JoshebB
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'Interpretation' Of Prophecy
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DavidTree
Well-known member
You just committed your own exposure of error:
This = "selective use of scripture and a blatant refusal to consider and accept everything that is written"
Johann
Well-known member
I appreciate the directness of your concerns, but your claim--namely that “Matthew 24:34 is misused in reference to the Antichrist because the Antichrist is not mentioned in the chapter”-overlooks the nature of apocalyptic discourse, the intertextual connections among New Testament eschatological texts, and the larger framework of the Olivet Discourse.
First, while it is accurate that the specific term ἀντίχριστος (antichristos) does not appear in Matthew 24, it also appears only in the Johannine epistles (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7). Nowhere in the Pauline corpus or Revelation is that specific term used-yet few would dispute that "the man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3–4) or "the beast" (Revelation 13) belong to the same eschatological category. Thus, to argue that a concept cannot be referenced or alluded to unless the exact term appears in the chapter is linguistically and exegetically untenable.
Second, Jesus in Matthew 24 explicitly warns of false christs (pseudochristoi) and false prophets (pseudoprophētai) who will “deceive many” and perform signs and wonders (Matthew 24:5, 11, 24). The Greek for “false christs” is ψευδόχριστοι, which directly parallels the concept of “antichrist” in 1 John 2:18–22, where many antichrists are said to have gone out into the world. The semantic field overlaps. In fact, the Johannine understanding of “antichrist” is not that of a singular figure only, but a pattern of opposition to Christ, which Jesus himself preemptively warned against.
Third, regarding Matthew 24:34-“Truly, I say to you, this generation (ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη) will not pass away until all these things take place”--the matter hinges not on preterism per se, but on how “this generation” is understood in the context of Jewish apocalyptic language.
As shown in Qumran texts (e.g., 1QpHab), 1 Enoch, and Deuteronomy 32:5, the term “generation” often carries both a moral and eschatological connotation, not merely a chronological one.
Moreover, Jesus uses “this generation” repeatedly in Matthew to refer to his contemporaries (cf. Matthew 11:16; 12:39; 23:36).
Your assertion that those appealing to Matthew 24 are “blatantly abusing scripture” is serious and should be made with caution. The actual exegetical problem lies not in the reference to Matthew 24, but in divorcing New Testament eschatological motifs from their thematic unity and intertextual coherence.
While Matthew 24 does not use the word "antichrist," it does address the function and role of antichrist-like deception.
The logic of intertextuality affirms the legitimacy of bringing Matthew 24:34 into eschatological discussions involving deceptive end-time figures.
The interpretive issue lies in how one construes “generation” and the referents of “these things” (ταῦτα πάντα), not in whether Matthew 24 can be responsibly cited in relation to broader eschatological timelines.
Am I making sense here?
J.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Neither
The commentary for the above is at the end of the block of scripture comparison.
Consider the differences between Matthew 24 and Luke 21. They are very different. The only thing I can think of is that Matthew is writing to the Jews, and is writing about Jewish eschatology. Luke is writing to a Gentile who may have had no clue about Jewish eschatology, so wrote about AD 70. The next section is just comparing and contrasting passages in Matthew 24 to Luke 21. Short commentary at the end.
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Matthew 24:
"3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Luke 21:
"7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”
Matthew 24:
"4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Luke 21:
"8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ [d]Therefore do not [e]go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”
10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will [f]answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or [g]resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.
Matthew 24:
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.....
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
"32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
Luke 21:
"20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Notice the differences between Matthew and Luke. In Matthew, it is the abomination of desolation (enemy already in the gates) that spurs the people to run. In Luke, it is when the armies surround the city that spurs the people to run. In Matthew, wars, rumors of wars, natural disasters, nation against nation occurs before the persecution of the church. Contrast that with the persecution of the church Jesus speaks of in Luke, in which Jesus says that the apostles will have the opportunity to testify of Him. That isn't mentioned in Matthew. In Luke, the persecution of the church comes BEFORE the rumors of war, nation against nation, natural disasters, etc. The persecution of the church didn't end until the 4th century. With Matthew the abomination of desolation rings in a period of time Jesus says is a great tribulation. (Simple called the Great Tribulation, since it will be unlike anything in the history of the world.) In Luke, the armies surrounding the city rings in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. No mention of the great tribulation, though it does say that it brings in a period of distress and vengeance upon Israel. Could this be related to the times of Jacobs trouble mentioned in the Old Testament, in which it says it has no match in the history of Israel, not the history of the world? Does that time going on until God is finished dealing with Israel for her betrayal/rejection? Or as Luke puts it, until the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled?
In Matthew, this great tribulation is followed immediately by Jesus second coming. In Luke the people are put to the sword, and if they aren't put to the sword, they are exiled from Israel, dispersed among the nations of the world. There is clearly a long period of time intended, as Jesus says that Jerusalem will be trampled upon by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. You want to know a clear presentation of Jerusalem being trampled by the Gentiles? The Crusades. The UN forcibly splitting Jersualem between the Jews and Palestinians/Arabs. The closest we have gotten to this ending is Trump recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. It appears that the time of the trampling of Jerusalem could be coming to an end. Also, the atmosphere is changing to the point that Israel could possibly gain the right to rebuild the temple. The Palestinians, and the UN are no longer blocking Jews from the temple mount. They no longer go crazy if anyone goes there. The last descendant of Aaron (supposedly) has been on the temple mount, as has performed cermonies in preparation of possibly rebuilding the temple. (I say supposedly because, we are talking about eschatology. Keep an open mind, but that shovel full of salt nearby.)
That is your depection. Christ's return is ALWAYS imminent, precisely because we do not know when. And, if you have been paying attention to what dispensationalists have been saying, there are no prophecies left to be fulfilled before the end times can begin. There are prophecies to be fulfilled DURING the end times, but the curtain is ready to rise at any time. If you have been following the news, they have already reestablished the Levitical priesthood, and apparently even know who the descendant of Aaron alive today is, and they have already performed ceremonies on the temple mount. They have already imported the red heifers necessary to sanctify the people as Aaron did. They have already created all the temple implements, all the priestly vestments/garments, etc. They have been practicing the sacrifices (and have been arrested for it.) There is nothing that says that the temple has to be rebuilt BEFORE the end times begins. (We are in the last days, the end times rolls up the Jesus second coming and begins with the prince of the people in Daniel 9 strengthening a covenant with the many. It ends with his destruction and the salvation of Jerusalem.)
Why did Peter write to explain to the people that God has His own plan, and that He isn't breaking His promise, or being slow with His promise, but is keeping to His will and perfect timing? Why didn't Peter say that when Jesus spoke about an imminent return, He didn't mean it? Instead Peter explained how it isn't God being slow. Peter couldn't say much more because just as Jesus said, no one knows when Jesus will return. Note the parable about the foolish servant, who, not knowing when the master would return, partied, and basically did what he wanted. The master came back by surprise (showing the masters return was always imminent), and caught the servant playing the fool, and punished him. That not knowing when the master was going to return, made the return of the master always imminent. At hand. As such, we are to live as though it could be today, or even tomorrow. That is why scripture keeps pushing to perseverance. No matter what happens, if God tarries some time in the return, do not lose hope, persevere. It will happen.
No, no it does not. That is a blatant lie. (However, there may be fringe elements that do.) Salvation was alwasy by grace through faith. Israel being saved will be like when Paul was saved. Jesus met Paul personally on the road to Damascus. Jesus will personally meet the remnant of Israel at Jersualem, and as Paul recognized Jesus, they will recognize Jesus. Instant regeneration. What follows regeneration? Are you now going to say that regeneration is by works?
Also not true. It is true, however, that they put an insane amount of time into something Jesus said is not for us to know. It is one thing to be watching, as Jesus does give the parable of the fig tree, it is another to be preoccupied with it to the point that you may/do lead people astray. We are living on borrowed time in that every prophecy that needs to be fulfilled for the end times to begin, has been fulfilled. Everything depends on what one believes marks the start of the end times. The start of the last week of the world.
That would be true if dispensationalism did not have a historical tradition going all the way back to the first century. One place I read said the biggest difference between historical premillennialism and dispensational premillennialism, is how much stress is put on the distinction between Israel and the church. Also, the timeframe for Jesus second coming, as taught by the historical premillennialists passed about 1500 years ago.
Why isn't what Jesus said enough for you? What do you have against Him that you can't just trust Him, and as it states in many places to include Revelation, persevere? Why do you have to have an answer in order to persevere? Why do you accuse God of subterfuge? He is delaying and Peter told us why. For the sake of the salvation of the elect. It means that out there somewhere, there may be someone who has yet to repent, and God is waiting. What do you have against that? Why do you not trust God? Jesus Himself said that His second coming would be visible. Everyone will see Him, and all the nations of the world will mourn. Do you think that someone would fail to pass that on if it has happened? And a question I don't recall ever getting an answer to, if Jesus kingdom is now, and scripture is clear that it is on Earth, why is the reflection of the Kingdom more in line with Satan being in charge, and not Jesus? The state of a kingdom is a reflection of its ruler. Is Jesus' Kingdom marked by sin, or is Satan's rule/dominion, permitted by God for a short while, marked by sin?
The reason Jesus could say, in His day, that the Kingdom has come is because Jesus was on Earth, and He, at the time, was the Prince Daniel mentioned. When the disciples asked, in Matthew 24, about signs of His coming, they were asking when He would throw off His "disguise" and would be revealed openly as King and come in to the Kingdom as revealed King. And when He left, the asked "Will you now restore the kingdom to Israel?" They were expecting Jesus to take His position as King and bring about the end then. All they had to go off of was Jewish eschatology, and what they had been taught. They were not ignorant of eschatology.
Now, I do not listen to anyone who puts a date on the return of Christ, and I believe that they should be thoroughly condemned if they do so. I give the same answer as Jesus gave. We cannot know the time, and to question about the time is to question Jesus Himself. The answer He gave was in the parable of the foolish servant. His return can be at any time, hence imminent/at hand. Imminent and at hand are not a measure of time, that one can say, oh, that means 5 minutes from now. They are the words you have when you don't have a time. Can you understand that the possible reason that we are told to endure and persevere is that we may be saying His return is imminent for an incredibly long time?
Oh, and stop hijacking the thread. Talk about how these things can't be future, or support that they are future. Isn't that what the op is about? If you want to deal with an actual time, make your own thread. Start it by saying that there is a thread that speaks of things that must be future. Someone tell me WHEN in the future, when it will happen. Of course, it is quite possible that no one will take you up on it, but that is on excuse to hijack someone else's thread. The discussion should be why the op is stating that these events are future. I think they were in the past and this is why. That is the discussion that should be happening.
MTMattie
Well-known member
So are you a preterist or partial?
He also said... In Matt 24
29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
31And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
It has not happened. He told "this generation" that But immediately after the tribulation of those days
So, as a preterist you likely will argue it did.
IF it did happen please explain why there have not been any found scriptures that were written after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that talk of this.
Specifically "and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds"
It would have had to be so secretive that no one... not even the ancient historians wrote about it.
I need to run now as we just had a tornado warning expire but still is a watch for a couple more hours.
I want to address this generation thing... but not tonight.
TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
Well-known member
to the trenches for the hour is late .
TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
Well-known member
my friend is in the building . Onward in the trenches david . To the LORD be the glory
through it all my friend .
through it all my friend .
