Humility And Calvinism?

[The Rogue Tomato]

1) Do you not believe that God requires something of us?

I just want to see God's reaction when you tell God, "I'm the one who did the work you required that allowed you to save me".

2) Faith is an action, and faith is an absolute necessity, but Paul sets faith as the means of salvation as opposed to works in Eph 2:8-9! Therefore, faith cannot be defined as a “work”, even though it is a required action on our part. You are equivocating the definition of “works” as a human responsibility and action with “works” as a measure of obligating God to necessarily do something.


Doug

I agree faith is not a work, but I'm reading the Bible the way it's written. You free-willers have re-written "This is the work of God" to mean "This is the work required by God". Which means faith is a work.

 

[TibiasDad]

I just want to see God's reaction when you tell God, "I'm the one who did the work you required that allowed you to save me".

This doesn’t answer my question! Do you believe that God requires something of us?

I agree faith is not a work, but I'm reading the Bible the way it's written. You free-willers have re-written "This is the work of God" to mean "This is the work required by God". Which means faith is a work.

What part of equivocation do you not understand? If you agree with me that faith is not a work, then why are you accusing me of saying it is? It’s because you are equivocating!


Doug

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

This doesn’t answer my question! Do you believe that God requires something of us?

God requires something of us, but we are incapable of producing it until and unless He enables us.

What part of equivocation do you not understand? If you agree with me that faith is not a work, then why are you accusing me of saying it is? It’s because you are equivocating!


Doug

Sorry for including you in the "You free-willers" if you disagree with the following. Scroll back and you'll see lots of free-willers claiming "This is the work of God" means "This is the work required by God", which means faith is a work.

 

[Rockson]

Sorry for including you in the "You free-willers" if you disagree with the following. Scroll back and you'll see lots of free-willers claiming "This is the work of God" means "This is the work required by God", which means faith is a work.

Faith is a work of a certain type AND NOT the type that Paul talked about in Eph 2:8,9. Paul was talking about seeking to be saved by the keeping of the works of the Jewish law in passages like in Ephesians.....if you don't want to accept that Jesus actually said we're to do a certain work and you want to reject and malign that then that will be your choice. I'd exhort others however to consider wisely NOT to do so. For he that has an ear to hear see the words of Jesus below,

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” Jn 6:27 NIV

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Jn 6:27 KJV

Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life.... Jn 6:27 ESV

I can put down any number of other translations that say the same thing as well. He also said, WE, WE, WE are to labour to enter into God's rest. Heb 4 It's a work of FAITH not the type of work where you seek to keep the Jewish laws.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Faith is a work of a certain type AND NOT the type that Paul talked about in Eph 2:8,9. Paul was talking about seeking to be saved by the keeping of the works of the Jewish law in passages like in Ephesians.....if you don't want to accept that Jesus actually said we're to do a certain work and you want to reject and malign that then that will be your choice. I'd exhort others however to consider wisely NOT to do so. For he that has an ear to hear see the words of Jesus below,

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” Jn 6:27 NIV

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Jn 6:27 KJV

Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life.... Jn 6:27 ESV

I can put down any number of other translations that say the same thing as well. God Bless.

This is a fallacious argument. I've already dealt with this, so I'm not going to repeat myself.

 

[Rockson]

This is a fallacious argument. I've already dealt with this, so I'm not going to repeat myself.

I'm not asking you to. You're free to do here whatever you want. I trust however readers can see through your duplicity and how you reject and won't even talk about the Jn 6:27 verse.....or at least most of the Calvinists won't . You all jump over to verse 29 and pretend Jesus didn't say ANYTHING that goes contrary to what you claim.

 

[civic]

I'm not asking you to. You're free to do here whatever you want. I trust however readers can see through your duplicity and how you reject and won't even talk about the Jn 6:27 verse.....or at least most of the Calvinists won't . You all jump over to verse 29 and pretend Jesus didn't say ANYTHING that goes contrary to what you claim.

no no no he is not free at all and cannot choose to do otherwise only what God had predetermined him to believe. the same god who has predetermined us as fellow believers to reject and oppose calvinism. truly a god of confusion who causes confusion. that is calvinism from the god who determined what everyone on this forum believes about the bible.

 

[Rockson]

no no no he is not free at all and cannot choose to do otherwise only what God had predetermined him to believe. the same god who has predetermined us as fellow believer to reject and oppose calvinism. truly a god of confusion who causes confusion. that is calvinism from the god who determined what everyone on this forum believes about the bible.

Good statements Civic. And what is that a snap shot of above? So what really do we have here? That would be a Kingdom divided against itself, and we can see that Jesus was NEVER, EVER an advocate or fan or such ! Mk 3:34, Matt 12:25

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I'm not asking you to. You're free to do here whatever you want. I trust however readers can see through your duplicity and how you reject and won't even talk about the Jn 6:27 verse.....or at least most of the Calvinists won't . You all jump over to verse 29 and pretend Jesus didn't say ANYTHING that goes contrary to what you claim.

I have talked about John 6:27. I guess you missed it.

 

[Rockson]

I have talked about John 6:27. I guess you missed it.

So perhaps you would be so kind to give me the post number. I'll review it again.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So perhaps you would be so kind to give me the post number. I'll review it again.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/page-92#post-69041

27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

Jesus is referring to Himself as the food that endures to eternal life. The point is that they were more concerned about eating than Him. This isn't saying you should work to literally eat the flesh of Jesus.

Again, just because they asked, 28 “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Doesn't mean you can translate verse as 29 Jesus answered, “The work God requires is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Jesus answered correctly. It's the work of God to believe in the one he has sent.

 

[TomL]

Whose choice necessitates that John A believes and John B doesn’t?


Doug

And the Calvinist answer is

Drumroll: "God"

 

[Rockson]

Jesus is referring to Himself as the food that endures to eternal life. The point is that they were more concerned about eating than Him. This isn't saying you should work to literally eat the flesh of Jesus.

OK thanks for providing the link and your statements. Now let's examine what you've said,

RT said: "Jesus is referring to himself as the food that endures to eternal life"

My words: But that doesn't address the issue of what THEY were to do. Back to 27,

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, Jn 6:27

The words, but for obviously connects to the words spoken prior where they were told not to work for food BUT FOR ,means they were still to do a certain type of work which was different. It's the work of faith of they themselves believing which is an action term for what THEY were to do.

So if it were like the way you want it to read it would be, Do not work for food that spoils nor work for anything at all! It didn't say that though! He kept alive the fact that they were to work by saying BUT FOR.

Again, just because they asked, 28 “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Doesn't mean you can translate verse as 29 Jesus answered, “The work God requires is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

It most certainly DOES and MUST. For the question they asked him was born from what HE in verse 27 CLEARLY stated that they must do a certain work. That's what Jesus said to them and that's what they asked him about! They were not confused that Jesus told them they needed to do a certain work!

What they didn't know was what that work THEY were to do was! So he told them in verse 29 the work of God THEY WERE TO DO was to carry out the action of believing. believing is an action word (a verb) of something THEY were to do. Believe. God was not going to do their believing for them. They had to do it.

Jesus answered correctly. It's the work of God to believe in the one he has sent.

So then they better stop right there and start doing it right? There's no way you can say no to this therefore proving it was something they needed to do. Not something God would do for them.

So there's really no denying it. Believing is a work that is required of MAN not God. So to readers the other poster may still seek to deny these things. I trust however you see the facts I've laid down above and you view them as credible and worthy of belief. God Bless!

 

[civic]

OK thanks for providing the link and your statements. Now let's examine what you've said,

RT said: "Jesus is referring to himself as the food that endures to eternal life"

My words: But that doesn't address the issue of what THEY were to do. Back to 27,

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, Jn 6:27

The words, but for obviously connects to the words spoken prior where they were told not to work for food BUT FOR ,means they were still to do a certain type of work which was different. It's the work of faith of they themselves believing which is an action term for what THEY were to do.

So if it were like the way you want it to read it would be, Do not work for food that spoils nor work for anything at all! It didn't say that though! He kept alive the fact that they were to work by saying BUT FOR.


It most certainly DOES and MUST. For the question they asked him was born from what HE in verse 27 CLEARLY stated that they must do a certain work. That's what Jesus said to them and that's what they asked him about! They were not confused that Jesus told them they needed to do a certain work!

What they didn't know was what that work THEY were to do was! So he told them in verse 29 the work of God THEY WERE TO DO was to carry out the action of believing. believing is an action word (a verb) of something THEY were to do. Believe. God was not going to do their believing for them. They had to do it.

So then they better stop right there and start doing it right? There's no way you can say no to this therefore proving it was something they needed to do. Not something God would do for them.

So there's really no denying it. Believing is a work that is required of MAN not God. So to readers the other poster may still seek to deny these things. I trust however you see the facts I've laid down above and you view them as credible and worthy of belief. God Bless!

Typical answer with them - the 1 verse ripped from its context or even partial verse trumps all the rest of the surrounding passage and the rest of scripture that opposes that viewpoint. Its the typical mine quoting a passage to squeeze it into, fit into their theology. It happens with single words from a passage to that get redefined to fit their systematic.

I know as I use to do the same thing myself.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

OK thanks for providing the link and your statements. Now let's examine what you've said,

RT said: "Jesus is referring to himself as the food that endures to eternal life"

My words: But that doesn't address the issue of what THEY were to do. Back to 27,

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, Jn 6:27

The words, but for obviously connects to the words spoken prior where they were told not to work for food BUT FOR ,means they were still to do a certain type of work which was different. It's the work of faith of they themselves believing which is an action term for what THEY were to do.

So if it were like the way you want it to read it would be, Do not work for food that spoils nor work for anything at all! It didn't say that though! He kept alive the fact that they were to work by saying BUT FOR.


It most certainly DOES and MUST. For the question they asked him was born from what HE in verse 27 CLEARLY stated that they must do a certain work. That's what Jesus said to them and that's what they asked him about! They were not confused that Jesus told them they needed to do a certain work!

What they didn't know was what that work THEY were to do was! So he told them in verse 29 the work of God THEY WERE TO DO was to carry out the action of believing. believing is an action word (a verb) of something THEY were to do. Believe. God was not going to do their believing for them. They had to do it.

So then they better stop right there and start doing it right? There's no way you can say no to this therefore proving it was something they needed to do. Not something God would do for them.

So there's really no denying it. Believing is a work that is required of MAN not God. So to readers the other poster may still seek to deny these things. I trust however you see the facts I've laid down above and you view them as credible and worthy of belief. God Bless!

I just want to see God's reaction when you tell God, "I'm the one who did the work you required that allowed you to save me".

 

[civic]

I just want to see God's reaction when you tell God, "I'm the one who did the work you required that allowed you to save me".

Its always Gods condition in all 66 books- man must believe to be saved.

 

[Rockson]

I just want to see God's reaction when you tell God, "I'm the one who did the work you required that allowed you to save me".

What do you mean you'd like to see his reaction? If what you're saying and believing is true (which it isn't) he'd have to say Of course you believed that. I ordained that you would!

 

[Rockson]

I just want to see God's reaction when you tell God, "I'm the one who did the work you required that allowed you to save me".

My turn now.....I like to see God's reaction when he says to you because of your saying men didn't have their part to play in believing and they held back from doing so waiting for God to do it in which you claimed that was God's work ...and they don't make heaven their home because of your words for they held back from believing claiming God has got to do it.......

No correction. I don't want to see God rebuke and reprove anyone. This will be done but I won't delight to see it. I'd much rather see you get your thinking straightened out and to hear well done!

 

[civic]

My turn now.....I like to see God's reaction when he says to you because of your saying men didn't have their part to play in believing and they held back from doing so waiting for God to do it in which you claimed that was God's work ...and they don't make heaven their home because of your words for they held back from believing claiming God has got to do it.......

No correction. I don't want to see God rebuke and reprove anyone. This will be done but I won't delight to see it. I'd much rather see you get your thinking straightened out and to hear well done!

Amen

 

[Studyman]

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

And we know why he saved them. He saved them because they had a contrite spirit or that they chose humility. Notice he didn't impart in them contrition and humility AND THEN he saved them. They chose to have humility towards God's word and salvation followed!

God can't put in one actual humility. God can humble his people BUT that IS NOT humility. Deuteronomy 8:3 says God humbled them, and suffered them to hunger, and fed them with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." However that didn't mean they had humility! They could still get offended in pride and complain and murmur to God and begin to worship other gods which they did most of the time and that certainly wasn't humility.

Calvinism says God saves those that he just chooses too. Good to know the way in which his choice is made....do they choose to walk in humility? Do they receive Jesus as their Lord and King and be glad that they've done so! James says that God resists the proud so if he resists them how can he saved them? Impossible! He does NOT put humility in them. He does not put humility in any one! In James 4:6 we read God resists the proud BUT...he gives his GRACE unto the ones that have humility. There's no indication there that God put anything in them relative to salvation at all! Why? Because they have pride. When Jesus was on the cross the two on each side of him....one chose humility and asked for God's mercy and Jesus said he'd be with him now in paradise....the other not. Lk 23:43 God is merely observing and watching what type of spirit the chose ,THEY CHOSE to have.

In Luke 18:19 we read, "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.(in other words he walked in pride) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner."(he embraced humility) "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Notice NO INDICATION God imparted humility or pride in either. God merely observed and responded to whatever spirit THEY CHOSE to have. To actually say God puts humility in one which we would say would be a type of blessing is however to say God would do something he's already said he doesn't do! HE GIVE HIS GRACE....TO.....THE ONE WHO CHOOSES HUMILITY. Not to the ones which haven't. This would mean what Calvinists call their doctrines of Grace aren't actually in truth the doctrines of Grace for grace doesn't work in the way in which they think. That's not to say many Calvinists aren't saved but many things they think about GRACE need to be adjusted.

Well I'm not going to partake of the squabble between two religious sects who are joined to the hip in religious traditions, nevertheless, you make an important distinction between humility and being humbled. Humility is a voluntary action. Whereas, being humbled is not. Most of the time, it is the lack of humility that caused someone to be humbled in the first place. Telling someone who is promoting a falsehood the Truth, is an example of "Humbling them"

A man can choose humility after being humbled, or they can choose to become angry, prideful and resentful.

One example that comes to mind is in Acts.

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

This is the truth given to the Pharisees. They were being "Humbled" by God's Church. Here is how they responded.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

They didn't choose humility after being humbled, rather pride, anger and hatred.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made "that same Jesus", whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Again, the Church of God humbled these men. Here is how they responded.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, "what shall we do"?

These men chose humility after being humbled.

Great post Rockson