If you're going to reject the atonement, be consistent—REJECT IT ALL.

It's the only logical conclusion left if you deny Christ fulfilled all righteousness.

YOU have to fulfill it in your own good deeds.



Yes you are, you are robbing it of it's Biblical meaning, making it nothing more than empty show.

If the Cross is not about a true atonement, then you either rob God of his holiness or establish your own.

There's no other option.



This is not how logic works—it's called a genetic fallacy.

The pagans believed in a higher power, so every belief of God is pagan.

The pagans prayed, so every kind of prayer is pagan.

The pagans believed in spirits, so everyone who believes in spirits is pagan.



Problem is, if you deny Jesus faced that wrath for you, Hebrews says there is nothing left but wrath for you.

Trampling on that Blood—saying it was nothing more than just a good man dying.

And nobody but YOU can pay for your sins.

Profanity.

29 How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt for the Son of God,
and profanes the blood of the covenant that made him holy, and insults the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know the one who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Heb. 10:29-31 NET)
You are totally missing the point. I believe that Jesus' Atonement on the Cross was an Expiation of our sins. If I'm not mistaken, you believe that Jesus' Atonement on the Cross was a Propitiation of our sins. Here is a report I forwarded to another Forum about that:

Is Christ the Propitiation or the Expiation concerning the sins of the whole world?

Same verses, different translations of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos):
1 John_2:2 (KJV) "And He is the Propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world."
1 John 2:2 (RSV) "And He is the Expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

What exactly is the correct translation of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos) from the Greek Koine NT? Is it propitiation (appeasing of a deity) or is it an expiation (the acts and offerings for atoning for sins/guilts/trespasses)? The issue at stake here is whether or not God is wrathful/angry at us and must be appeased in order to change his disposition toward us.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament calls the Hebrew equivalent of ἱλασμός as “make an atonement, make a reconciliation, purge.” In Philo and other Greek Jewish literature it means “atonement” or “sin offering.” Both cases fall on the side of Expiation, not the appeasing of a deity.

In fact propitiation, is derived from Classic Greek writings such as Plutarch, who used it to mean “conciliate” or “a means of appeasing”. This occurred about 500 years before Christ, too long ago to justify such a translation.

Also, if we look at the uses of hilasmos (ἱλασμός) in the KJV OT nowhere does ἱλασμός translate to propitiation. These are: Ezekiel 44:27 (“sin offering”), Leviticus 25:9 (“atonement”), Numbers 5:8 (“guilt offering”), Amos 8:14 (“guilt or trespass offering”), Daniel 9:9 (“forgiveness”). The use of hilasmos on the LXX also supports understanding it as atonement and sacrifice for sins, something which changes us and brings about forgiveness, not something which changes God’s disposition toward us.

I'm ok with Lexicons that do not reject the Hebrew OT, the Septuagint, the KJV OT, the RSV definition of ἱλασμός, the ones that do not side with the Classic Plutarch definition of ἱλασμός which is paganistic.

Historically, why was Propitiation so readily accepted by the Christian masses? That's because that idea was born within an overly and extreme forensic legalistic culture foreign to the Biblical authors, and is something which was read into the text. The Biblical atonement is not purely a legal act, but is more of an ontological act which purifies us from sin and reunites humanity with God. There is no legal dilemma if not all are saved yet Christ died for all. God was not punishing Christ on the cross and the punishment of hell is a self-imposed punishment of separation from God by those who do not wish to know Him. God’s judgment is simply Him affirming their choice to reject Divine Love. (John 3:18-21 NKJV — “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Furthermore, propitiation is not consistent with the statements of Romans 5:8 and 1 John 4:9-10 in that God was already well-disposed towards us and for that reason reconciled us to Himself through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. An atonement for cleansing and forgiving sins fits 1 John 1:10-2:2 which is focused on cleansing from sin and ongoing purification through Christ’s Blood, not any questions of legal standing and certainly not a need to earn God’s favor as if there were ever a time He did not look at us favorably.

1 John 4:10 says, “In this is Love, not that we loved God, but He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice (hilasmos) for our sins.” Again, hilasmos here means atoning sacrifice or expiation. It was out of God’s love that God died for us, and it was we who needed to be changed, our wills and dispositions needed to be renewed. There is no hint in the whole context that God was angry at us and punished His Son in our place.

The Cross is the place where atonement was made to reconcile humanity which had turned away from God to the God Who never turned away from us. The atonement justifies, cleanses, redeems, and ransoms. Through the atonement God substitutes for us as He takes death on Himself, death is destroyed, and all will be raised at the Last Day (Judgment Day).

Because God is already favorably disposed towards those for whom Christ died, since His favor is why He provided the atonement in the first place, the interpretation of the word hilasmos as propitiation can be rejected. Christ died as a sacrifice of atonement, to purify us and the creation. He did not die to appease God or bear wrath.

In the final analysis, the penal substitute theory presents God as a Legalistic Judge who demands repayment of debt in order to show mercy. This is not forgiveness nor mercy but retribution.

Conclusion: Propitiation, the appeasing of an irate Deity by offering Him a sacrifice which bears the weight of His wrath may be acceptable in Islam or paganism but it has no place in Christianity.
 
You are totally missing the point. I believe that Jesus' Atonement on the Cross was an Expiation of our sins. If I'm not mistaken, you believe that Jesus' Atonement on the Cross was a Propitiation of our sins. Here is a report I forwarded to another Forum about that:

Is Christ the Propitiation or the Expiation concerning the sins of the whole world?

Same verses, different translations of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos):
1 John_2:2 (KJV) "And He is the Propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world."
1 John 2:2 (RSV) "And He is the Expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

What exactly is the correct translation of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos) from the Greek Koine NT? Is it propitiation (appeasing of a deity) or is it an expiation (the acts and offerings for atoning for sins/guilts/trespasses)? The issue at stake here is whether or not God is wrathful/angry at us and must be appeased in order to change his disposition toward us.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament calls the Hebrew equivalent of ἱλασμός as “make an atonement, make a reconciliation, purge.” In Philo and other Greek Jewish literature it means “atonement” or “sin offering.” Both cases fall on the side of Expiation, not the appeasing of a deity.

In fact propitiation, is derived from Classic Greek writings such as Plutarch, who used it to mean “conciliate” or “a means of appeasing”. This occurred about 500 years before Christ, too long ago to justify such a translation.

Also, if we look at the uses of hilasmos (ἱλασμός) in the KJV OT nowhere does ἱλασμός translate to propitiation. These are: Ezekiel 44:27 (“sin offering”), Leviticus 25:9 (“atonement”), Numbers 5:8 (“guilt offering”), Amos 8:14 (“guilt or trespass offering”), Daniel 9:9 (“forgiveness”). The use of hilasmos on the LXX also supports understanding it as atonement and sacrifice for sins, something which changes us and brings about forgiveness, not something which changes God’s disposition toward us.

I'm ok with Lexicons that do not reject the Hebrew OT, the Septuagint, the KJV OT, the RSV definition of ἱλασμός, the ones that do not side with the Classic Plutarch definition of ἱλασμός which is paganistic.

Historically, why was Propitiation so readily accepted by the Christian masses? That's because that idea was born within an overly and extreme forensic legalistic culture foreign to the Biblical authors, and is something which was read into the text. The Biblical atonement is not purely a legal act, but is more of an ontological act which purifies us from sin and reunites humanity with God. There is no legal dilemma if not all are saved yet Christ died for all. God was not punishing Christ on the cross and the punishment of hell is a self-imposed punishment of separation from God by those who do not wish to know Him. God’s judgment is simply Him affirming their choice to reject Divine Love. (John 3:18-21 NKJV — “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Furthermore, propitiation is not consistent with the statements of Romans 5:8 and 1 John 4:9-10 in that God was already well-disposed towards us and for that reason reconciled us to Himself through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. An atonement for cleansing and forgiving sins fits 1 John 1:10-2:2 which is focused on cleansing from sin and ongoing purification through Christ’s Blood, not any questions of legal standing and certainly not a need to earn God’s favor as if there were ever a time He did not look at us favorably.

1 John 4:10 says, “In this is Love, not that we loved God, but He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice (hilasmos) for our sins.” Again, hilasmos here means atoning sacrifice or expiation. It was out of God’s love that God died for us, and it was we who needed to be changed, our wills and dispositions needed to be renewed. There is no hint in the whole context that God was angry at us and punished His Son in our place.

The Cross is the place where atonement was made to reconcile humanity which had turned away from God to the God Who never turned away from us. The atonement justifies, cleanses, redeems, and ransoms. Through the atonement God substitutes for us as He takes death on Himself, death is destroyed, and all will be raised at the Last Day (Judgment Day).

Because God is already favorably disposed towards those for whom Christ died, since His favor is why He provided the atonement in the first place, the interpretation of the word hilasmos as propitiation can be rejected. Christ died as a sacrifice of atonement, to purify us and the creation. He did not die to appease God or bear wrath.

In the final analysis, the penal substitute theory presents God as a Legalistic Judge who demands repayment of debt in order to show mercy. This is not forgiveness nor mercy but retribution.

Conclusion: Propitiation, the appeasing of an irate Deity by offering Him a sacrifice which bears the weight of His wrath may be acceptable in Islam or paganism but it has no place in Christianity.
Exactly well said brother !

Maybe we should co-write a book @synergy 🤣
 
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A thought to add in. Jesus was tortured, who was behind that . The father.
It is wrath and God sent Him to the cross
Whose wrath? God's or man's under the influence and power of Satan?

Interesting facts...
The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT
Not one time are any of these words used towards our Lord by God.

God Bless
 
Whose wrath? God's or man's under the influence and power of Satan?

Interesting facts...
The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT
Not one time are any of these words used towards our Lord by God.

God Bless
Amen cannot dispute the facts @Joe , they are indisputable.
 
there are none so blind as those who imagine things that are not written in the Bible and believe those things that are not nowhere to be found on the pages of Scripture.
 
This is worth repeating in every thread on PSA by @Joe

1-The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
2-The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
3-The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
4-The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT

Not one time are any of these words used towards our Lord by God.

The above facts in the Bible are Indisputable. Why someone would attempt to argue against the facts above from Gods word is beyond me. As @sethproton use to often say about the calvinist it must be a stronghold.

hope this helps !!!
 
That's where a legal view of the Atonement fails. The ontological Biblical view of the Atonement explains it much better. For example, when Jesus entered Hades (when He died), He stripped it of its powers (how can anything forcefully contain the Word of God?), and led the OT Saints to Heaven. Thus, the way to Heaven for all believers has been cleared through by Jesus.
Mmm. In other words, Jesus didn't die. And if He didn't die, then there is no Atonement, and we are all lost.
 
God also said the following about sacrifices:

11 I am sick of your sacrifices. Don’t bring me any more of them. I don’t want your fat rams; I don’t want to see the blood from your offerings

So a sacrifice by itself is not automatically and always about Christ. It's also what sacrifices we perform in our hearts. When we sacrifice our desires for the advancement of God's Kingdom then His anger against us is soothed.
it was true that sacrfices soothed God, so don't throw that away because Got tired of people using the sacrifice and it became nothing to Them so that we have the need for the sacrifice of Christ. But the first sacrifices still point to His Blood that soothes God unless they cast it under foot.
 
it was true that sacrfices soothed God, so don't throw that away because Got tired of people using the sacrifice and it became nothing to Them so that we have the need for the sacrifice of Christ. But the first sacrifices still point to His Blood that soothes God unless they cast it under foot.
soothes God against us unless they cast it under foot.
 
His body had no heartbeat for hours on the day that he died. Mmm. Looks like He did die. What would make you think that He didn't?
According to you He didn't die, you say He went into hell and talked to folk. That isn't dead. Unless you thing dead people can talk to you.
 
According to you He didn't die, you say He went into hell and talked to folk. That isn't dead. Unless you thing dead people can talk to you.
According to me he did die because His body was pronounced dead. Dead body means someone is dead. That's the standard coroner's definition of death. If you argue against that then you're up against all coroners and our entire legal system. Is that what you really want to do?
 
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