his Word and Spirit that men are drawn to God. This shows that it is not compulsory, and that there is no obstacle in the way but a strong voluntary ignorance and unwillingness.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 248–249.
Let’s examine the phrase “No one can come”. The verb “come” had been used prior in Jesus’ dialogue which lays a foundation for what Christ meant by His word usage, “And Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst'” (vs 35). The Lord has clearly delineated a synonymical expression with the words come and believe, therefore we can positively conclude that those who “come” to Jesus are those who actually “believe” in him. In verses 37 and 39, we find that all who the Father gives to him will come; and all that He has given Jesus will not be lost and will be raised up the last day – thus affirming God’s initiative in salvation and the security found to those who believe in His Son.
Jesus identifies the will of his Father for the second time in verse 40 stating, “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Further examination of this text will help us to discover a two-fold distinction presented by Jesus in that everyone who ” sees” the Son, must secondly, “believe” in the Son in order to be saved. This is an extremely vital point because we find Jesus stating in verse 36, “But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.” Thus, we find a distinguishing trait that there are a people which actually see but do not believe, thus nullifying salvation and the promise of being raised up at the last day. It is noteworthy to highlight that only the actions of man are taken into account in this verse, wherein he is required to both see and subsequently believe in order for his salvation to be affirmed.
This brings us to the primary verse in question (44), which must be read in conjunction with verse 45. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day… Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” We find two primary points of emphasis that are explicitly mentioned:
1) The same affirmation reiterated from verses 37 and 39 reveal that salvation is initiated by the Father’s drawing to the Son. Hence, no one can come (believe) unless they have been enabled.
2) Those who believe (come) must first hear and learn. This, too, identifies the two-fold reiteration that placed the responsibility on the individual as previously stated in verse 40, declaring that “Everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have everlasting life.” This amounts to the understanding that seeing is paralleled to hearing, and learning is synonymous to believing. Dr. A.T Roberson, said the following, regarding verse 45, “It is not enough to hear God’s voice. He must heed it and learn it and do it. This is a voluntary response. This one inevitably comes to Christ.”
By taking into account the context rendered, we find that Jesus was responding to a disbelieving crowd who murmured against him (vs. 43). Hence, one would accurately conclude that his response in vs. 44 was spoken as a statement of truth in light of those who would belong to the fold, and not as a doctrine of arbitrary, irresistible selection of only a few. These are passages of affirmation and not of isolation, and should be read in such light. All that were present did see, affirming their accountability that they all had to personally choose to believe by the invitation offered – while those who rejected the offer to eat his flesh and drink his blood would be accountable for resisting the grace that was made available to them. Top Johannine scholar, Dr. Raymond Brown stated,
“If the Jews will desist from their murmuring, which is indicative of a refusal to believe, and will leave themselves open to God’s movement, He will draw them to Jesus… This internal moving of the heart by the Father will enable them to believe in the Son and thus possess eternal life”.
The murmuring of the crowd and willful rejection to Christ’s offer is recognized by leading theologians in noting that the conditions, atmosphere and attitude of the people, are taken into account in concert to what Jesus was conveying to them. The Lord told a similar crowd, “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life” (Joh 5:40), and later “If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine…” (Joh 7:17). Renowned Scholar, FF. Bruce stated, regarding this passage,
“Those who come to Christ are here described as being drawn to him by the Father; in John 12:32 it is Christ who, by being ‘lifted up from the earth’, draws all without distinction to himself. One way or the other, the divine initiative in the salvation of believers is emphasized. The responsibility of men and women in the matter of coming to Christ is not overlooked (cf. John 5:40); but none at all would come unless divinely persuaded and enabled to do so.”
Hence, the idea of men being held accountable for rejecting His teachings was not because they “could not” believe, but because they chose to resist His message. Alfred Eldersheim, whose masterpiece still stands as a leading reference on the life of Jesus, also took into account the conditions that surrounded Jesus in his discourse in John 6, and noted that Jesus left the people without excuse due to their decisions to reject His teaching and His Father’s drawing, being based on their murmuring and unwillingness to respond.
“It would have been an excuse of Jewish unbelief, and indeed entirely discordant with all Christ’s teaching if the inability to come were regarded as other than personal and moral, springing from man’s ignorance and opposition to spiritual things. No man can come to Christ – such is the condition of the human mind and heart, that coming to Christ as a disciple is, not an outward, but an inward moral impossibility – except the Father draw him. And this, again, not in the sense of any constraint, but in that of the personal, moral, loving influence and revelation, to which Christ afterwards refers when he saith: ‘And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Myself'” (John 12:32).
No one can come to Christ is best understood to mean that no one is “able” to come to him, unless they are first drawn. Therefore, the drawing of God makes possible the person’s ability to effectively respond and come to Jesus through faith. This posits the necessity of God’s enabling grace upon the individual’s life through the preached word of God, along with man’s willingness to accept the invitation and come to Christ in response. The definitive message is that no one comes to God independently by their own power or will, and that the initial act of salvation always begins with God the Savior, and apart from His initial gracious drawing of the Holy Spirit through the preached gospel no one can possibly come. Brian R
Who is "they all"? Those given the the Son by the Father. Not because they heard and learned. But to hear and learn from the Father.
brightfame52
Active Member
And for them to hear, and learn from the Father, they could not have been spiritually dead in sin, so they were spiritually made alive in the teaching process, it is spiritual teahing and learning.
Those that are the Father's
John 17:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Johann
Active Member
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