If you're going to reject the atonement, be consistent—REJECT IT ALL.

[synergy]

He definitely knows his theology. I disagree with some of it but he is well learned.

I think you've seen me throughout the forum denying that Christ was the "Perfect Sacrifice" based upon the "keeping of the law". Which I believe is a ridiculous theology. To me, this feeds some of the extreme versions of PSA that we're dealing with in Calvinism. I do believe there is some sense of wrath expressed in the death of Christ and he does a great job at dealing with this. Calvinism doesn't mind such a position because they believe "THEY" are "chosen" and the ultimately consequence are insignificant" to them. While Arminianism does the opposite.

The battle over the theology of the Atonement has taken a dramatic turn in my lifetime. There is a desire to abandon any sense of holiness via "rules/laws" and it begins with the teachings of the Atonement. I try not to let my own desires influence my theology. I simply take myself out of the circumstances and seek the truth. There are many ambiguous areas in the teaching of the Atonement and I believe God designed it that way. We have to make choices and often our bias is revealed in what we easily seek. When it comes to this subject I struggle to maintain a balance between by natural inclinations and what God has done.

I do have an issue with the doctrine of "Federal Headship" which drives much of teaching that comes out of PSA. I also have an issue from this video stating that Adam's sin made Satan Adam's god.

Power over death is at issue here.

Sin is of the devil. We know it predated man. We know that sin entered the world but it was more than just eating an "apple". Adam literally chose Eve over God. God's creation for him over the one that created her.

Christ was made under the dominion of sin. The Dominion of death in the Incarnation. He became sin for us that knew no sin..... This just didn't start at Calvary. It came to Christ through the seed of Eve.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Rom 6:9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

God doesn't as He pleases but His actions are a result of His character. Some appeal to such for a sense of "Holiness" they believe shows God's love for THEM at the expense of their brothers in Adam. Which is wrong. God committed His love for us while we were yet sinners.... Christ died for us.

Ultimately, I believe Christ came to WIN US to Himself. To appeal to us through His own loving actions. It is God tasting death for us that destroyed the work of Satan.

What you believe and trust is what you love. It can never start with endless commandments. I must start with our faith in WHO saved us.

Thank you for your detailed response. I pretty well agree with what you wrote above. You have obviously researched PSA much more than I have. It has no backing in Scripture so I personally will look into it only if it gains critical mass, and it certainly has that from the looks of it.

As for Jay Dyer stating that Adam's sin made Satan Adam's god, I don’t see it any different than what happens to anyone that gives himself over to satanic forces. So it's not just a thought that switches us over, it's a deliberate and consistent rebellion against God that places under satan.

 

[civic]

Thank you for your detailed response. I pretty well agree with what you wrote above. You have obviously researched PSA much more than I have. It has no backing in Scripture so I personally will look into it only if it gains critical mass, and it certainly has that from the looks of it.

As for Jay Dyer stating that Adam's sin made Satan Adam's god, I don’t see it any different than what happens to anyone that gives himself over to satanic forces. So it's not just a thought that switches us over, it's a deliberate and consistent rebellion against God that places under satan.

Amen brother

 

[Wrangler]

Penal Substitution theory blown up sky high by Jay Dyer:

CC: @civic @Wrangler @Fred @praise_yeshua @dizerner

Are you an Eastern Orthodox Christian?

It seemed to me the vid was a reaction of to the work of John Damascus in contrast to John Calvin. Since I'm not a Calvin, the framing of the conversation was unclear to me.

Maybe I need to catch up. Is it Calvins who believe the Father sent the son to hell as punishment?

 

[civic]

Are you an Eastern Orthodox Christian?

It seemed to me the vid was a reaction of to the work of John Damascus in contrast to John Calvin. Since I'm not a Calvin, the framing of the conversation was unclear to me.

Maybe I need to catch up. Is it Calvins who believe the Father sent the son to hell as punishment?

Yes and the Father was angry/wrath towards the Son on the cross and punished Him with His wrath/vengeance and needed to be appeased having His divine anger against the Son soothed. And God the Father abandoned His beloved Son on the cross because God is to holy to look upon sin- another misnomer. PSA is an anti-God view of the atonement and an assault on Gods nature/character. I use to believe that when I was a calvinist for all those years.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes and the Father was angry/wrath towards the Son on the cross and punished Him with His wrath/vengeance and needed to be appeased having His divine anger against the Son soothed. And God the Father abandoned His beloved Son on the cross because God is to holy to look upon sin- another misnomer. PSA is an anti-God view of the atonement and an assault on Gods nature/character. I use to believe that when I was a calvinist for all those years.

I get it now! You are a recovering addict/Calvinist. This explains the axe you grind.

I have heard this notion of God's wrath/vengeance needing to be appeased, have His divine anger against the Son soothed. It does amaze me how people suppose this could be a manifestation of an all-loving God.

In my view, this touches on end times, a topic I tend to avoid. So, I'll step out now.

 

[Diserner]

I have heard this notion of God's wrath/vengeance needing to be appeased, have His divine anger against the Son soothed. It does amaze me how people suppose this could be a manifestation of an all-loving God.

Some people are amazed hell is a "manifestation of an all-loving God."

Every argument you can throw against PSA applies to hell itself.

 

[Diserner]

Maybe I need to catch up. Is it Calvins who believe the Father sent the son to hell as punishment?

Anselm is commonly held to be the first major proponent of PSA.

Although how you interpret the ECF quotes—since people can bend their words either way—can be an arbitrary matter.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I get it now! You are a recovering addict/Calvinist. This explains the axe you grind.

I have heard this notion of God's wrath/vengeance needing to be appeased, have His divine anger against the Son soothed. It does amaze me how people suppose this could be a manifestation of an all-loving God.

In my view, this touches on end times, a topic I tend to avoid. So, I'll step out now.

Like you don't have a few "axes" yourself. It is either right or wrong. Who cares about axes.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Anselm is commonly held to be the first major proponent of PSA.

Although how you interpret the ECF quotes—since people can bend their words either way—can be an arbitrary matter.

Nonsense. There is well over 200 years separating the apostles from various "councils" that sought to establish "Orthodoxy". The facts are clear. We don't know what happened during that time. We do know that Christianity spread and there were very large differences in what "Christians" taught. Among them, the Greek Orthodox church has one of the most detailed histories. I'm not Greek Orthodox but I have to recognize the Truth no matter what it might be.

You're late even appealing to Augustine. Which is one of the reasons I tend to stay out of "timing" arguments.

Apostasy set in after the death of the apostles. Grievous wolves came in not "sparing the flock".

Act 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Act 20:30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish every one with tears.

And No. I'm not preterist. It is just the truth. There is a reason that we have so little information from the time of the apostles to roughly 300 AD. The apostles died and wolves took over the flock.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Some people are amazed hell is a "manifestation of an all-loving God."

Every argument you can throw against PSA applies to hell itself.

Have I denied hell?

I tell you what I do know, some that hold the PSA position seem to look forward to God judging the "wicked"......

They just don't understand that they should be among them. I don't believe there are going to be many people at the Judgement rejoicing at the death of the wicked. I bet most people are going to be concerned about themselves.

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

[Brakelite]

To my mind, and I'm no decorated theologian, but of PSA was not a thing, then Adam and Eve would have died the day they sinned, without a resurrection. The fall would have been permanent... And we would not exist.

 

[synergy]

To my mind, and I'm no decorated theologian, but of PSA was not a thing, then Adam and Eve would have died the day they sinned, without a resurrection. The fall would have been permanent... And we would not exist.

We are all on the same page as far as understanding the importance of Jesus' Atonement is concerned. Where we differ is that some of us think it was a Penal Substitution Atonement and others think it was an Expiation Atonement. I forwarded my study on that subject in the following link:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/if-youre-going-to-reject-the-atonement-be-consistent%E2%80%94reject-it-all.120/post-10286

 

[Diserner]

There is no hint in the whole context that God was angry at us and punished His Son in our place.

See, this is where I have problems.

Expiation vs. propitiation... just playing with semantics, they are two sides of the same coin.

If at one point God is angry, and then at another point God is not, then his anger is assuaged, by definition, whether you like it or not.

You are double-speaking and holding an internally logically contradictory position to deny propitiation.



Please read these in detail to understand why I think an atonement without punishment and without anger, does not uphold the wages of sin:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/law-wrath-and-grace.264/#post-5357

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-10-most-commonly-referred-to-points-against-psa.115/page-2#post-3377

 

[Diserner]

To my mind, and I'm no decorated theologian, but of PSA was not a thing, then Adam and Eve would have died the day they sinned, without a resurrection. The fall would have been permanent... And we would not exist.

It really is that simple, isn't it.

 

[Diserner]

We are all on the same page as far as understanding the importance of Jesus' Atonement is concerned.

You claim sin goes away without a punishment for it.

That is not "on the same page"—that is not even "in the same universe."

 

[civic]

You claim sin goes away without a punishment for it.

That is not "on the same page"—that is not even "in the same universe."

PSA is a different God from all other theories and has pagan , Greek philosophy, gnostic origins. Appeasing the angry gods with the sacrifice of children. That’s not my God or Savior and certainly not the God of the Bible.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Diserner]

PSA is a different God from all other theories and has pagan , Greek philosophy, gnostic origins. Appeasing the angry gods with the sacrifice of children. That’s not my God or Savior and certainly not the God of the Bible.

hope this helps !!!

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/putting-to-death-the-pagan-and-gnostic-genetic-fallacy.582/

 

[civic]

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/putting-to-death-the-pagan-and-gnostic-genetic-fallacy.582/

I believed like you for 45 years and I can admit I was wrong just like with tulip. It comes from the same source, the same systematic theology.

 

[praise_yeshua]

To my mind, and I'm no decorated theologian, but of PSA was not a thing, then Adam and Eve would have died the day they sinned, without a resurrection. The fall would have been permanent... And we would not exist.

You don't have to be a "decorated Theologian". No. This isn't simple. It is complicated because God PLANNED it. Let that sink in for a moment. God PLANNED the Atonement before man ever sinned. The Atonement was not an reactionary event. If PSA were true, then you would have a reactionary event. In fact, that is exactly what most theologians do. They teach a reactionary Atonement. Even Calvinists do. Man broke God's law.... HE MUST BE PUNISHED..... because God is HOLY......

Well. God has certainly tolerated the sin for a very LONG time. In fact, there really is no telling how long it has been since angels sinned and fell. Have you ever stopped to consider that we live in God's prison our entire lives?

I have news for you. The sin of man doesn't scare God. God is longsuffering NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH..... but that all come to repentance.

Doesn't sound like to me that God is an hurry to judge humanity. Even WHEN HE DOES..... It will be solely based upon what man has done with Jesus Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You claim sin goes away without a punishment for it.

That is not "on the same page"—that is not even "in the same universe."

Do you even know sin but by the law? God said not to steal and our carnal minds said.... "We can steal??????" Easy peasy".