Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?

[civic]

No mention of faith there either. In any language

The Greek word is pisteo in in the passage several times

◄ 4100. pisteuó ►​

Strong's Lexicon pisteuó: To believe, to have faith, to trust​ Original Word: πιστεύω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: pisteuó Pronunciation: pis-tyoo'-o Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o) Definition: To believe, to have faith, to trust Meaning: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with. Word Origin: Derived from πίστις (pistis), meaning "faith" or "belief."​

​

 

[Presby02]

The Greek word is pisteo in in the passage several times

​

◄ 4100. pisteuó ►​

​

Strong's Lexicon pisteuó: To believe, to have faith, to trust Original Word: πιστεύω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: pisteuó Pronunciation: pis-tyoo'-o Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o) Definition: To believe, to have faith, to trust Meaning: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with. Word Origin: Derived from πίστις (pistis), meaning "faith" or "belief."​

Belief and faith are not synonymous terms. So there is still no mention of faith in John 3 or that it precedes faith.

​

 

[civic]

Faith is mentioned several times I’m sorry you cannot see it there , all the translations have it because the Greek word means faith

 

[Johann]

You can believe something but not necessarily have faith in it.

Faith is never mentioned in John 3. You just feel free to insert it wherever you like.

3:12 οὐ πιστεύετε you do not believe Present Active Indicative 2nd Plural
3:15 ὁ πιστεύων he who believes Present Active Participle Nom. Masc. Sing.
3:16 ὁ πιστεύων he who believes Present Active Participle Nom. Masc. Sing.
3:18a ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν he who believes in Him Present Active Participle
3:18b ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων but he who does not believe Present Active Participle
3:18c ὅτι μὴ πεπίστευκεν because he has not believed Perfect Active Indicative 3rd Sing.
3:36 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν he who believes in the Son Present Active Participle Nom. Masc. Sing.

All verbs @Presby02.

J.

 

[civic]

No mention of faith there either. In any language

Faith is belief and belief is faith

 

[TomL]

Great. Except none of this proves John had the process of regeneration in mind in John 20. You simply presuppose.

Wake up regeneration is the method by which life is given

And your calvinist peers still refute you

The Scripture representations of men’s inability are exceedingly strong. They are said to be without strength,1 captives,2 in bond age,3 asleep,4 dead,5 &c. The act by which they are delivered from their natural state, is called regeneration, quickening or giving life, renewing, resurrection, translation, creation; and it is directly ascribed to the power of God, the power that called light out of darkness, and raised up Christ from the dead.

And when the principle of spiritual life is imparted to the soul, it controls all its mental and moral energies, so that they work to its spiritual nourishment and growth in grace. The Scriptures, therefore, in teaching that regeneration is a quickening, do thereby reveal to us its nature as a work not of man, or of moral suasion, or of divine efficiency operating through second causes, but of the immediate, and therefore the almighty power of God.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 700–701.

The death and resurrection of Christ are not a mere judicial process, upon which we may rest in an outward way: for when Christ imparts to us righteousness, which is the fruit of His death and resurrection, we must experience the power of that righteousness within ourselves, and the same conduces to our spiritual resurrection. We are now, i.e., here in this life, raised up out of the life of sin into a new life. This takes place in our quickening or regeneration by the Holy Ghost and through our sanctification, not of ourselves, but “by His (Christ’s) power.” As the mortification of the old man (Ques. 43, I., 1) by the power of Christ’s death is the first part of our sanctification, so the quickening of the new man, the new life in us, by the power of His resurrection, constitutes the second part. Rom. 6:4, 6, Col. 2:12, 13, 2 Cor. 5:17, Phil. 3:9–14.

Otto Thelemann, An Aid to the Heidelberg Catechism (trans. M. Peters; Reading, PA: James I. Good, D. D, Publisher, 1896), 175.

regeneration. The manifestation of God’s *election, regeneration refers specifically to the new birth given by the Holy Spirit, bringing life to those who were spiritually dead.

Kelly M. Kapic and Wesley Vander Lugt, Pocket Dictionary of the Reformed Tradition (The IVP Pocket Reference Series; Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2013), 100–101.

Those of your own persuasion showed as much

also

those of your persausion affirm these as positing regeneration

Colossians 2:13 (LEB) — 13 And although you were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Ephesians 2:4–5 (LEB) — 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),

 

[Presby02]

Wake up regeneration is the method by which life is given

And your calvinist peers still refute you

The Scripture representations of men’s inability are exceedingly strong. They are said to be without strength,1 captives,2 in bond age,3 asleep,4 dead,5 &c. The act by which they are delivered from their natural state, is called regeneration, quickening or giving life, renewing, resurrection, translation, creation; and it is directly ascribed to the power of God, the power that called light out of darkness, and raised up Christ from the dead.

And when the principle of spiritual life is imparted to the soul, it controls all its mental and moral energies, so that they work to its spiritual nourishment and growth in grace. The Scriptures, therefore, in teaching that regeneration is a quickening, do thereby reveal to us its nature as a work not of man, or of moral suasion, or of divine efficiency operating through second causes, but of the immediate, and therefore the almighty power of God.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 700–701.

The death and resurrection of Christ are not a mere judicial process, upon which we may rest in an outward way: for when Christ imparts to us righteousness, which is the fruit of His death and resurrection, we must experience the power of that righteousness within ourselves, and the same conduces to our spiritual resurrection. We are now, i.e., here in this life, raised up out of the life of sin into a new life. This takes place in our quickening or regeneration by the Holy Ghost and through our sanctification, not of ourselves, but “by His (Christ’s) power.” As the mortification of the old man (Ques. 43, I., 1) by the power of Christ’s death is the first part of our sanctification, so the quickening of the new man, the new life in us, by the power of His resurrection, constitutes the second part. Rom. 6:4, 6, Col. 2:12, 13, 2 Cor. 5:17, Phil. 3:9–14.

Otto Thelemann, An Aid to the Heidelberg Catechism (trans. M. Peters; Reading, PA: James I. Good, D. D, Publisher, 1896), 175.

regeneration. The manifestation of God’s *election, regeneration refers specifically to the new birth given by the Holy Spirit, bringing life to those who were spiritually dead.

Kelly M. Kapic and Wesley Vander Lugt, Pocket Dictionary of the Reformed Tradition (The IVP Pocket Reference Series; Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2013), 100–101.

Those of your own persuasion showed as much

also

those of your persausion affirm these as positing regeneration

Colossians 2:13 (LEB) — 13 And although you were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Ephesians 2:4–5 (LEB) — 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),

Wake up, regeneration is a process, the method, by which life is given. It is not life itself. All your sources agree with me. Not one of your sources prove, or even attempt to, prove life in John 20 refers to the process of regeneration. They do not even list John 20:31. LOL

 

[Presby02]

Faith is belief and belief is faith

Nope. You can believe something and not necessarily have faith in it.

 

[Presby02]

3:12 οὐ πιστεύετε you do not believe Present Active Indicative 2nd Plural
3:15 ὁ πιστεύων he who believes Present Active Participle Nom. Masc. Sing.
3:16 ὁ πιστεύων he who believes Present Active Participle Nom. Masc. Sing.
3:18a ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν he who believes in Him Present Active Participle
3:18b ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων but he who does not believe Present Active Participle
3:18c ὅτι μὴ πεπίστευκεν because he has not believed Perfect Active Indicative 3rd Sing.
3:36 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν he who believes in the Son Present Active Participle Nom. Masc. Sing.

All verbs @Presby02.

J.

All irrelevant. Thank you though.please keep in mind the point of this debate is the attempt to prove faith precedes regeneration. Nowhere stated in scripture and especially in John 3.

 

[TomL]

Wake up, regeneration is a process, the method, by which life is given. It is not life itself. All your sources agree with me. Not one of your sources prove, or even attempt to, prove life in John 20 refers to the process of regeneration. They do not even list John 20:31. LOL

Absolutely missing the point

One cannot have life unless regenerated

And regeneration makes immediately alive saving

Titus 3:5 (NASB95) — 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Faith comes before it. Calvinist as noted affirm these as speaking of regeneration

Colossians 2:13 (LEB) — 13 And although you were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

forgiveness comes first having required faith

Ephesians 2:4–5 (LEB) — 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),

regeneration here is shown to be salvation.

Yet, it is saved by grace through faith as verse 8 shows.

Faith comes first

 

[Johann]

All irrelevant. Thank you though.please keep in mind the point of this debate is the attempt to prove faith precedes regeneration. Nowhere stated in scripture and especially in John 3.

@Presby02

Faith Before Life in the Gospel of John (e.g., John 1:12–13; 3:14–16; 20:31)

John 1:12–13: “But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Grammatically, the aorist active participle τοῖς πιστεύουσιν ("to those who believe") in verse 12 precedes the passive verb ἐγεννήθησαν ("were born") in verse 13.

This sequence indicates that the act of believing results in becoming children of God, i.e., regeneration is the result of faith, not its cause.

John 20:31: “These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

Here πιστεύοντες ("believing") is a present active participle, and ζωὴν ἔχητε ("you may have life") is a subjunctive verb; the Greek clearly indicates the purpose or result of believing is life-again, faith precedes spiritual life.

2. Acts 2:38, 3:19, 16:30–31 – Faith/Repentance Results in Forgiveness and Reception of the Spirit
Acts 2:38: “Repent, and be baptized… for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Peter calls his hearers to repentance and faith in response to the gospel; then they will receive the Holy Spirit, who is the agent of regeneration (Titus 3:5).

Acts 3:19: “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...”

This is consistent with faith and repentance as preconditions to receiving new life.

Acts 16:31: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...”
The imperative “believe” precedes the future result “you will be saved,” which includes regeneration.

3. Pauline Epistles: Faith As the Instrument of Receiving Life, Not the Result of It
Galatians 3:2: “Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

The rhetorical question demands the answer-they received the Spirit through faith, not prior to it.

Ephesians 1:13: “After that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.”

The temporal adverb πιστεύσαντες (“having believed”) marks a past completed act that precedes the sealing of the Spirit-again, regeneration follows belief.

Romans 5:1: “Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God...”
The order is unambiguous- faith leads to justification and peace with God-not vice versa.

4. Early Church Fathers Affirmed the Priority of Faith
Justin Martyr (First Apology, ch. 43):

“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishment and salvation are according to the choice of each man... we have believed and are persuaded that they who have chosen the good have, through prayer, been enabled to do so.”
Justin places human belief prior to the reception of divine aid, not the reverse.

Clement of Alexandria (Stromata, 2.6):

“Belief leads us by the hand to love, and from love to the knowledge of God. And this is the order of salvation.”
Faith is the doorway into divine life—not something granted only after one is made alive.

Irenaeus (Against Heresies, IV.37.2):

“Those who do not obey Him, and do not believe in His coming, have deprived themselves of the gift of life.”
Clearly, not believing means not receiving life; thus, believing is the precondition for regeneration.

5. Rebuttal of Calvinist Misuse of John 3:3 and 6:44
John 3:3: “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Calvinists argue this implies regeneration precedes faith.
However, “seeing the kingdom” is eschatological and experiential, not the act of initial faith.

Verse 14–16 explicitly ties believing to having eternal life. Nicodemus is called to believe in the Son after being told of the need to be born again-thus, the call to faith precedes reception of life.

John 6:44: “No man can come to me, except the Father draw him...”
But the “drawing” is described in verse 45: “Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.”

This "drawing" occurs through teaching and hearing-not through secret regeneration.

6. Titus 3:5 – Regeneration Follows Justification Contextually

Titus 3:5: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

The verse refers to salvation as a whole process; however, the context (vv. 4–7) connects mercy, justification, and regeneration as united, not sequentially reversed.

In v.7: “That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
Justification by faith precedes the full experience of eternal life, which includes regeneration (cf. Rom. 5:1).

The Total Scriptural Witness Places Faith Before Regeneration
From the consistent structure of Gospel proclamation in Acts, the grammar of John and Paul’s epistles, and the explicit teachings of early Christian writers, the pattern is unambiguous:

Faith comes by hearing (Rom. 10:17),
Faith leads to justification (Rom. 5:1),
Faith results in reception of the Spirit and new life (Gal. 3:2; Eph. 1:13),
Thus, regeneration follows faith, not precedes it.

Good news for the lost.

J.

 

[Presby02]

I agree.

Absolutely missing the point

One cannot have life unless regenerated

And regeneration makes immediately alive saving

Titus 3:5 (NASB95) — 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Faith comes before it. Calvinist as noted affirm these as speaking of regeneration

Colossians 2:13 (LEB) — 13 And although you were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

forgiveness comes first having required faith

Ephesians 2:4–5 (LEB) — 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),

regeneration here is shown to be salvation.

Yet, it is saved by grace through faith as verse 8 shows.

Faith comes first

Regeneration is the process whereby you are made alive. It starts with the removing of the heart of stone.

Nothing says faith comes before regeneration in scripture.

 

[civic]

I agree.

Regeneration is the process whereby you are made alive. It starts with the removing of the heart of stone.

Nothing says faith comes before regeneration in scripture.

Nothing says total depravity in scripture
Nothing says unconditional election in scripture
Nothing says limited atonement in scripture
Nothing says irresistible grace in scripture
Nothing says perseverance of the saints in scripture

So you better reject tulip

Hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

@Presby02

Faith Before Life in the Gospel of John (e.g., John 1:12–13; 3:14–16; 20:31)

John 1:12–13: “But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Grammatically, the aorist active participle τοῖς πιστεύουσιν ("to those who believe") in verse 12 precedes the passive verb ἐγεννήθησαν ("were born") in verse 13.

This sequence indicates that the act of believing results in becoming children of God, i.e., regeneration is the result of faith, not its cause.

John 20:31: “These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

Here πιστεύοντες ("believing") is a present active participle, and ζωὴν ἔχητε ("you may have life") is a subjunctive verb; the Greek clearly indicates the purpose or result of believing is life-again, faith precedes spiritual life.

2. Acts 2:38, 3:19, 16:30–31 – Faith/Repentance Results in Forgiveness and Reception of the Spirit
Acts 2:38: “Repent, and be baptized… for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Peter calls his hearers to repentance and faith in response to the gospel; then they will receive the Holy Spirit, who is the agent of regeneration (Titus 3:5).

Acts 3:19: “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...”

This is consistent with faith and repentance as preconditions to receiving new life.

Acts 16:31: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...”
The imperative “believe” precedes the future result “you will be saved,” which includes regeneration.

3. Pauline Epistles: Faith As the Instrument of Receiving Life, Not the Result of It
Galatians 3:2: “Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

The rhetorical question demands the answer-they received the Spirit through faith, not prior to it.

Ephesians 1:13: “After that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.”

The temporal adverb πιστεύσαντες (“having believed”) marks a past completed act that precedes the sealing of the Spirit-again, regeneration follows belief.

Romans 5:1: “Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God...”
The order is unambiguous- faith leads to justification and peace with God-not vice versa.

4. Early Church Fathers Affirmed the Priority of Faith
Justin Martyr (First Apology, ch. 43):

“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishment and salvation are according to the choice of each man... we have believed and are persuaded that they who have chosen the good have, through prayer, been enabled to do so.”
Justin places human belief prior to the reception of divine aid, not the reverse.

Clement of Alexandria (Stromata, 2.6):

“Belief leads us by the hand to love, and from love to the knowledge of God. And this is the order of salvation.”
Faith is the doorway into divine life—not something granted only after one is made alive.

Irenaeus (Against Heresies, IV.37.2):

“Those who do not obey Him, and do not believe in His coming, have deprived themselves of the gift of life.”
Clearly, not believing means not receiving life; thus, believing is the precondition for regeneration.

5. Rebuttal of Calvinist Misuse of John 3:3 and 6:44
John 3:3: “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Calvinists argue this implies regeneration precedes faith.
However, “seeing the kingdom” is eschatological and experiential, not the act of initial faith.

Verse 14–16 explicitly ties believing to having eternal life. Nicodemus is called to believe in the Son after being told of the need to be born again-thus, the call to faith precedes reception of life.

John 6:44: “No man can come to me, except the Father draw him...”
But the “drawing” is described in verse 45: “Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.”

This "drawing" occurs through teaching and hearing-not through secret regeneration.

6. Titus 3:5 – Regeneration Follows Justification Contextually

Titus 3:5: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

The verse refers to salvation as a whole process; however, the context (vv. 4–7) connects mercy, justification, and regeneration as united, not sequentially reversed.

In v.7: “That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
Justification by faith precedes the full experience of eternal life, which includes regeneration (cf. Rom. 5:1).

The Total Scriptural Witness Places Faith Before Regeneration
From the consistent structure of Gospel proclamation in Acts, the grammar of John and Paul’s epistles, and the explicit teachings of early Christian writers, the pattern is unambiguous:

Faith comes by hearing (Rom. 10:17),
Faith leads to justification (Rom. 5:1),
Faith results in reception of the Spirit and new life (Gal. 3:2; Eph. 1:13),
Thus, regeneration follows faith, not precedes it.

Good news for the lost.

J.

By faith or through faith is not because of faith. Faith is the means used by God. Nothing good comes from the flesh. Saving faith is a good thing. No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.

John 1:13 says specifically you were not born again by the will of man. You skipped that part.

Nothing says total depravity in scripture
Nothing says unconditional election in scripture
Nothing says limited atonement in scripture
Nothing says irresistible grace in scripture
Nothing says perseverance of the saints in scripture

So you better reject tulip

Hope this helps !!!

Exactly Thank you. So why insist it says faith precedes regenetation?

 

[civic]

By faith or through faith is not because of faith. Faith is the means used by God. Nothing good comes from the flesh. Saving faith is a good thing. No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.

John 1:13 says specifically you were not born again by the will of man. You skipped that part.

Exactly Thank you. So why insist it says faith precedes regenetation?

why do you believe in tulip ?

 

[Presby02]

The same reas

why do you believe in tulip ?

The same reason you did. I believe it is the best understanding of what scripture teaches.

 

[civic]

The same reas

The same reason you did. I believe it is the best understanding of what scripture teaches.

it doesn't teach it as you agreed that in scripture there is nothing saying the t, the u, the l, the i or the p in tulip.

 

[Presby02]

it doesn't teach it as you agreed that in scripture there is nothing saying the t, the u, the l, the i or the p in tulip.

Specifically, no. That could be said about a lot of things. I could name quite a few.

 

[Johann]

By faith or through faith is not because of faith. Faith is the means used by God. Nothing good comes from the flesh. Saving faith is a good thing. No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.

John 1:13 says specifically you were not born again by the will of man. You skipped that part.

Everything has been answered directly from Scripture, @Presby02, and you have yet to offer a single biblical rebuttal.

By faith or through faith is not because of faith. Faith is the means used by God. Nothing good comes from the flesh. Saving faith is a good thing. No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8 – τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως

"You have been saved (ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι, perfect periphrastic passive) by grace through faith (διὰ πίστεως)"

διά + genitive (πίστεως) denotes means or instrumentality, but the broader context shows faith as a human response, not a channel used apart from the human will.

There is no verb or construction here implying that God exercises faith on the sinner’s behalf or that faith is causally irrelevant.

Romans 5:1 – Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως

“Having been justified by faith” – ἐκ + genitive (ἐκ πίστεως) emphasizes source or basis.

The verb δικαιωθέντες is an aorist passive participle ("having been justified"), which follows from the human act of faith.

If faith were merely a conduit used by God after regeneration, Paul would have used a passive divine action without connecting it causally to human belief.

Galatians 3:26 – πάντες γὰρ υἱοὶ Θεοῦ ἐστὲ διὰ τῆς πίστεως ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ

The verb ἐστὲ is second person plural present indicative active, “you are.”

διὰ τῆς πίστεως is a prepositional phrase indicating the ground or instrument of becoming sons of God-not a post-regeneration effect.

This verse identifies faith as the condition for becoming children of God, thus showing it is not merely an effect or tool but a prerequisite.

“Nothing good comes from the flesh. Saving faith is a good thing.”

Great--then while Scripture affirms that the flesh cannot produce righteousness, it does not say that faith is produced by regeneration or excludes a genuine volitional human response to God’s grace.

Romans 8:8 – οἱ δὲ ἐν σαρκὶ ὄντες Θεῷ ἀρέσαι οὐ δύνανται

This describes those being in the flesh (ἐν σαρκί ὄντες), i.e., those not in Christ (cf. v. 9).

However, Scripture also shows that faith is the divinely invited response of the human will-not a meritorious work of the flesh.

Romans 10:17 – ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ
“Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
The origin of faith is not the unregenerate flesh, but the hearing of God’s word, which implies volitional, cognitive assent.

Luke 8:15 – καρδία καλὴ καὶ ἀγαθή – “an honest and good heart” receives the word

Jesus affirms that some people respond in faith with “a good and noble heart” (καρδία ἀγαθή), which contradicts the idea that no positive moral capacity exists in man prior to regeneration.

Jesus never says this heart was regenerated before the word was received; instead, they receive the word, hold it fast, and bear fruit-a process rooted in volitional faith.

“No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:3)

This verse does not teach that regeneration must occur before faith, but that genuine confession of Christ is enabled by the Spirit through the proclamation of the gospel, not through secret regeneration.

1 Corinthians 12:3 – οὐδεὶς δύναται εἰπεῖν Κύριος Ἰησοῦς εἰ μὴ ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ

“No one is able (δύναται – present middle/passive deponent) to say 'Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit.”

This is not referring to regeneration prior to confession, but to the influence of the Spirit in the gospel empowering the confession of Christ.

Compare: Romans 10:9–10 – ἐὰν ὁμολογήσῃς... καὶ πιστεύσῃς... σωθήσῃ
The subjunctive aorist verbs (ὁμολογήσῃς, πιστεύσῃς) show volitional, conditional action.
The indicative future passive σωθήσῃ (“you shall be saved”) comes after faith and confession-not before.



Faith (πίστις) is grammatically and syntactically presented as the prerequisite to justification, adoption, and life (Eph. 2:8, Gal. 3:26, Rom. 5:1), not as a byproduct of regeneration.

Prepositions like ἐκ (out of) and διά (through) combined with genitive forms of πίστις indicate real human agency in believing.

The Spirit's role is to convict and illuminate through the word (John 16:8–13; Rom. 10:17), but the response of faith remains a human action under grace (Acts 2:41, Acts 13:48 – not determinism but receptivity).

1 Corinthians 12:3 affirms the need for the Spirit in gospel conviction, but does not teach that the human will is passive or regenerated prior to faith-it affirms Spirit-enabled confession, not Spirit-caused regeneration before faith.

You hold that regeneration precedes faith; I hold that faith precedes regeneration---of course, is a point open to serious and respectful debate.

Rather than isolating verses or proof-texting, we must weigh our understanding and experience against the full counsel of Scripture-asking honestly--does what we believe align with the broader biblical witness, or does it not?

I notice I'm on the wrong thread.

J.

 

[Presby02]

Everything has been answered directly from Scripture, @Presby02, and you have yet to offer a single biblical rebuttal.

Ephesians 2:8 – τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως

"You have been saved (ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι, perfect periphrastic passive) by grace through faith (διὰ πίστεως)"

διά + genitive (πίστεως) denotes means or instrumentality, but the broader context shows faith as a human response, not a channel used apart from the human will.

There is no verb or construction here implying that God exercises faith on the sinner’s behalf or that faith is causally irrelevant.

Romans 5:1 – Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως

“Having been justified by faith” – ἐκ + genitive (ἐκ πίστεως) emphasizes source or basis.

The verb δικαιωθέντες is an aorist passive participle ("having been justified"), which follows from the human act of faith.

If faith were merely a conduit used by God after regeneration, Paul would have used a passive divine action without connecting it causally to human belief.

Galatians 3:26 – πάντες γὰρ υἱοὶ Θεοῦ ἐστὲ διὰ τῆς πίστεως ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ

The verb ἐστὲ is second person plural present indicative active, “you are.”

διὰ τῆς πίστεως is a prepositional phrase indicating the ground or instrument of becoming sons of God-not a post-regeneration effect.

This verse identifies faith as the condition for becoming children of God, thus showing it is not merely an effect or tool but a prerequisite.

“Nothing good comes from the flesh. Saving faith is a good thing.”

Great--then while Scripture affirms that the flesh cannot produce righteousness, it does not say that faith is produced by regeneration or excludes a genuine volitional human response to God’s grace.

Romans 8:8 – οἱ δὲ ἐν σαρκὶ ὄντες Θεῷ ἀρέσαι οὐ δύνανται

This describes those being in the flesh (ἐν σαρκί ὄντες), i.e., those not in Christ (cf. v. 9).

However, Scripture also shows that faith is the divinely invited response of the human will-not a meritorious work of the flesh.

Romans 10:17 – ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ
“Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
The origin of faith is not the unregenerate flesh, but the hearing of God’s word, which implies volitional, cognitive assent.

Luke 8:15 – καρδία καλὴ καὶ ἀγαθή – “an honest and good heart” receives the word

Jesus affirms that some people respond in faith with “a good and noble heart” (καρδία ἀγαθή), which contradicts the idea that no positive moral capacity exists in man prior to regeneration.

Jesus never says this heart was regenerated before the word was received; instead, they receive the word, hold it fast, and bear fruit-a process rooted in volitional faith.

“No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:3)

This verse does not teach that regeneration must occur before faith, but that genuine confession of Christ is enabled by the Spirit through the proclamation of the gospel, not through secret regeneration.

1 Corinthians 12:3 – οὐδεὶς δύναται εἰπεῖν Κύριος Ἰησοῦς εἰ μὴ ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ

“No one is able (δύναται – present middle/passive deponent) to say 'Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit.”

This is not referring to regeneration prior to confession, but to the influence of the Spirit in the gospel empowering the confession of Christ.

Compare: Romans 10:9–10 – ἐὰν ὁμολογήσῃς... καὶ πιστεύσῃς... σωθήσῃ
The subjunctive aorist verbs (ὁμολογήσῃς, πιστεύσῃς) show volitional, conditional action.
The indicative future passive σωθήσῃ (“you shall be saved”) comes after faith and confession-not before.



Faith (πίστις) is grammatically and syntactically presented as the prerequisite to justification, adoption, and life (Eph. 2:8, Gal. 3:26, Rom. 5:1), not as a byproduct of regeneration.

Prepositions like ἐκ (out of) and διά (through) combined with genitive forms of πίστις indicate real human agency in believing.

The Spirit's role is to convict and illuminate through the word (John 16:8–13; Rom. 10:17), but the response of faith remains a human action under grace (Acts 2:41, Acts 13:48 – not determinism but receptivity).

1 Corinthians 12:3 affirms the need for the Spirit in gospel conviction, but does not teach that the human will is passive or regenerated prior to faith-it affirms Spirit-enabled confession, not Spirit-caused regeneration before faith.

You hold that regeneration precedes faith; I hold that faith precedes regeneration---of course, is a point open to serious and respectful debate.

Rather than isolating verses or proof-texting, we must weigh our understanding and experience against the full counsel of Scripture-asking honestly--does what we believe align with the broader biblical witness, or does it not?

I notice I'm on the wrong thread.

J.

No it has not especially my point about John 1:13

What it does teach is that no one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.

The Bible also teaches nothing good comes from the flesh. Is saving faith and good thing?

Exactly, SAVED BY GRACE,THROUGH faith. Not because of faith. Sp of course human agency is present BY THE SPIRIT.