Well, know standard Calvinist doctrine better. That poster appears to be a hyper Calvinist.
Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?
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Johann
Well-known member
I believe you have conflated salvation and sanctification, and have also misplaced the role of regeneration within that framework.
GREEK VERB TENSES USED FOR SALVATION
Salvation is not a product, but a daily relationship with God in Christ. It is not finished when one trusts Christ; it has only begun (an example may be a gate and then a road, cf. Matt. 7:13-14)! It is not a fire insurance policy, nor a ticket to heaven, but a life of growing Christlikeness (cf. Rom. 8:28-29; 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:1; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3,7; 5:23; 1 Pet. 1:15; see SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRISTIAN GROWTH). We have a proverbial saying in America that says the longer a couple lives together, the more they begin to look alike. This is the goal of salvation (see SPECIAL TOPIC: SALVATION [NT])! Salvation is an initial response followed by a daily response throughout life (see SPECIAL TOPIC: COVENANT ). All of the Greek VERB TENSES are used to describe NT spiritual salvation.
SALVATION AS A COMPLETED ACTION (AORIST)
● Acts 15:11; 16:31
● Romans 8:24
● 2 Timothy 1:9
● Titus 3:5
● Romans 13:11 (combines the AORIST with a future orientation)
SALVATION AS A STATE OF BEING BROUGHT ABOUT BY A PREVIOUS ACT (PERFECT)
● Ephesians 2:5,8
SALVATION AS A CONTINUING PROCESS THROUGH LIFE (PRESENT)
● 1 Corinthians 1:18; 15:2
● 2 Corinthians 2:15
● Philippians 2:12
● 1 Peter 3:21
SALVATION AS A FUTURE CONSUMMATION (FUTURE in VERB TENSE or context)
● Romans 5:9,10; 10:9,13
● 1 Corinthians 3:15; 5:5
● Philippians 1:28
● 1 Thessalonians 5:8-9
● Hebrews 1:14; 9:28
● 1 Peter 1:5
Therefore, NT salvation begins with an initial faith decision (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 10:9-13), but this must issue in lifestyle faith (cf. Rom. 8:29; Gal. 2:19-20; Eph. 1:4; 2:10), which will one day be consummated in sight (cf. 1 John 3:2). This final state is called glorification (cf. Rom. 8:28-30). This process can be illustrated as
initial salvation ‒ justification (saved from the penalty of sin)
progressive salvation ‒ sanctification (saved from the power of sin)
final salvation ‒ glorification (saved from the presence of sin)
For a good discussion of this threefold aspect of salvation, see Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, pp. 311-313.
SPECIAL TOPIC: GREEK VERB TENSES USED FOR SALVATION
Salvation (Greek Verb Tenses) -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
freebiblecommentary.org
NT HOLINESS / SANCTIFICATION
The NT asserts that when sinners turn to Jesus in repentance and faith (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21), they are instantaneously justified and sanctified. This is their new position in Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to them (cf. Gen. 15:6; Romans 4). They are declared right and holy (a forensic act of God).
But the NT also urges believers on to holiness or sanctification. It is both
a theological position in the finished work of Jesus Christ
a call to be Christlike in attitude and actions in daily life. As salvation is a free gift and a cost-everything lifestyle, so too, is sanctification (i.e., Eastern Literature [biblical paradoxes]).
SPECIAL TOPIC: EASTERN LITERATURE (biblical paradoxes)
Initial Justification and Sanctification A Progressive Sanctification, Christlikeness
Acts 26:18
Romans 15:16
1 Corinthians 1:2-3,30; 6:11
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Hebrews 2:11; 10:10,14; 13:12
1 Peter 1:2 Romans 6:19
2 Corinthians 7:1
Ephesians 1:4; 2:10
1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:3-4,7; 5:2
1 Timothy 2:15
2 Timothy 2:21
1 Peter 1:15-16
Hebrews 12:14
The goal of salvation is not heaven when we die but Christlikeness now (cf. Rom. 8:28-29; 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:1; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:15), so that those who see our witness may be drawn to Jesus and go to heaven with us! Sanctification, like justification, is
a gift and a choice
an INDICATIVE and an IMPERATIVE
a trophy and a race
SPECIAL TOPIC: HOLY
SPECIAL TOPIC: HOLY ONE
SPECIAL TOPIC: SANCTIFICATION
Sanctification -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
freebiblecommentary.org
Another word for regeneration is rebirth, related to the biblical phrase “born again.” Our rebirth is distinguished from our first birth, when we were conceived physically and inherited our sin nature. The new birth is a spiritual, holy, and heavenly birth that results in our being made alive spiritually. Man in his natural state is “dead in trespasses and sins” until he is “made alive” (regenerated) by Christ. This happens when he places his faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:1).
Regeneration is a radical change. Just as our physical birth resulted in a new individual entering the earthly realm, our spiritual birth results in a new person entering the heavenly realm (Ephesians 2:6). After regeneration, we begin to see and hear and seek after divine things; we begin to live a life of faith and holiness. Now Christ is formed in the hearts; now we are partakers of the divine nature, having been made new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17). God, not man, is the source of this transformation (Ephesians 2:1, 8). God’s great love and free gift, His rich grace and abundant mercy, are the cause of the rebirth. The mighty power of God—the power that raised Christ from the dead—is displayed in the regeneration and conversion of sinners (Ephesians 1:19–20).
Regeneration is necessary. Sinful human flesh cannot stand in God’s presence. In His conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus said twice that a man must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3, 7). Regeneration is not optional, for “flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3:6). Physical birth fits us for earth; spiritual rebirth fits us for heaven. See Ephesians 2:1; 1 Peter 1:23; John 1:13; 1 John 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18. Regeneration is part of what God does for us at the moment of salvation, along with sealing (Ephesians 1:14), adoption (Galatians 4:5), reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18–20), etc. Regeneration is God’s making a person spiritually alive, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ. Prior to salvation we were not God’s children (John 1:12–13); rather, we were children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3; Romans 5:18–20). Before salvation, we were degenerate; after salvation we are regenerated. The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1), new life (Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 5:17), and eternal sonship (John 1:12–13; Galatians 3:26). Regeneration begins the process of sanctification wherein we become the people God intends us to be (Romans 8:28–30).
The only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. No amount of good works or keeping of the Law can regenerate the heart. “By works of the law no human being will be justified in [God’s] sight” (Romans 3:20). Only Christ offers a cure for the total depravity of the human heart. We don’t need renovation or reformation or reorganization; we need rebirth.
What is regeneration according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
What is regeneration according to the Bible? What does it mean to be regenerated spiritually?
www.gotquestions.org
Palingenesis - Wikipedia
So, coming back to your question-WHEN was Peter saved?
J.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Thanks a lot for the comprehensive and interesting post, Johann.
I am conflating the concepts. Sure I am. I invite you to reflect why:
The penalty of sin, the power of sin, and the presence of sin, is one and the same thing. Or, perhaps better said, three aspects of the very same thing.
Let’s say that I experience the presence of vanity in my life.
What is the problem with that? Well, I easily become slave of vanity… I fall under its power.
What is the problem of living under its power? Well, I suffer. That is the penalty of vanity.
When I am saved by the grace of God, I am saved from vanity’s presence, power and penalty… and generally this does not happen overnight. It is a process.
We should not place penalties in a distant and literal lake of fire in the afterlife.
Hell is here, hell happens now, when we allow sin to be present and exert power in our daily lives.
By the same token, salvation happens here, happens now and every single day.
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Yup, no one disputes that. The dispute is when that occurs.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
I think Jesus was clear in John 3.
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
We were dead. Through faith, we were made alive. By looking to the cross. And this new life is eternal
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
The penalty is death. That's why we must be born again. We suffer the temporal results of sin even when saved./ But if we are bnot born again, we are still under the penalty of sin.
It does not say you are "made alive by faith".
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
It says we are born again when we look to the cross in faith.
Its their in plain language.
why people can not see is beyond any comprehension.
for ny Grace we have been saved, we are made alive by faith. But finish the verse. Through faith.
No faith. no salvation no faith no regeneration
Nowhere does it say we are born again by looking to the cross. Its so plain no one sees it but you.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Calvinists are not the majority, lol. Because God decreed most of his people would be wrong for his glory, I guess.
Does that mean everyone must be right and in agreement in order for Him to be glorified?
Dizerner
Well-known member
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
No one huh
Dude, your making me laugh
the whole conversation is about being born again.
Jesus explains what it is
1. Born of water and spirit
2. Born of flesh and spirit
The when nicodemus asked HOW it can be,
Jesus answers
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You do not want to see it. thats on you
Jesus is clear
Whoever looks in faith has changed state
1. They will now never perish (they will live forever)
2. They have life (as apposed to death) and this life is forever
3. They will not be judged
4. They are not condemned.
now believe what you will. But stop mocking me. Because in mocking me you mock yourself
civic
Well-known member
Yes they were healed after they looked at the brass serpent not before which Jesus clearly stated - faith preceded life, healing
Where is faith mentioned in John 3?
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
why do I even bother, Your looking for reasons to reject the truth of Jesus words.
HE WHO BELIEVES>
its not mere belief. its living faith. Those who trusted God looked to the serpent in moses day and lived
Those who trust Christ look to the cross in faith and live
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