If you're going to reject the atonement, be consistent—REJECT IT ALL.

I was a Calvinist for 40 years. This study on PSA led me out of Calvinist a couple of years ago. It’s a thesis paper that I’m still adding to and may become a book at sometime.

Okay. I've read part 1. God is love. Totally agree, and there were some excellent points made in the essay.
I admit that I struggle with the trinity doctrine. Not the trinity itself, for I do believe there are 3 divine persons that comprise the Godhead. Father, Son, and holy Spirit. There are aspects however of the doctrine itself that I struggle with. But that aside, I'm happy to discuss those things elsewhere. I did read a very good perspective as to why a binitarian view of the Godhead is inadequate as an expression of the love of God. 2 beings can love one another. That love is complimentary, and requited. However, a 3rd person added to the equation completes love inasmuch as each individual member is able to step aside and allow the other 2 to love one another fully. This is a demonstration of loving humility and meekness. It is undemanding and expresses complete unselfishness. Unselfish love, where a loving response is left optional and requires a free will response, is like marriage with children. The Father can step aside and allow full love to blossom and be expressed between mother and child without reservation. This cannot be done with 2, and self sacrifice is the ultimate expression of love, demonstrated on Calvary when the Father stepped aside to allow His Son to die for us.
 
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I was a Calvinist for 40 years. This study on PSA led me out of Calvinist a couple of years ago. It’s a thesis paper that I’m still adding to and may become a book at sometime.

I have a question however, maybe a challenge for those who believe as you and I do that God is love. That as you rightly said, there is nothing God does that isn't motivated and sourced from love. So.
How do you (and others here) explain the Christian doctrine of eternal torment in the context of God's love?
 
My "Reactionary" statement revolves around the concept that the Atonement came about because of God's reaction to the sin of man. That man's sin necessitated the Atonement. While that is partially true, it is not all of the "story/narrative".

Adam was peccable. Capable of sin. God placed him in an environment where Adam faced the challenge of choose Himself over His Creator. Satan didn't "sneak" up on Eve to deceive her. God choose not to intervene in man's sin. God well knew what Adam would choose given his environment. It doesn't matter what "side" you're on in this. Calvinisms or Arminian. Both teach the same construct. The flaw in these systems BEGINS with how they construct their theological narrative from the very beginning. I would love to have this conversation but people are so dogmatic about what they've been taught, that this conversation very seldom ever fruitful. Do you remember when Jesus told His disciples that He had many things to tell them but they were not ready to hear them?

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

That is so true. I experienced it in my own life. There things that it took me years to understand because I didn't have the proper foundation in my theology to support them. That is what @civic is witnessing in his life. We all face this. Honest.... moral men CHANGE. Often times that change takes many many years.

The question must be asked as to why God took this approach in His creation. I can tell you that I have contemplated this for a very long time. I've debated it extensively but I have never said much about this among many of you.

God chose His plan because it is the only way to properly create a freewill creature that would willing choose Him. It is the narrative of the willing servant found in the law of Moses. If you remove this aspect of teaching of the Atonement, our theology crumbles and becomes little more than a self serving narrative devised to control other men.

Exo 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
Exo 21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
Exo 21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
Exo 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

This is small part of what I've come to call "The God experience". God has tailored our lives after His own experience.
Thank you for your openness. It is precisely where I am. Giving Adam the choice, (God and losing Eve, or Eve and dying) was indeed the only way a truly loving response could be encouraged. A loving response based on God's character, than a response based on fear and selfish desire to live forever, or reward, or heaven. There is another paradigm to this that must be considered.
The fall of Lucifer/Satan in heaven before creation, and the reason why God did not destroy him at the time of rebellion. Some may ask, why not save a third of the angels and humanity the trouble? Seems angels have free will also. But if God had destroyed Lucifer before the trouble started, would that have solved the issue? What issue you may ask. The issue of doubt and slander that began the rebellion. False ideas about God. False ideas about the way He ran things. Those ideas would have been confirmed by instant executive judgement, and the angels would have served God from fear, rather than love. Wow they would have said. If God did that to the highest angel, what would He do to me of I stepped out of line?
Hence Lucifer, now Satan, was given an opportunity to prove his methods right, or contrariwise, prove to the universe that God's way is right. His way of love, rather than self interest. That controversy is still raging. One day, n and the sooner the better, everyone will come to a right conclusion, and God's ways will be justified. Sadly, for most it will be too late.
 
I have a question however, maybe a challenge for those who believe as you and I do that God is love. That as you rightly said, there is nothing God does that isn't motivated and sourced from love. So.
How do you (and others here) explain the Christian doctrine of eternal torment in the context of God's love?
God being love has provided a way to escape the curse of sin, death and hell thought His provision made in the Atonement of Christ, the gospel. If one believes in Him He is not condemned. But if one rejects Gods love provided through Christ then He will be judged for his sin, condemned and not forgiven. God has provided a way to escape that because He loves everyone and gives them that choice freely to believe and accept His provision or reject it. That is on man , not God. Free will to choose to love in return is Gods way and He does not force or coerce anyone for that would be unloving to make someone love Him in return. Sometimes I think its a matter of perspective and our ways/thinking are not always in line with Gods ways/thinking even for believers.

One thing I do know is that He is both loving and just.
 
Whether that means penal, I have no clue.

Penal means having to do with punishment, like the penal code.

Not to be embarrassingly mistaken—as happened one time—for penile, lol.


Those who wish to divorce punishment from sin desire a "feel-good" version of God that does not requite evil nor uphold any holy law.
 
Penal means having to do with punishment, like the penal code.

Not to be embarrassingly mistaken—as happened one time—for penile, lol.


Those who wish to divorce punishment from sin desire a "feel-good" version of God that does not requite evil nor uphold any holy law.
Thank you for the explanation. I will have to consider this for a while. Whether the death pronounced as the wages of sin is an active 'punishment', or an inevitable consequence, or both.
KJV Matthew 25:45-46
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The question it seems we cannot agree on, is what precisely is that punishment? Is it an ongoing punishing, wherein the justice of God and His wrath is never assuaged as in eternal torment...
...or is it found in Catholicism whereby one can either earn his own way into heaven by way of the merits of others, indulgences, or fasting and prayers of holy saints and money into the poor box...
...or perhaps found in universalism whereby everyone is ultimately saved...
... Or is it as the text above suggests, Matthew 25:44,45, the complete absence of life in direct contradistinction to eternal life... Eternal death?
That issue and debate hinges on one very important question.
Is there such a thing as an immortal sinner?
To assist in answering that question, (being essentially the difference between paganism and true religion), I think it would do is well in reconsidering God's intentions here...
KJV Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
 
Is there such a thing as an immortal sinner?

I'm familiar with annihilationism.

The fire that is never quenched and the worm that never dies are directly there to indicate their source is active.

As if God badly wanted to even remove all shred of our doubts.
 
I'm familiar with annihilationism.

The fire that is never quenched and the worm that never dies are directly there to indicate their source is active.

As if God badly wanted to even remove all shred of our doubts.
So are sinners immortal? For the redeemer, their immortality is a gift granted then at the second coming. I've never found any text intimating immortality being granted sinners.
 
Thank you for the explanation. I will have to consider this for a while. Whether the death pronounced as the wages of sin is an active 'punishment', or an inevitable consequence, or both.
KJV Matthew 25:45-46
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The question it seems we cannot agree on, is what precisely is that punishment? Is it an ongoing punishing, wherein the justice of God and His wrath is never assuaged as in eternal torment...
...or is it found in Catholicism whereby one can either earn his own way into heaven by way of the merits of others, indulgences, or fasting and prayers of holy saints and money into the poor box...
...or perhaps found in universalism whereby everyone is ultimately saved...
... Or is it as the text above suggests, Matthew 25:44,45, the complete absence of life in direct contradistinction to eternal life... Eternal death?
That issue and debate hinges on one very important question.
Is there such a thing as an immortal sinner?
To assist in answering that question, (being essentially the difference between paganism and true religion), I think it would do is well in reconsidering God's intentions here...
KJV Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The real questions that need to be answered are these two fundamental ones. What you hear from many is "christianese", not found in the Bible. There are numerous misnomers taught and never questioned by people in the church. They are not good Bereans.

A)How did Jesus view His own death, atonement for sin ?
B)Who does the Bible say was responsible for His death ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

Who put Jesus to death, who was responsible ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take


conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form there was any wrath from His Father. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- expiation. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son that needed to be appeased (propitiation). That concept came from paganism and their false gods. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men and not from the Father to the Son. That is 100% unbiblical and should be rejected.

hope this helps !!!
 
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So are sinners immortal? For the redeemer, their immortality is a gift granted then at the second coming. I've never found any text intimating immortality being granted sinners.

Existence in not living.

There is your mistake.

I have been to a low place—where it was close to there being no net or positive benefit for existing.

It's more than "a bad day" or a "bout of depression."

Imagine the removal of all good things, and no ability to enjoy literally any single thing but only experience pain.

That is not "living" by any stretch of the imagination—

And so we see existence and life are two different things.
 
Thank you for the explanation. I will have to consider this for a while. Whether the death pronounced as the wages of sin is an active 'punishment', or an inevitable consequence, or both.
KJV Matthew 25:45-46
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Notice in the lexicons the only reference to Christ and wrath is when He dishes out wrath and Scripture never references Him as the recipient of wrath. That is one of those misnomers in "christianese" lingo that is completely and utterly false.

Strong's Concordance
orgé: impulse, wrath
Original Word: ὀργή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: orgé
Phonetic Spelling: (or-gay')
Definition: impulse, wrath
Usage: anger, wrath, punishment, vengeance,indignation
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3709: ὀργή

ὀργή, ὀργῆς, ἡ (from ὀργάω to teem, denoting an internal motion, especially that of plants and fruits swelling with juice (Curtius, § 152); cf. Latinturgerealicui forirascialicui in Plautus Cas. 2, 5, 17; Most. 3, 2, 10; cf. German arg, Aerger), in Greek writings from Hesiod down "the natural disposition, temper, character; movement or agitation of soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion," but especially (and chiefly in Attic) anger. In Biblical Greek anger, wrath, indignation (on the distinction between it and θυμός, see θυμός, 1): Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8; James 1:19f; μετ' ὀργῆς, indignant (A. V. with anger), Mark 3:5; χωρίς ὀργῆς, 1 Timothy 2:8; anger exhibited in punishing, hence, used for the punishment itself (Demosthenes or. in middle § 43): of the punishments inflicted by magistrates, Romans 13:4; διά τήν ὀργήν, i. e. because disobedience is visited with punishment, Romans 13:5. The ὀργή attributed to God in the N. T. is that in God which stands opposed to man's disobedience, obduracy (especially in resisting the gospel) and sin, and manifests itself in punishing the same: John 3:36; Romans 1:18; Romans 4:15; Romans 9:22a; Hebrews 3:11; Hebrews 4:3; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:15; absolutely, ἡ ὀργή, Romans 12:19 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 594 (553)); σκεύη ὀργῆς, vessels into which wrath will be poured (at the last day), explained by the addition κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀπώλειαν, Romans 9:22b; ἡ μελλουσα ὀργή, which at the last day will be exhibited in penalties, Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7 (others understand in these two passages the (national) judgments immediately impending to be referred to — at least primarily); also ἡ ὀργή ἡ ἐρχομένη, 1 Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέρα ὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 2 a.), Romans 2:5; and ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλη τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ (Revelation 6:17; see ἡμέρα, 3 at the end); ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐπί τινα, the wrath of God cometh upon one in the infliction of penalty (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 2 a.), Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6 (T Tr WH omit; L brackets ἐπί etc.); ἔφθασε (ἔφθακεν L text WH marginal reading) ἐπ' αὐτούς ἡ ὀργή, 1 Thessalonians 2:16; so ἡ ὀργή passes over into the notion of retribution and punishment, Luke 21:23; Rom. (Romans 2:8); ; Revelation 11:18; τέκνα ὀργῆς, men exposed to divine punishment, Ephesians 2:3; εἰς ὀργήν, unto wrath, i. e. to undergo punishment in misery, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge, Revelation 6:16. (The Sept. for עֶבְרָה, wrath, outburst of anger, זַעַם, חֵמָה, חָרון, קֶצֶף, etc.; but chiefly for אַף.) Cf. Ferd. Weber, Vom Zorne Gottes. Erlang. 1862; Ritschl, Die christl. Lehre v. d. Rechtfertigung u. Versöhnung, ii., p. 118ff.
 
Here are some gospel truths...

KJV Romans 5:8
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ has already died the second death for every man, thus elected every man to be saved, thus in that sense, has saved the world.
KJV 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again...
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

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KJV Romans 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
By His uplifted cross and ongoing priestly ministry, Christ is drawing all men to repentance. His gracious love is so strong and persistent, that the sinner must resist it in order to be lost.

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KJV Mark 9:23
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

It is easy to be saved and hard to be lost if one understands and believes how good the good news actually is. The only difficult thing is learning how to believe the gospel. God does the loving and the giving, our part is to do the believing.
KJV Matthew 11:30
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
KJV Acts 9:5
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

The love of Christ "constraineth us"...it is active...a believer in the gospel cannot continue to live for self. Christ's love for the individual is far greater than a parent's love for a child. To kick against the pricks/goads is to resist the holy Spirit's conviction of good news. Light is greater than darkness.
Grace is greater than sin.
The holy Spirit is greater than the flesh.
God is leading every person to repentance, but many are refusing to be led.
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KJV Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Christ is a good Shepherd Who is seeking His lost sheep though we have not sought Him. A misunderstanding of the character of God causes is to think He is trying to hide from us. There is no parable of a lost sheep having to seek and find its shepherd.
If anyone is saved at last, it will be at God's initiative. If any will be lost at last, it will be their own initiative. Our salvation does not depend on our maintaining a relationship with God... It depends on our believing that God stands at the door and is knocking, seeking to maintain that relationship with us...unless we break it off. God had torn down the veil between God and man. It is man that puts it back up. The Master Workman will continue His work. As we have confidence in Him, we will let Him carry on His work till the end.

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KJV Romans 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

His humanity only veiled His divine nature by which He was inseparably connected to the Father, and which was more than able to resist the weaknesses of the flesh. There was in His whole life a struggle. The flesh, moved upon by the enemy of righteousness, would tend to sin, yet His divine nature never for a moment harboured an evil desire, not did His divine power for a moment waver.
But when we consider that He sank His divine nature into our human nature for all eternity, that is a sacrifice. That is the love of God. And no heart can reason against it. Whether the man believes it or not, there is a subduing power in it, and the heart must stand in reverent silence before that awful truth. Shaun, when I consider it, that the sacrifice of the Son is an eternal sacrifice, "then I shall go softly before the Lord all my days".
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by 4000 years of sin. Like every child of Adam, He accepted the results of the great law of heredity. What those results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us an example of a sinless life.
KJV Hebrews 2:16-18
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

To be continued...
 
KJV 2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His nature might overcome. Made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), He lived a sinless life. Now by His divinity He lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by His humanity He reaches us. He bids us by faith in Him attain to the glory of the character of God. Therefore are we to be perfect, even as our "Father which is in heaven is perfect." DOA.

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KJV Genesis 15:6
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

The new covenant is God's one way promise to write His law in our hearts, and to give us everlasting salvation as a free gift in Christ. The old covenant is the vain promise of the people to obey, and gives birth to bondage. Genesis 15:6; Galatians 4:24; Exodus 19:8.
also... Genesis 12:1-3; 13:14-17; 15:4,5; 15:9-17.
Romans 4:1, 11-13, 16-18.
Galatians 3:23-26
God never asks us to make promises to Him. He asks us to believe His promises to us. God promises everything we need, and even more than we can ask or think. He has given us Himself. And that is everything.
God's precepts and commandments are promises. They must necessarily be as such, because He knows we have no power. All that God requires is what He gives. When He says 'thou shalt not', we may take it as His assurance that if we buy believe Him and recognise His authority in our lives, He will preserve us from that sin against which He warns us.

It is not you who are to do that which the Lord pleases, but "it shall accomplish that which I please". You are not to hear or read the word of God and say, "I must do that". You are to open the heart to that word that it may accomplish the will of God in you. The word of God itself is to do it, and you are to let it.
KJV Colossians 3:16
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;
The word of God has creative power.
KJV 1 John 2:5
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

KJV Romans 3:24-26
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The very best efforts of sinful man cannot produce righteousness. The only way is as a gift.
KJV Romans 5:17
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

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KJV Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

KJV Romans 12:1-3
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

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I have a few more to add. But this will suffice for the time being. I think there is much there to contemplate.
 
Did the Father punish the Son, pour out His divine anger/wrath upon Him ?

The biblical answer is a resounding NO. Jesus and the Apostles never taught such heresy. This false teaching came from the catholic priests who left the mother catholic church- Luther, Calvin then systematized by Hodges.

conclusion: know your church history.

hope this helps !!!
 
Did the Father punish the Son, pour out His divine anger/wrath upon Him ?
There are various Penal Atonement theorists-and Craig do not advocate that God "poured out His wrath on the Son"-your problem, not mine brother. Indicative you did not listen to the clips

With regard to propitiation, the protracted debate over the
linguistic meaning of hilastērion in Rom 3.25, “whom God put
forward as a hilastērion in his blood,”
6 has unfortunately diverted
attention from the conceptual necessity of propitiation in Paul’s
thinking. Whatever word Paul might have used here – had he
written, for example, peri hamartias, as in Rom 8.3, instead of
hilastērion – the context would still require that Christ’s death
provide the solution to the problem described in chapters 1–3.

Paul’s crowning statement concerning Christ’s atoning death
(Rom 3.21–26) comes against the backdrop of his exposition of
God’s wrath upon and condemnation of mankind for its sin.

Something in Paul’s ensuing exposition of Christ’s death must
solve this problem, averting God’s wrath and rescuing us from the
death sentence hanging over us.


The solution is found in Christ,
“whom God put forward as a hilastērion in his blood” (3.25).

6 For an overview of the debate, see Bailey (forthcoming). It is not disputed that
we find quite different meanings of hilastērion in the LXX and in extra-biblical
Greek literature, including the literature of Hellenistic Judaism. What is disputed is which is the relevant meaning of the word as used by Paul on this one
occasion. The predominant meaning in extra-biblical literature is “propitiation”
or “propitiatory offering.” Especially noteworthy are the deaths of the
Maccabean martyrs, which allayed God’s wrath upon Israel (2 Macc 7.38),
and thus served as “a propitiatory offering” (4 Macc 17.22 codex S; cf. Sibylline
Oracles 3.625–28, where God is propitiated by the sacrifice of hundreds of bulls
and lambs). This case belies any claims that hilastēria had to be concrete,
inanimate objects. The LXX, on the other hand, uses hilastērion to refer to the
kapporet or lid of the ark of the covenant, where the blood of the Yom Kippur
sacrifice was splashed, or, more widely, to altar faces where sacrificial blood was
smeared (Ezek 43.14, 17, 20; Amos 9.1). On this interpretation Christ is the locus
of atonement for sin.
Even if we take hilastērion to carry here its LXX meaning as
opposed to its extra-biblical meaning, Paul is obviously using the
expression metaphorically – Christ is not literally a piece of Temple
furniture!
Taken metaphorically rather than literally, however, the
expression could convey a rich variety of connotations associated
with sacrifice and atonement, so that the sort of dichotomistic
reading forced by literal meanings becomes inappropriate. Paul
was a Hellenistic Jew, whose writings bear the imprint of
Hellenistic Jewish thought (e.g., the natural theology of Rom 1 or
the Logos doctrine behind Rom 11.36), and he might have
expected his Roman readers to understand hilastērion in the customary sense. At the same time, by borrowing an image from
the Day of Atonement rituals, Paul also conveys to his hearers the
OT notion of expiation by blood sacrifice. Thomas Heicke comments that already in the OT, “by means of abstraction, the ritual
itself turns into a metaphor,” thus building “the basis and starting
point for multiple transformations and further abstractions as well
as metaphorical charging in Judaism ... and Christianity (Rom
3:25: Christ as hilasterion – expiation or sacrifice of atonement,
etc.)” (Heicke 2016).

Christ’s death is thus both expiatory and propitiatory: “Since,
therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be
saved by him from the wrath of God” (5.9).

Given the manifold
effects of Christ’s blood, hilastērion is doubtlessly multivalent in
Paul’s usage, comprising both expiation and propitiation, so that
a vague translation, for example, “an atoning sacrifice,” is about
the best one can give (cf. Heb 2.17; 1 Jn 2.2; 4.10).

 
I've seen all the videos and read all the arguments. Nothing new under the sun here with PSA. The fact remains wrath is used dozens of times in the NT and not once is Christ the recipient of wrath. In fact its the opposite- He is the One who invokes Gods wrath upon the wicked.

PSA was developed by a mid-evil mindset, from catholic priests who left the mother church who killed and persecuted those who opposed their false theologies. They killed /persecuted their enemies and did not love them as Christ commanded all believers to do. So you can have all of their false unloving doctrines like PSA and TULIP. They are an assault on the good & loving character of God.

hope this helps !!!
 
I've seen all the videos and read all the arguments. Nothing new under the sun here with PSA. The fact remains wrath is used dozens of times in the NT and not once is Christ the recipient of wrath.
Not what William Craig is propagating-"That Jesus is the RECIPIENT of God's wrath"
So if you have it all nicely tucked since nothing is "anything new to you"-good for you.
I marvel every day that there is always something NEW in the Scriptures.

Mat 13:52 And he said to them, On account of this every scribe discipled into the kingdom of the heavens is likened to a man, a master of a house, who casts out from his treasury new and old.

Every scribe - Minister of Christ: who is instructed - taught of God; in the kingdom of heaven - in the mysteries of the Gospel of Christ: out of his treasury - his granary or store-house; things new and old - a Jewish phrase for great plenty.

A small degree of knowledge is not sufficient for a preacher of the Gospel. The sacred writings should be his treasure, and he should properly understand them.

His knowledge does not consist in being furnished with a great variety of human learning, (though of this he should acquire as much as he can); but his knowledge consists in being well instructed in the things concerning the kingdom of heaven, and the art of conducting men thither.

Again, it is not enough for a man to have these advantages in possession: he must bring them forth, and distribute them abroad.

A good pastor will not, like a miser, keep these things to himself to please his fancy; nor, like a merchant, traffic with them, to enrich himself; but, like a bountiful father or householder, distribute them with a liberal through judicious hand, for the comfort and support of the whole heavenly family.

A preacher whose mind is well stored with Divine truths, and who has a sound judgment, will suit his discourses to the circumstances and states of his hearers. He who preaches the same sermon to every congregation, gives the fullest proof that, however well he may speak, he is not a scribe who is instructed in the kingdom of heaven. Some have thought that old and new things here, which imply the produce of the past and the produce of the present year, may also refer to the old and new covenants - a proper knowledge of the Old Testament Scriptures, and of the doctrines of Christ as contained in the New. No man can properly understand the Old Testament but through the medium of the New, nor can the New be so forcibly or successfully applied to the conscience of a sinner as through the medium of the Old. The law is still a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ - by it is the knowledge of sin, and, without it, there can be no conviction - where it ends, the Gospel begins, as by the Gospel alone is salvation from sin. See the whole of the comment on the Pentateuch.

Shalom
 
We are talking about the Atonement not the above side tracking and avoiding the PSA heresy which is taught nowhere by Jesus who is the way, the truth and the life. As God the Son He of all people in the bible should know the meaning and intent of His own atonement for sin. He said nothing that resembles wrath/anger from the Father. In fact He said just the opposite that it was done out of LOVE by the Father/Son working together to Redeem man, forgive man, save man, ransom man, sacrifice for man, cover mans sin, substitute for man and last but not least die for mans sins. Thats what the atonement according to Jesus taught.

Now thats a title for a book. We had the gospel according to Jesus so how about the Atonement according to Jesus which is at the very heart of the gospel. I can see a series followed by the Atonement according to Paul followed by the Atonement according to the Apostles. :)

hope this helps !!!
 
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