If you're going to reject the atonement, be consistent—REJECT IT ALL.

[civic]

In no way, shape or form is PSA a "heresy"

Its the love of God, not the wrath of God in the Atonement.

John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” John further wrote in 1 John 4:9-10, “In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation [atoning sacrifice] for our sins.”

Jesus Christ demonstrated His love for us by dying on the cross. Jesus taught on the night of the Passover that He kept with His disciples before offering Himself as that perfect Passover lamb—the perfect sacrifice for sin: “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends” (John 15:13). John also wrote of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in 1 John 3:16, “By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us.”

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

NEWSFLASH :

The reason for all the videos and cut n pastes on PSA is because you cannot find it in the Bible, its not there. Gods love is demonstrated in the Atonement, not His wrath/anger- Thats made up by PSA advocates. Jesus never taught such a thing and neither did He say the Father did either.

I can quote dozens upon dozens of Scripture supporting it demonstrated Gods love by sending His Son to die for our sins. You cannot find a single verse in the N.T. saying it was Gods wrath/anger upon the Son on the cross but tons of verses saying it was Gods love demonstrated on the cross.

case closed.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

Its the love of God, not the wrath of God in the Atonement.

John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” John further wrote in 1 John 4:9-10, “In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation [atoning sacrifice] for our sins.”

Jesus Christ demonstrated His love for us by dying on the cross. Jesus taught on the night of the Passover that He kept with His disciples before offering Himself as that perfect Passover lamb—the perfect sacrifice for sin: “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends” (John 15:13). John also wrote of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in 1 John 3:16, “By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us.”

hope this helps !!!

Abelard writes:
He is said to have died on account of our transgressions in two
ways: at one time because we transgressed, on account of which he
died, and we committed sin, the penalty of which he bore; at
another, that he might take away our sins by dying, that is, he
swept away the penalty for sins by the price of his death, leading
us into paradise, and through the demonstration of so much
grace ... he drew back our souls from the will to sin and kindled
the highest love of himself. (Ibid., Bk. 2)

In this passage, Abelard appears to endorse the theory of penal
substitution later expounded at length by the Protestant
Reformers. Abelard affirms that Christ bore the punishment for
our sins, thereby removing the punishment from us. The moral
influence of Christ’s death mentioned in the final clause of the
sentence is now seen to be but a part of a more comprehensive
theory – just as it was for Anselm, who also speaks of the influence of
Christ’s example of voluntary suffering (Cur Deus homo? II.11, 18b).
As one facet of a more complex, multifaceted theory, the moral
influence theory makes a valuable contribution to understanding
how the benefits won by Christ’s death come to be appropriated.

--and appreciated

Thanks be to God for the truth of Gal. 1:4:

“[Christ] gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world [or, “age”] according to the will of God and our Father.”

 

[civic]

Strawman

If you are going to make up a false version of the atonement with anger/wrath and not love and sacrifice then you might as well reject it all- I agree with the OP. Thats why I reject PSA, its unbiblical.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Abelard writes:
He is said to have died on account of our transgressions in two
ways: at one time because we transgressed, on account of which he
died, and we committed sin, the penalty of which he bore; at
another, that he might take away our sins by dying, that is, he
swept away the penalty for sins by the price of his death, leading
us into paradise, and through the demonstration of so much
grace ... he drew back our souls from the will to sin and kindled
the highest love of himself. (Ibid., Bk. 2)

In this passage, Abelard appears to endorse the theory of penal
substitution later expounded at length by the Protestant
Reformers. Abelard affirms that Christ bore the punishment for
our sins, thereby removing the punishment from us. The moral
influence of Christ’s death mentioned in the final clause of the
sentence is now seen to be but a part of a more comprehensive
theory – just as it was for Anselm, who also speaks of the influence of
Christ’s example of voluntary suffering (Cur Deus homo? II.11, 18b).
As one facet of a more complex, multifaceted theory, the moral
influence theory makes a valuable contribution to understanding
how the benefits won by Christ’s death come to be appropriated.

--and appreciated

Thanks be to God for the truth of Gal. 1:4:

“[Christ] gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world [or, “age”] according to the will of God and our Father.”

Let me know when you can make your own biblical argument to support the heresy of PSA.

I don't need any sources other than the Bible to refute its false teachings beginning with the teachings of Jesus.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

Let me know when you can make your own biblical argument to support the heresy of PSA.

I don't need any sources other than the Bible to refute its false teachings beginning with the teachings of Jesus.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus died for sinners to be their penal substitute. Future justification and salvation have already been realized now in the current age by faith in the lives of every Christian because Jesus died as our penal substitute and because God raised him from the dead (Rom 5:10; cf. 4:24–25). Evidence of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead is the life-giving and indwelling presence and power of the Spirit living in the hearts of and flowing freely by specific deeds of obedience in the lives of everyone who has been justified by faith (Rom 5:6; 8:1–11; cf. Gal 2:16; 3:13–14; 4:4–6; 5:16, 22). May every preacher far and near preach with absolute clarity the penal substitutionary nature of Jesus’ death for sinners scattered throughout the world.


Are you saying I am incapable of making a biblical case for PSA? Since I have done so-no need to repeat myself over and over again

What does Got Questions say re PSA?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus died for sinners to be their penal substitute. Future justification and salvation have already been realized now in the current age by faith in the lives of every Christian because Jesus died as our penal substitute and because God raised him from the dead (Rom 5:10; cf. 4:24–25). Evidence of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead is the life-giving and indwelling presence and power of the Spirit living in the hearts of and flowing freely by specific deeds of obedience in the lives of everyone who has been justified by faith (Rom 5:6; 8:1–11; cf. Gal 2:16; 3:13–14; 4:4–6; 5:16, 22). May every preacher far and near preach with absolute clarity the penal substitutionary nature of Jesus’ death for sinners scattered throughout the world.


Are you saying I am incapable of making a biblical case for PSA? Since I have done so-no need to repeat myself over and over again

What does Got Questions say re PSA?

I believe that you're using conjecture. For example.....

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There isn't anyone that doesn't believe that Christ dealt with our sins on the cross. What is in question is the necessity you see demanding His suffering at the very "hand of God".

You appeal to God's Justice as the REQUIREMENT of death of Christ when it is based upon Grace and Mercy.

 

[Johann]

Jesus died for sinners to be their penal substitute. Future justification and salvation have already been realized now in the current age by faith in the lives of every Christian because Jesus died as our penal substitute and because God raised him from the dead (Rom 5:10; cf. 4:24–25). Evidence of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead is the life-giving and indwelling presence and power of the Spirit living in the hearts of and flowing freely by specific deeds of obedience in the lives of everyone who has been justified by faith (Rom 5:6; 8:1–11; cf. Gal 2:16; 3:13–14; 4:4–6; 5:16, 22). May every preacher far and near preach with absolute clarity the penal substitutionary nature of Jesus’ death for sinners scattered throughout the world.


Are you saying I am incapable of making a biblical case for PSA? Since I have done so-no need to repeat myself over and over again

What does Got Questions say re PSA?

00:00 - Atonement Theories
03:25 - My Proposal: Recapitulation + Satisfaction
08:08 - 1) Irenaeus
20:05 - 2) Anselm
23:53 - 3) Athanasius
35:15 - 4) The Transfiguration
44:44 - 5) Synthesizing Conclusions

Enjoy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

00:00 - Atonement Theories
03:25 - My Proposal: Recapitulation + Satisfaction
08:08 - 1) Irenaeus
20:05 - 2) Anselm
23:53 - 3) Athanasius
35:15 - 4) The Transfiguration
44:44 - 5) Synthesizing Conclusions

Enjoy.

Notice the word "theory"? There are more than 7. The video limits the scope.

 

[civic]

I believe that you're using conjecture. For example.....

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There isn't anyone that doesn't believe that Christ dealt with our sins on the cross. What is in question is the necessity you see demanding His suffering at the very "hand of God".

You appeal to God's Justice as the REQUIREMENT of death of Christ when it is based upon Grace and Mercy.

Exactly

 

[Johann]

Notice the word "theory"? There are more than 7. The video limits the scope.

I am aware of this.

 

[Diserner]

There isn't anyone that doesn't believe that Christ dealt with our sins on the cross.

This is patently and demonstrably false. And like "free" free will, words are being hijacked and changed.

What is in question is the necessity you see demanding His suffering at the very "hand of God".

God's justice, which you seem to think is just some vague afterthought that God can throw away anytime.

As if God takes bribes.

As if God can just "let it slide."

As if God can just "bend the rules."

As if God can just compromise, and allow unpunished sin, and approve of evil.

Yeah, that's not the God of the Bible.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is patently and demonstrably false. And like "free" free will, words are being hijacked and changed.

Name them and why. Maybe you're misunderstanding.

God's justice, which you seem to think is just some vague afterthought that God can throw away anytime.

As if God takes bribes.

As if God can just "let it slide."

As if God can just "bend the rules."

As if God can just compromise, and allow unpunished sin, and approve of evil.

Yeah, that's not the God of the Bible.

Nope. Justice has its place. Justice demands swift and immediate recompense. Longsuffering contradicts your claims. At least admit this......

However, the idea that God judges his own offspring based upon an absolute balance of Justice is absolutely preposterous. God judges man based upon unbelief.

In fact, YOU... are proof of God's mercy and longsuffering that is opposed to the swift demands the form of "justice" you're appealing to.

I had a an internet friend many many years ago that tried to convince me of this position. He was a good man. I held your position then. You're doing to me what I did to him them. I regret it. His "handle" was mustang. I wish I could apologize to him. I was so wrong. I know you're position well.

 

[civic]

This is patently and demonstrably false. And like "free" free will, words are being hijacked and changed.



God's justice, which you seem to think is just some vague afterthought that God can throw away anytime.

As if God takes bribes.

As if God can just "let it slide."

As if God can just "bend the rules."

As if God can just compromise, and allow unpunished sin, and approve of evil.

Yeah, that's not the God of the Bible.

Where does the NT teach justice was served at the cross? You made it up since the NT never mentioned it was justice just like it never mentioned it was wrath. PSA is made up.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where does the NT teach justice was served at the cross? You made it up since the NT never mentioned it was justice just like it never mentioned it was wrath. PSA is made up.

hope this helps !!!

Just how does a guilt man find comfort in justice? The Justice they present damns.

 

[civic]

Just how does a guilt man find comfort in justice? The Justice they present damns.

Exactly

 

[TomL]

It seems some people on here think Jesus suffered a little bit—but just enough to do something to make sins go away.

Perhaps you can provide a list of anyone who stated that?

 

[civic]

Perhaps you can provide a list of anyone who stated that?

He can’t lol.

 

[TomL]

He can’t lol.

I do not believe he can either