If you're going to reject the atonement, be consistent—REJECT IT ALL.

Brakelite said:
To complete contradiction to the rest of scripture?
Click to expand...
Please forward the verses that support your claim.
Brakelite said:
Your understanding of that small episode whereby Jesus was using an adopted pagan idea to refute Pharisaical ambition and pride, needs revision.
Click to expand...
Please forward the verse(s) that say or even imply that "Jesus was using an adopted pagan idea" during "that small episode". Thanking you in advance.
 
Brakelite said:
To complete contradiction to the rest of scripture? Your understanding of that small episode whereby Jesus was using an adopted pagan idea to refute Pharisaical ambition and pride, needs revision.
Click to expand...

The old pagan genetic fallacy, gotta love it.

Don't like something the Bible says?

Connect it somehow to something pagan, and viola!

You now have a "Get Out of Bible Free" card.

Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
 
Mmmm. So @synergy and @dizerner both believe Jesus didn't actually die on Calvary, except maybe for a few minutes Friday afternoon, but was alive enough shortly after to chat with other 'dead' people in the afterlife. You believe in the pagan idea and philosophy that humans are dual creatures with a living entity trapped inside a body, that never dies but goes to heaven or hell and continues to live but at a different address. Makes the resurrection utterly meaningless. Makes the second coming superfluous. And denies Genesis/creation.
KJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 
Brakelite said:
Mmmm. So @synergy and @dizerner both believe Jesus didn't actually die
Click to expand...

You're the one claiming Jesus is using pagan imagery in his parables, which I find blasphemous.

Jesus talked about the SPIRIT and the FLESH, he was a DICHOTOMIST.

Paul said the body was folded up like a tent, you say in a sort of weird materialistic way, the body literally IS people.

I don't want to be harsh, I was at one time indoctrinated with false arguments and beliefs because they were repetively drilled into me, and it takes time to see our own cognitive dissonance. But materialism literally makes no sense at all from a Biblical paradigm.

Jesus was not ANNIHILATED for my seasons, he did not take a SOUL NAP and wake up a few days later, he did not CEASE TO EXIST.

Jesus experienced what death REALLY is, not a peaceful non-existence, but the wrath of God against all ungodliness.

Say a new prayer, take a fresh look at Scripture, I implore you.

God bless.
 
sethproton said:
what is the contradiction. REvelaion picyures dead people?
Click to expand...
Correct. The Book of Revelation is chalk full.of conscious believers who ask God how much longer in Rev 6:10:

They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

CC: @Brakelite
 
I tend to believe that the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 is factual and accurate. Otherwise why would Jesus have even spoke those words? Remember every word that Jesus spoke - was God Himself speaking. Also, I believe parables were identified as just that - i.e. fictional stories to make a point or several points. Or Jesus would say something like, "To what shall I compare the Kingdom of God?", so we knew that what followed was not necessarily factual. Here in Luke 16, there is no mention of it being a parable nor a comparison, etc., so it appears we can take it as an actual event.

It seems ridiculous that Jesus would need to adopt a pagan idea or story, in order to teach anything. Wouldn't God in the flesh be able to create His own story to teach anything He wanted? If Jesus actually "adopted" pagan ideas here, then I think it would be the only time in all of the gospels that He did such a thing - which would make it totally out of place or even out of character for Jesus to do this. Think about it - He would be accepting pagan ideas or stories to explain the afterlife - when He Himself was the only One who not only had knowledge of the afterlife, but first-hand knowledge, since He pre-existed and was God in the flesh. How is it even possible that pagans would have access to accurate knowledge of the afterlife? And if it wasn't factual, then Jesus would never have used it, giving us false information.

It is more likely to me that the pagans may have borrowed Jesus' story here, and claimed it as their own. Also we do have accounts of other "dead men" speaking. Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration - obviously they were not dead. Samuel spoke with King Saul. John saw and heard the souls of those who were martyred for Jesus in Revelation - they too were speaking.
 
dwight92070 said:
I tend to believe that the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 is factual and accurate. Otherwise why would Jesus have even spoke those words? Remember every word that Jesus spoke - was God Himself speaking. Also, I believe parables were identified as just that - i.e. fictional stories to make a point or several points. Or Jesus would say something like, "To what shall I compare the Kingdom of God?", so we knew that what followed was not necessarily factual. Here in Luke 16, there is no mention of it being a parable nor a comparison, etc., so it appears we can take it as an actual event.

It seems ridiculous that Jesus would need to adopt a pagan idea or story, in order to teach anything. Wouldn't God in the flesh be able to create His own story to teach anything He wanted? If Jesus actually "adopted" pagan ideas here, then I think it would be the only time in all of the gospels that He did such a thing - which would make it totally out of place or even out of character for Jesus to do this. Think about it - He would be accepting pagan ideas or stories to explain the afterlife - when He Himself was the only One who not only had knowledge of the afterlife, but first-hand knowledge, since He pre-existed and was God in the flesh. How is it even possible that pagans would have access to accurate knowledge of the afterlife? And if it wasn't factual, then Jesus would never have used it, giving us false information.

It is more likely to me that the pagans may have borrowed Jesus' story here, and claimed it as their own. Also we do have accounts of other "dead men" speaking. Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration - obviously they were not dead. Samuel spoke with King Saul. John saw and heard the souls of those who were martyred for Jesus in Revelation - they too were speaking.
Click to expand...
ditto
 
dizerner said:
You're the one claiming Jesus is using pagan imagery in his parables, which I find blasphemous.

Jesus talked about the SPIRIT and the FLESH, he was a DICHOTOMIST.

Paul said the body was folded up like a tent, you say in a sort of weird materialistic way, the body literally IS people.

I don't want to be harsh, I was at one time indoctrinated with false arguments and beliefs because they were repetively drilled into me, and it takes time to see our own cognitive dissonance. But materialism literally makes no sense at all from a Biblical paradigm.

Jesus was not ANNIHILATED for my seasons, he did not take a SOUL NAP and wake up a few days later, he did not CEASE TO EXIST.

Jesus experienced what death REALLY is, not a peaceful non-existence, but the wrath of God against all ungodliness.

Say a new prayer, take a fresh look at Scripture, I implore you.

God bless.
Click to expand...
Jesus wasn't tormented forever either. He did sleep in the grave, was resurrected on the third day according to the scriptures. Man is not immortal. Immortality is a gift, granted the redeemed at the second coming, not at death.
KJV 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
 
dizerner said:
You're the one claiming Jesus is using pagan imagery in his parables, which I find blasphemous.

Jesus talked about the SPIRIT and the FLESH, he was a DICHOTOMIST.

Paul said the body was folded up like a tent, you say in a sort of weird materialistic way, the body literally IS people.

I don't want to be harsh, I was at one time indoctrinated with false arguments and beliefs because they were repetively drilled into me, and it takes time to see our own cognitive dissonance. But materialism literally makes no sense at all from a Biblical paradigm.

Jesus was not ANNIHILATED for my seasons, he did not take a SOUL NAP and wake up a few days later, he did not CEASE TO EXIST.

Jesus experienced what death REALLY is, not a peaceful non-existence, but the wrath of God against all ungodliness.

Say a new prayer, take a fresh look at Scripture, I implore you.

God bless.
Click to expand...
Factual? It is of pagan origins, adopted by the Jews since returning from Babylon. The idea and concept in nowhere to be found anywhere in the OT. Oh, except when a necromancer called up a demon masquerading as Samuel at the request of an apostate King, after Samuell said he was finished with Saul. Samuel of course in life would never obey a witch, but in death he responds to a request described by God as an abomination?
Again. Satan is a liar. He was lying when he told Eve she would not die. It is still a lie. And scripture is awash with texts affirming the complete destruction of the wicked, that they will be as if they never existed.

DESTRUCTION
KJV Psalms 145:20
20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
KJV Psalms 101:8
8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.
KJV Psalms 37:38
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV Psalms 92:7
7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
KJV Proverbs 13:13
13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
KJV Proverbs 10:29
29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
KJV Philippians 3:19
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
KJV 1 Timothy 6:9
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
KJV Matthew 7:13
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
PERISH
KJV Psalms 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV Proverbs 19:9
9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
KJV Luke 13:3
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
KJV John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:10
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
KJV 2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
BURNT UP
KJV Matthew 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
KJV Hebrews 6:8
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
CONSUMED
KJV Isaiah 1:28
28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
KJV Psalms 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV Psalms 104:35
35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
DEVOURED
KJV Psalms 21:9
9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
KJV Hebrews 10:27
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
KJV Revelation 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
CUT OFF FROM THE EARTH
KJV Psalms 37:2, 9, 22, 28, 34, 38
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV Proverbs 2:22
22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
PERDITION... UTTER RUIN
KJV Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
KJV 2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
CEASE TO EXIST
KJV Psalms 37:10
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
 
sethproton said:
what is the contradiction. REvelaion picyures dead people?
Click to expand...
Same as the blood crying out to God when Cain killed Abel. There is not millions of dead people under an altar in heaven.
But injustice does cry out for recompense. And God is just and remembers the suffering of His people and will exact retribution. However, that doesn't mean it will be precisely as you think it will be. God is God, He is compassionate and merciful, He is no tyrant as perceived by many. He does not actively punish forever, else where is the justice when there is no end to the punishing?
 
Brakelite said:
Jesus wasn't tormented forever either. He did sleep in the grave, was resurrected on the third day according to the scriptures. Man is not immortal. Immortality is a gift, granted the redeemed at the second coming, not at death.
KJV 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Click to expand...
I don't know about you but when I sleep I still have some level of consciousness. I'm not totally destroyed/nonexistent when I sleep. That aligns perfectly with Revelation where the souls of dead believers are unmistakably conscious to some degree in Heaven.
 
Brakelite said:
Factual? It is of pagan origins, adopted by the Jews since returning from Babylon. The idea and concept in nowhere to be found anywhere in the OT. Oh, except when a necromancer called up a demon masquerading as Samuel at the request of an apostate King, after Samuell said he was finished with Saul. Samuel of course in life would never obey a witch, but in death he responds to a request described by God as an abomination?
Again. Satan is a liar. He was lying when he told Eve she would not die. It is still a lie. And scripture is awash with texts affirming the complete destruction of the wicked, that they will be as if they never existed.

DESTRUCTION
KJV Psalms 145:20
20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
KJV Psalms 101:8
8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.
KJV Psalms 37:38
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV Psalms 92:7
7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
KJV Proverbs 13:13
13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
KJV Proverbs 10:29
29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
KJV Philippians 3:19
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
KJV 1 Timothy 6:9
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
KJV Matthew 7:13
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
PERISH
KJV Psalms 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV Proverbs 19:9
9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
KJV Luke 13:3
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
KJV John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:10
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
KJV 2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
BURNT UP
KJV Matthew 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
KJV Hebrews 6:8
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
CONSUMED
KJV Isaiah 1:28
28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
KJV Psalms 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV Psalms 104:35
35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
DEVOURED
KJV Psalms 21:9
9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
KJV Hebrews 10:27
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
KJV Revelation 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
CUT OFF FROM THE EARTH
KJV Psalms 37:2, 9, 22, 28, 34, 38
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV Proverbs 2:22
22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
PERDITION... UTTER RUIN
KJV Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
KJV 2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
CEASE TO EXIST
KJV Psalms 37:10
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Click to expand...
What about believers? No destruction pending for them as they are recorded, in the Book of Revelation, as being conscious in Heaven right now.
 
Brakelite said:
What do you guys do with Genesis 2:7?
Click to expand...
We praise and worship God and are awestruck at His infinite powers. What do you expect us to do?

(Gen 2:7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
 

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