If you're going to reject the atonement, be consistent—REJECT IT ALL.

dizerner said:
See, this is where I have problems.

Expiation vs. propitiation... just playing with semantics, they are two sides of the same coin.

If at one point God is angry, and then at another point God is not, then his anger is assuaged, by definition, whether you like it or not.

You are double-speaking and holding an internally logically contradictory position to deny propitiation.



Please read these in detail to understand why I think an atonement without punishment and without anger, does not uphold the wages of sin:


Click to expand...

If God's anger is assuaged..... then why are we yet still judged?

There sorer punishment waiting for those who have trodden under foot Jesus Christ.
 
praise_yeshua said:
You don't have to be a "decorated Theologian". No. This isn't simple. It is complicated because God PLANNED it. Let that sink in for a moment. God PLANNED the Atonement before man ever sinned. The Atonement was not an reactionary event. If PSA were true, then you would have a reactionary event. In fact, that is exactly what most theologians do. They teach a reactionary Atonement. Even Calvinists do. Man broke God's law.... HE MUST BE PUNISHED..... because God is HOLY......

Well. God has certainly tolerated the sin for a very LONG time. In fact, there really is no telling how long it has been since angels sinned and fell. Have you ever stopped to consider that we live in God's prison our entire lives?

I have news for you. The sin of man doesn't scare God. God is longsuffering NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH..... but that all come to repentance.

Doesn't sound like to me that God is an hurry to judge humanity. Even WHEN HE DOES..... It will be solely based upon what man has done with Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Amen my friend well said !
 
dizerner said:
See, this is where I have problems.

Expiation vs. propitiation... just playing with semantics, they are two sides of the same coin.

If at one point God is angry, and then at another point God is not, then his anger is assuaged, by definition, whether you like it or not.

You are double-speaking and holding an internally logically contradictory position to deny propitiation.



Please read these in detail to understand why I think an atonement without punishment and without anger, does not uphold the wages of sin:


Click to expand...
Listen. If you want to win me over you must do it through the Bible. It doesn't matter what you say or I say or even what Uncle Shmedrick says. It's what the Bible says. So either give me verses that clearly show Jesus is our Propitiation or you're just wasting your time.
 
synergy said:
Listen. If you want to win me over you must do it through the Bible. It doesn't matter what you say or I say or even what Uncle Shmedrick says. It's what the Bible says. So either give me verses that clearly show Jesus is our Propitiation or you're just wasting your time.
Click to expand...
Well I can tell you something you already know, there are none so its an impossible task. :)
 
dizerner said:
Yes, this line of argumentation has been tried many times.

The point rather is "we esteemed him stricken for his own sins, but it turns out it was ours!"

I recommend Dr. Michael Brown on this as he has covered every anti-missionary argument concerning Isa. 53.


I really have a recommendation no humble man would resent—pray that prayer over Isaiah 53 I have posted.

I literally did pray it.

Look, I understand coming into a chapter intuitively feeling like the most plain meaning can't be right—looking for loopholes on purpose. It's how I approached Romans 9. But I was always, always honest enough to admit Romans 9 sounds Calvinistic, because it does, at least the first half. And I found a lot of anti-Calvinists weren't even honest enough to admit that, and it shows bias and prejudice.

There is a blindness that is natural, and there is a blindness that is intentional—and the difference between them is the willingness to humble one's self and be open to hear what you don't want to hear. I was willing for Calvinism to be true. I gave it an honest chance. I tackled it head on, and I asked God again and again "is Calvinism true?" rather than just be dismissive over what clearly sounds that way.

You will come out in the light if you take this approach.

Peace.
Click to expand...
What is a person to do when he believed that Jesus suffered the wrath of God for years and in a moment the Lord presented a glimpse of truth that it wasn’t about wrath but a rescue operation? And then to shake the person up, someone posted a thread two days later that challenged PSA. The person argued against the poster and then it came to mind what the Lord revealed, so the person stopped and listened to what was being presented and then the whole PSA belief crumbled as the Lord began opening his mind to the truth.

Of course, I am the person and civic is the poster, and the thread was on carm. The Lord prepped me for what was coming two days before the thread, so that I would repent and understand the truth.

God Bless
 
Joe said:
What is a person to do when he believed that Jesus suffered the wrath of God for years and in a moment the Lord presented a glimpse of truth that it wasn’t about wrath but a rescue operation? And then to shake the person up, someone posted a thread two days later that challenged PSA. The person argued against the poster and then it came to mind what the Lord revealed, so the person stopped and listened to what was being presented and then the whole PSA belief crumbled as the Lord began opening his mind to the truth.

Of course, I am the person and civic is the poster, and the thread was on carm. The Lord prepped me for what was coming two days before the thread, so that I would repent and understand the truth.

God Bless
Click to expand...
The @Administrator here had a similar story how that thread was used and some left PSA and a few calvinism too. And I can praise God for allowing that thread to go on for as long as it did before they locked it down. As you might remember the hostility that came upon those who opposed PSA in that thread. I'm 100% sure it was closed down because of how God used it to turn people away from calvinism and it was/is a calvinist site.

And as a side note brother I have learned allot from you on this topic over the past year. You are an excellent student of Gods word. Reading your posts brings genuine joy to my heart my friend. To see where we have come from to where we are now is nothing short of miraculous.
 
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I've done all I can do.

It's between the individual and the Holy Spirit at this point, and I'm comfortable with that.

I know the sincerity and effort I put into it, and I know I speak with absolute conviction.

All I can say is, see you at the Judgment Seat, at some point.
 
dizerner said:
I've done all I can do.

It's between the individual and the Holy Spirit at this point, and I'm comfortable with that.

I know the sincerity and effort I put into it, and I know I speak with absolute conviction.

All I can say is, see you at the Judgment Seat, at some point.
Click to expand...
Why not see you in heaven at some point ?

Is there a reason you said judgement seat and not heaven ?
 
civic said:
The @Administrator here had a similar story how that thread was used and some left PSA and a few calvinism too. And I can praise God for allowing that thread to go on for as long as it did before they locked it down. As you might remember the hostility that came upon those who opposed PSA in that thread. I'm 100% sure it was closed down because of how God used it to turn people away from calvinism and it was/is a calvinist site.

And as a side note brother I have learned allot from you on this topic over the past year. You are an excellent student of Gods word. Reading your posts brings genuine joy to my heart my friend. To see where we have come from to where we are now is nothing short of miraculous.
Click to expand...
My views have changed over the years. I still believe there are extremists in PSA that overshadow the more reasonable aspects of the teaching. The "P" is most problematic and most everyone can agree that Christ died some form of a substitutionary death. I can accept such a position more readily than someone who would ignore our guilt completely. I think this is the danger @dizerner sees. Not trying to speak for him.
 
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praise_yeshua said:
My views have changed over the years. I still believe there are extremists in PSA that overshadow the mode reasonable aspects of the teaching. The "P" is most problematic and most everyone can agree that Christ died some form of a substitutionary death. I can accept such a position more readily than someone who would ignore our guilt completely. I think this is the danger @dizerner sees. Not trying to speak for him.
Click to expand...
Yes I'm all onboard without the calvinist view of penal. @armylngst who is a calvinst and I have had some good discussions where we are almost on the same page on the penal aspect.
 
civic said:
The @Administrator here had a similar story how that thread was used and some left PSA and a few calvinism too. And I can praise God for allowing that thread to go on for as long as it did before they locked it down. As you might remember the hostility that came upon those who opposed PSA in that thread. I'm 100% sure it was closed down because of how God used it to turn people away from calvinism and it was/is a calvinist site.

And as a side note brother I have learned allot from you on this topic over the past year. You are an excellent student of Gods word. Reading your posts brings genuine joy to my heart my friend. To see where we have come from to where we are now is nothing short of miraculous.
Click to expand...
Words cannot express the joy that I have from our Lord setting me free from two false doctrines. If he had not given me a glimpse of the truth, as I was walking from one room to another in my house. I imagine I would still be believing something so unglorious and uncharacteristic of our God and Savior as PSA and Calvinism.

Not only did he begin teaching me about his death and resurrection, and all the glorious things that come from it, he also removed the remaining vestiges of Calvinism from my heart that I struggled with for years.

I’m so glad he set me free and that he used my fellow brothers in Christ to bring about his good and perfect will.

I don’t disagree with what you said about your thread being closed out. And thank you for the kind words. You and Tom, both were used greatly by the Lord to open the minds of so many people and I’m very thankful for it.

God Bless
 
Joe said:
Words cannot express the joy that I have from our Lord setting me free from two false doctrines. If he had not given me a glimpse of the truth, as I was walking from one room to another in my house. I imagine I would still be believing something so unglorious and uncharacteristic of our God and Savior as PSA and Calvinism.

Not only did he begin teaching me about his death and resurrection, and all the glorious things that come from it, he also removed the remaining vestiges of Calvinism from my heart that I struggled with for years.

I’m so glad he set me free and that he used my fellow brothers in Christ to bring about his good and perfect will.

I don’t disagree with what you said about your thread being closed out. And thank you for the kind words. You and Tom, both were used greatly by the Lord to open the minds of so many people and I’m very thankful for it.

God Bless
Click to expand...
I love hearing God is still in the business of changing the hearts and minds of believers.
 
Joe said:
Words cannot express the joy that I have from our Lord setting me free from two false doctrines. If he had not given me a glimpse of the truth, as I was walking from one room to another in my house. I imagine I would still be believing something so unglorious and uncharacteristic of our God and Savior as PSA and Calvinism.

Not only did he begin teaching me about his death and resurrection, and all the glorious things that come from it, he also removed the remaining vestiges of Calvinism from my heart that I struggled with for years.

I’m so glad he set me free and that he used my fellow brothers in Christ to bring about his good and perfect will.

I don’t disagree with what you said about your thread being closed out. And thank you for the kind words. You and Tom, both were used greatly by the Lord to open the minds of so many people and I’m very thankful for it.

God Bless
Click to expand...
Same here
 
I said previously that I'm no theologian. So it ought not come as a surprise for you to learn that I have no idea what is meant by penal substitution Atonement.
The way I see Calvary, is that Christ died and of I by faith accept His sacrifice on my behalf, I am included in His death, and thus need not fear the second death that comes upon the unrepentant. That to me is the gospel. That to me is substitutionary Atonement, and had been demonstrated since the garden of Eden in type through the sacrificial offering. Whether that means penal, I have no clue.
 
praise_yeshua said:
They teach a reactionary Atonement. Even Calvinists do. Man broke God's law.... HE MUST BE PUNISHED..... because God is HOLY......
Click to expand...
First off, I'm no Calvinist. Second, the wages of sin is death. Such an inevitable result of distancing oneself from the life giving power of God through rebellion and sin, is not a reactionary action on God's part, but was given in warning well before sin made an entrance into man's existence. But God gave man the ability to choose, and He thus knew the possibility that man may choose to disobey. Thus He made a way for man's redemption through His Son.
The Son would take on human flesh, and die in His place. Man would still need to die the sleep of death, but of he met the conditions of salvation, He would be resurrected and not be destroyed by the second death from which there would be no resurrection. Christ therefore died the second death...a death which did not incorporate any hope of a resurrection, a death that literally separated Him from His Father. A substitution.
 
Brakelite said:
First off, I'm no Calvinist. Second, the wages of sin is death. Such an inevitable result of distancing oneself from the life giving power of God through rebellion and sin, is not a reactionary action on God's part, but was given in warning well before sin made an entrance into man's existence. But God gave man the ability to choose, and He thus knew the possibility that man may choose to disobey. Thus He made a way for man's redemption through His Son.
The Son would take on human flesh, and die in His place. Man would still need to die the sleep of death, but of he met the conditions of salvation, He would be resurrected and not be destroyed by the second death from which there would be no resurrection. Christ therefore died the second death...a death which did not incorporate any hope of a resurrection, a death that literally separated Him from His Father. A substitution.
Click to expand...
I was a Calvinist for 40 years. This study on PSA led me out of Calvinist a couple of years ago. It’s a thesis paper that I’m still adding to and may become a book at sometime.

 
Brakelite said:
First off, I'm no Calvinist. Second, the wages of sin is death. Such an inevitable result of distancing oneself from the life giving power of God through rebellion and sin, is not a reactionary action on God's part, but was given in warning well before sin made an entrance into man's existence. But God gave man the ability to choose, and He thus knew the possibility that man may choose to disobey. Thus He made a way for man's redemption through His Son.
The Son would take on human flesh, and die in His place. Man would still need to die the sleep of death, but of he met the conditions of salvation, He would be resurrected and not be destroyed by the second death from which there would be no resurrection. Christ therefore died the second death...a death which did not incorporate any hope of a resurrection, a death that literally separated Him from His Father. A substitution.
Click to expand...

My "Reactionary" statement revolves around the concept that the Atonement came about because of God's reaction to the sin of man. That man's sin necessitated the Atonement. While that is partially true, it is not all of the "story/narrative".

Adam was peccable. Capable of sin. God placed him in an environment where Adam faced the challenge of choose Himself over His Creator. Satan didn't "sneak" up on Eve to deceive her. God choose not to intervene in man's sin. God well knew what Adam would choose given his environment. It doesn't matter what "side" you're on in this. Calvinisms or Arminian. Both teach the same construct. The flaw in these systems BEGINS with how they construct their theological narrative from the very beginning. I would love to have this conversation but people are so dogmatic about what they've been taught, that this conversation very seldom ever fruitful. Do you remember when Jesus told His disciples that He had many things to tell them but they were not ready to hear them?

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

That is so true. I experienced it in my own life. There things that it took me years to understand because I didn't have the proper foundation in my theology to support them. That is what @civic is witnessing in his life. We all face this. Honest.... moral men CHANGE. Often times that change takes many many years.

The question must be asked as to why God took this approach in His creation. I can tell you that I have contemplated this for a very long time. I've debated it extensively but I have never said much about this among many of you.

God chose His plan because it is the only way to properly create a freewill creature that would willing choose Him. It is the narrative of the willing servant found in the law of Moses. If you remove this aspect of teaching of the Atonement, our theology crumbles and becomes little more than a self serving narrative devised to control other men.

Exo 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
Exo 21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
Exo 21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
Exo 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

This is small part of what I've come to call "The God experience". God has tailored our lives after His own experience.
 

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