Humility And Calvinism?

[The Rogue Tomato]

He is a Calvinist not a free willer rofl

It’s you who is the one cornered using one isolated verse that is in opposition to the rest of the Bible with your biased interpretation

Yes, and you agree with him that faith is the work God requires. Which means faith is a work, and grace is not grace.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Exactly

Aren't you tired of proving my point for me? Like I said, you free willers argue that because they asked what work was required, the answer Jesus gave must mean "This is the work God requires of you, that you believe in Him whom He has sent". And that means believing is a work. Which means grace is not grace.

If you interpret it the way IT ACTUALLY READS, "This is the WORK OF GOD, that you believe in Him whom He has sent", then grace is grace, since it is God working, not you.

 

[TomL]

And there you have it. You are saying faith is a work, which means grace is not grace.

Not in manner Paul uses it

Romans 4:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 3:27 (ESV) — 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Paul arrives at the opposite conclusion as you do

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Not in manner Paul uses it

Romans 4:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 3:27 (ESV) — 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Paul arrives at the opposite conclusion as you do

No, he doesn't. "Therefore it is of faith" does not say "Therefore it is of faith which you achieved by your own free will". And it doesn't say, "Therefore it is of faith that God worked in you". That passage doesn't address at all where the faith comes from, either way.

 

[TomL]

And there you have it. You are saying faith is a work, which means grace is not grace.

Again Paul refutes you

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[TomL]

No, he doesn't. "Therefore it is of faith" does not say "Therefore it is of faith which you achieved by your own free will". And it doesn't say, "Therefore it is of faith that God worked in you". That passage doesn't address at all where the faith comes from, either way.

You are in denial

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The bible does not teach your theology of infused grace

Further both Jesus and Paul refute your theology and state believing is something you must do

 

[civic]

Yes, and you agree with him that faith is the work God requires. Which means faith is a work, and grace is not grace.

No that’s your caricature and misrepresentation

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

No that’s your caricature and misrepresentation

Don't drown swimming in denial. This is from @Rockson, but all you free willers are saying the same thing:

THEY DID NOT and when you do start quoting the passage you start at verse 28! You willfully are skipping past verse 27 and I'm not going to let you get away with it. Here's verse 27 below what Jesus said them NOT THEY, Jesus said it,

Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life John 6:27

He told them there was a certain type of work they were to do and it was the work of faith so stop trying to twist the passage and say it wasn't so!

yet Christ rightly removed man's work from anyplace respecting salvation when He responded "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

As I said you're twisting the passage! He told them there was a certain work THEY WERE to do (verse 27) they asked him in response to what HE SAID, what is the work we shall do to do the work of God and he told them in verse 29. The work of God (that they were to do) (keeping in line with the passage) was to believe. That was the work THEY were to do. Please stop saying otherwise.

As I said, you guys are interpreting that verse to mean "This is the work God requires you to do [to have faith in me]". That makes faith a work. And that means grace is not grace.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. It's right there in black and white above.

 

[TomL]

Don't drown swimming in denial. This is from @Rockson, but all you free willers are saying the same thing:

THEY DID NOT and when you do start quoting the passage you start at verse 28! You willfully are skipping past verse 27 and I'm not going to let you get away with it. Here's verse 27 below what Jesus said them NOT THEY, Jesus said it,

Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life John 6:27

He told them there was a certain type of work they were to do and it was the work of faith so stop trying to twist the passage and say it wasn't so!


As I said you're twisting the passage! He told them there was a certain work THEY WERE to do (verse 27) they asked him in response to what HE SAID, what is the work we shall do to do the work of God and he told them in verse 29. The work of God (that they were to do) (keeping in line with the passage) was to believe. That was the work THEY were to do. Please stop saying otherwise.

As I said, you guys are interpreting that verse to mean "This is the work God requires you to do [to have faith in me]". That makes faith a work. And that means grace is not grace.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. It's right there in black and white above.

As was noted

You are in denial

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The bible does not teach your theology of infused grace

Both Jesus and Paul refute your theology and state believing is something you must do

Acts 16:29–31 (NASB 2020) — 29 And the jailer asked for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas; 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

John 6:27–30 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30 So they said to Him, “What then are You doing as a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work are You performing?

It is not a gift infused in you

when you start allowing scripture to interpret itself, you will see the many errors of Calvinist soteriology

 

[Rockson]

As I said, you guys are interpreting that verse to mean "This is the work God requires you to do [to have faith in me]".

That is what the scripture states looking at the context. That's clear from verses 27 AND 28. The 27 verse was Jesus himself saying it!

Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life John 6:27

For you to take that scripture and twist it to claim it's not saying you're doing a certain work for one thing but I want you to do a certain work for another thing is to blatantly and willfully in denial to the text. Readers beware of the disengeious manner in which Calvinists treat the scriptures.

And that means grace is not grace.

Faith work isn't the same as seeking to be saved by the keeping of the law. (or as you like to camp out on the phrase not by works lest any man should boast) Context is KING but you reject that as you do reject Jn 6:27 + 28. You're saying any type of work we do, of any type whatever is wrong. You're saying it would not therefore be grace. I'll take you now to Heb 4:11 where we read,

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest..." Heb 4:11 To you that sounds like a contradiction. for how can one labor and rest at the same time? It's not a contradiction however to one who rightly divides the word of truth and understands that a work of the flesh that Paul referred to in Eph 2:9 is not the same as a work of faith. A work of FAITH however is something that we must do.....God's not going to do it for us!

Now go back and read Jn 6:27, The context is clear and the same as what I said above! I encourage you not to be hardhearted against a proper understanding of scripture.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. It's right there in black and white above.

So how about read some of the black and white and red that I've shared above?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That is what the scripture states looking at the context. That's clear from verses 27 AND 28. The 27 verse was Jesus himself saying it!

Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life John 6:27

For you to take that scripture and twist it to claim it's not saying you're doing a certain work for one thing but I want you to do a certain work for another thing is to blatantly and willfully in denial to the text. Readers beware of the disengeious manner in which Calvinists treat the scriptures.



Faith work isn't the same as seeking to be saved by the keeping of the law. (or as you like to camp out on the phrase not by works lest any man should boast) Context is KING but you reject that as you do reject Jn 6:27 + 28. You're saying any type of work we do, of any type whatever is wrong. You're saying it would not therefore be grace. I'll take you now to Heb 4:11 where we read,

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest..." Heb 4:11 To you that sounds like a contradiction. for how can one labor and rest at the same time? It's not a contradiction however to one who rightly divides the word of truth and understands that a work of the flesh that Paul referred to in Eph 2:9 is not the same as a work of faith. A work of FAITH however is something that we must do.....God's not going to do it for us!

Now go back and read Jn 6:27, The context is clear and the same as what I said above! I encourage you not to be hardhearted against a proper understanding of scripture.



So how about read some of the black and white and red that I've shared above?

I see. So if you redefine "work" so that "faith work" isn't "work", that solves the problem. You must be a Democrat. They love to redefine things to solve problems. Abortion is "women's health care".

 

[Rockson]

I see. So if you redefine "work" so that "faith work" isn't "work", that solves the problem. You must be a Democrat. They love to redefine things to solve problems. Abortion is "women's health care".

Read Jn 6:27 and explain it and don't run off to verse 29. Again verse 27.

Explain this Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life John 6:27

 

[synergy]

I see. So if you redefine "work" so that "faith work" isn't "work", that solves the problem. You must be a Democrat. They love to redefine things to solve problems. Abortion is "women's health care".

Faith is synergistic. Upon God's gift of salvation and without our willingness to participate in such, faith without works is dead.

In fact, Paul even goes as far as to coin the term "work of faith" (1 Th 1:2-4) to those chosen by God in Christ.

2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers,
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Read Jn 6:27 and explain it and don't run off to verse 29. Again verse 27.

Explain this Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life John 6:27

Sure. What does "labor" mean? It means "work". So, once again, you are saying this means work for your salvation. Therefore grace is not grace.

 

[TomL]

I see. So if you redefine "work" so that "faith work" isn't "work", that solves the problem. You must be a Democrat. They love to redefine things to solve problems. Abortion is "women's health care".

Why do you ignore Paul?

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

According to Paul faith establishes it is by grace

Maybe you are the democrat here.

PS you ignore the words of Jesus as well. He shows there is something you must do.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Why do you ignore Paul?

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

According to Paul faith establishes it is by grace

Maybe you are the democrat here.

Why do you ignore the fact that Romans 4:16 says nothing about where the faith comes from, whether it's the work of God, or the work of man?

 

[TomL]

Sure. What does "labor" mean? It means "work". So, once again, you are saying this means work for your salvation. Therefore grace is not grace.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/humility-and-calvinism.1413/post-69016

 

[TomL]

Why do you ignore the fact that Romans 4:16 says nothing about where the faith comes from, whether it's the work of God, or the work of man?

But both Jesus and Paul do

They say it is something you must do

Neither say nothing or it is not of you

 

[TibiasDad]

I don't know anyone, Calvinist or otherwise, who claims God believes or repents for us. That's a straw man.

Whose choice necessitates that John A believes and John B doesn’t?


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Yes, and you agree with him that faith is the work God requires. Which means faith is a work, and grace is not grace.

1) Do you not believe that God requires something of us?
2) Faith is an action, and faith is an absolute necessity, but Paul sets faith as the means of salvation as opposed to works in Eph 2:8-9! Therefore, faith cannot be defined as a “work”, even though it is a required action on our part. You are equivocating the definition of “works” as a human responsibility and action with “works” as a measure of obligating God to necessarily do something.


Doug